Lotus SUV...

[Brian Braddock]

What makes you think it would work for Lotus? Or that there is no other way forward?

[Bravo73]

We’ve been around this block before (several times). Look at the worldwide market/sales for 2 seater sports cars. Now look at the worldwide market/sales for SUVs. Then look at how a re-badged diesel VW SUV saved Porsche and allowed them to continue to produce cars like the GT3 & GT4. 

Draw your own conclusion. 

[Malcolm Feth]

My only problem with this Lotus SUV s the fact it will be made in China. I can see how Lotus-fans (who usually can afford it) will continue supporting the brand and start buying SUVs from Lotus. Not an Evora or Elise, but still Lotus and wife doesn't compain (too much) anymore As much as I'm not the biggest fan of 'Tuned Beetles', I highly doubt the quality of this car will be anywhere near of Macan ( @Bazza 907 go for it, good choice ).

At the end, as long as they continue making amazing cars like Elise... I don't care about the SUV

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, Bravo73 said:

It is the Porsche lesson in ‘How to save a sports car company’.

You mean the lessons about lying and cheating on emissions tests and the like and how not to cry after being slapped with huge fines?  Or the one about making suspension turrets like fireworks so they pop through the bodywork?  :)

[Bravo73]

No, that’s the VW lesson. Porsche weren’t part of VW at the time that the Cayenne/Toerag saved them. 

[C8RKH]

Nope, it was Porsche who recently got fined for its actions, not for the VW stuff...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/porsche-fined-diesel-emissions-cheating-scandal-stuttgart-a8902921.html

[Bravo73]

Yes. That’s because Porsche were part of VW when they committed the offence. 🤦‍♂️

[Brian Braddock]

1 hour ago, Bravo73 said:

We’ve been around this block before (several times). Look at the worldwide market/sales for 2 seater sports cars. Now look at the worldwide market/sales for SUVs. Then look at how a re-badged diesel VW SUV saved Porsche and allowed them to continue to produce cars like the GT3 & GT4. 

Draw your own conclusion. 

As much as Scotty seems to like your posts you still haven’t answered the question as to why you think it would work for Lotus and why you don’t think there’s any other way. Maybe Scotty knows?

[Brian Braddock]

While it’s somewhat reassuring that no one on this forum can explain the popularity of SUVs it does beg the question why some of the same Lotus stalwarts welcome the arrival of a Lotus SUV?

Best reason given so far appears to be ‘just cos’.

But I welcome some debate at least. The day the idea of a Lotus SUV isn’t stirring up some strong views on here is a very sad day indeed.

[NedaSay]

May I try to answer.The question is why wouldn't it work for Lotus? Not why it would?

If you manage to sell 15k to 25k cars per annum just on sports car all the while preserving exclusivity you let me know how you do it.

Last I checked all the higher echelon of the sports car world have decided to cap in one way or over the production of their sport cars except for Porsche. Porsche can churn out Cayman Boxster and 911 thanks to the buttloads of mommy and daddy carriers that takes the brunt of the development cost for electrical, powertrain, parts bin development. 

There is a need for commonalities and economies of scale everywhere in the automotive world.... That's why everybody buying all Mclarens get pretty much the same interior, the same engine, the same fittings and the same carbon chassis tub, there maybe differences in the pretty dress and some suspension settings and one may have an hybrid element to the powertrain, but if you want your 540c to embarrass a 720s at a redlight you know it is possible with just a single ECU tweak, that is the way McLaren, which is bank rolled by a sovereign fund can do it. Ferrari gets a huge amount of money developing powertrains for Alfa Romeo and Maserati that pays for the development of their engines and parts bin. Aston needed the influx of Mercedes-Benz  to save on parts bin cost and powertrain if only temporarily for the powertrain it seems. Lamborghini's are ... very "Italian" Audis. I could keep going the list goes on... Except for McLaren, all other brand mentioned above are going the SUV route to generate volumes without taking away the exclusivity from the sports cars, which Porsche sort of failed to do, not that it is a bad thing I think to have mass appeal. And I think that Lotus is going to try the same recipy somewhere between exclusivity and mass appeal. 

The SUV can take comfortably 4/5 occupants which means mum or dad can lug the kids and do it in a style that suits them. Also they are easier to get in and out than a sport cars and as one gets older it may be slightly nicer for old bones. And when one as to store its pretty coupé away for winter the SUV is the perfect status runabout.

I mean numbers do not lie SUV sales are trampling sport car sales and are now higher than luxury car sales, that's why even Rolls Royce decided to produce the Cullinan, Which sells like hot cakes. the F, E and I pace are outselling everything else at Jaguar, the trend is also affecting the "Germans". the buyers today have been convinced by marketing people that an SUV was the vehicle to get.

Sometimes it is not about to find another way, sometime you just follow until you find a new road. That's what Lotus and others are doing. Can we please stop dissing them for doing that. And it is not about destroying the heritage of CABC he always did what could keep his company in business, if an SUV or 2 can keep Lotus going, just take it, if it keeps sports cars around that is reason enough to be ok with it.

[ChrisJ]

20 minutes ago, Brian Braddock said:

While it’s somewhat reassuring that no one on this forum can explain the popularity of SUVs it does beg the question why some of the same Lotus stalwarts welcome the arrival of a Lotus SUV?

Best reason given so far appears to be ‘just cos’.

But I welcome some debate at least. The day the idea of a Lotus SUV isn’t stirring up some strong views on here is a very sad day indeed.

I'll have a go as a long time lotus owner (32 years next week).

Not one of the current crop of cars from Lotus interests me. I already have a two seater with my Esprit and do not want another one - and I certainly don't want a track oriented car.

What about the Evora, I hear you ask, that's a four seater. Well when I wanted to buy another Lotus (2014/15) so that the family travel and go to events together, I tried an one, but my kids, then aged 9 and 6, couldn't fit in it at all.

What did I do?

I went out and bought a Lotus Excel - the last car that Lotus built that allowed a family to travel inside. Now that my kids are starting to outgrow (height wise) the Excel - we can still travel four up, but I'd guess that this will only be for another few months - I'd like to continue with a family lotus.

The SUV cannot arrive soon enough for me - and I've been saying this since it was first mentioned as a possibility.

 

 

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Also the lack of an instant reply to Brian’s question may have something to do with this thread being over 4 years and 17 pages old. Most people who were going to post up their opinion on here probably already have.

[Bravo73]

4 hours ago, Brian Braddock said:

While it’s somewhat reassuring that no one on this forum can explain the popularity of SUVs...

Nope, we’ve already been there:

Higher driving position, feeling of safety for the occupants (due to being surrounded by lots of metal), practicality, status, ‘outdoorsy/rugged’ image (even though most will never leave tarmac).

Do you need any more?

[scotty435]

On 05/06/2019 at 23:01, scotty435 said:

Probably get criticised for saying this from the same old crew, but me for one I feel excited that a camo SUV as been spotted near the factory, still a firm believer that the company needs one to survive and its sad to say but the figures tells the truth, sports cars are a dying breed and if it’s as good as the I think it could be, I shouldn’t mind one parked on my drive.

For the benefit of Brian my last post, posted just over a week ago and one of many posted on the subject of SUVs and if I like someone’s post it means that I agree with what they have to say, sure there is no crime in that?

[Brian Braddock]

No crime in liking SUVs either but think you might have been a bit trigger happy liking a post that ducked the question.

Most here seem to think a Lotus SUV is a necessary evil at best so not really cause for celebration. As for why copying Porsche might not work, let’s start with how Porsche and Lotus are very different companies in very different circumstances. Car mags like to create this idea of a rivalry but really there isn’t one. Porsche need to find homes for over 200k high end cars every year. They will stick a Porsche badge on anything in order to hit those numbers and have done. Lotus’s wildest dreams would be to hit 10k cars a year. You can do that profitably with sports cars alone as Ferrari and McLaren have shown. Mazda have sold huge numbers of light, two seater sports cars that could and should be wearing a Lotus badge on the nose.

The Porsche badge remains aspirational for most in a way the Lotus badge simply isn’t and a Lotus SUV will do nothing to change that. A successful hypercar and succession of brilliant desirable supercars just might. The badge is primarily what sells Cayennes and Macans. Porsche never stood for anything like ‘simplify and add lightness’ so an SUV is a strange change of direction not a contradiction of the principles that built the company and the brand. SUVs should have done irreparable harm to the Porsche brand and image but they got lucky and caught a wave no-one saw coming. They also worked out how to make wealthy people even richer with the GT cars which maintains a media buzz around their sportscars a feeding frenzy of demand by bringing in customers who only have a passing interest in cars. It’s a great distraction away from the fact that a once great dedicated sports car maker is now primarily an SUV re-badger with a sideline in sports cars.

In my direct experience with the motor industry, behind the scenes no-one has much of a clue about what’s going to work or not. Lots of experts with hindsight but Porsche had no idea the SUV gamble was going to work. Honda we’re convinced they had to drop performance cars and go full eco. Lotus had no clue the Elise would be such a hit or that the 7 would still be in production today. Nissan’s Qashqai was a complete roll of the dice. JLR thought the Range Rover coupe was going to be a sure fire hit. Same for Hondas new NSX. Porsche thought it was a good idea to ditch the flat 6 from Boxster and Cayman and manual box from the GT3, something they’ve since reversed. 

Its very hard to see how a Lotus SUV could be a huge hit, Porsche have a massive head start, vast economies of scale and a much more aspirational badge. Will anyone care if a Lotus SUV weighs 1600kg (light for an SUV)? What if it’s 2 tons? As always the Lotus will have to be much better and cheaper just to make any kind of dent. Seems like a very tall order to me. 

[Bee]

It's considerably less of a tall order with the resources of the Geely group behind them. Popham's already stated any Lotus SUV will not just be a relabelled affair, saying that Lotus would need to be involved right from the first designs of the underlying platform, to ensure that Lotus objectives could be met. This would suggest that we are looking at something in 2023-2025, based on a platform being co-developed developed now, most likely Volvo. Volvo, of course, would also benefit from a platform better equipped for ride and handling.

 

Lotus now have access to a huge parts bin/shared R&D in order to ensure great design, ergonomics, ICE, luxury etc. are all at class standard. I think that they've already more than proved that the can do the engineering side of things so ride and handling dynamics will no doubt be damned good; I'd imagine that Lotus will already have certain Porsche models in mind as a benchmark. A modern design, but instantly recognisable as a Lotus, will undoubtedly appeal to the vast SUV market, given that Lotus should already be riding on the wave of some serious marketing hype by that stage, hopefully with a great deal of positive press concerning the Type 130, interim model and the all-new models, which will be coming out around the same time.

 

Let's not forget, also, that heading into the mid 2020's, the steamroller of electrification will be ever more relevant; the number of registrations of electric vehicles in the UK was 3,500 in 2013 and more than 224,000 as of May 2019. What will that figure be in 2025? Lotus appear to be heavily investing in this area, and a cracking electric drivetrain could well be its most essential selling point. Consequently, too,  I think that many people will care whether it weighs 1,600kg: that and its sporty aerodynamics (perhaps active, swapping between dynamic downforce and slippery air-streamed)  will make a huge difference to the range!

[The Pits]

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

[Bravo73]

If the SUV platform was developed in a similar manner to the Giulia/Stelvio platform, maybe it could produce a saloon/estate some time in the future?

[nerobi]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

Welcome back doctor!

[Bibs]

Porsche et al have certainly shown there's a market for an SUV with a keyring your friends will be jealous of but is there really a market for one which handles well? Haven't seen many Macan's on trackdays just yet! 

[Dan E]

4 hours ago, The Pits said:

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

He lives! Good to have you back! 

[USAndretti42]

36 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Porsche et al have certainly shown there's a market for an SUV with a keyring your friends will be jealous of but is there really a market for one which handles well? Haven't seen many Macan's on trackdays just yet! 

But manufacturers keep bringing out high-performance versions of their SUVs and trying to make them handle like sports cars.

I have no idea how successful a Lotus SUV will be.  I can see it appealing to people who want a 4-seater car to replace their Elise or Evora when the kids are too big or they have to carry too much stuff around but I don't know how many new customers it will bring.

[Neal H]

I see the appeal of SUV’s - I have one as my daily driver. I don’t however expect it to handle like a sports car, I expect it to be able to cope with a snowy, icy hill in the middle of winter, which is why I only looked at Jeep and Land Rover.

I don’t see the point of ‘performance’ SUV’s, but there’s no denying Porsche and BMW’s success with them. If going this route also works for Lotus, then all power to them if it provides the funds to subsidise their sports car development.

[NedaSay]

10 hours ago, The Pits said:

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

Welcome back sir.

[The Pits]

Never really left but thanks all the same.  Been very busy these past few months. Hoping to get the cars out soon, they are sat in the garage looking very neglected!

Back on topic I'm sure some would argue that Lotus have form with performance through brute force, especially with the Lotus Carlton. I don't remember any attempt to make it any lighter than a regular Vauxhall Carlton. It was fully loaded with every possible electric option. I was fortunate to own one and absolutely fell for its sinister presence and outrageous performance - Testarossa go for half the price. It was at least an ultimate of its kind, so brought pride to the Lotus badge in that way, a modern equivalent might perhaps be what Lamborghini have done with their SUV. It was an incredible, world-beating saloon car, it really was hilariously fast, but a great Lotus? I'm really glad they made it and would love to see more collaborations with major manufacturers, but my first 100 yards up the road in the Elise S1 was more of a revelation. The fun started way before you got to the end of the throttle travel. As with all fast saloons and SUVs until you're using the giant performance you're just in another big saloon or SUV.

I can remember being driven around Goodwood in the Lotus Carlton by former F1 driver Peter Gethin. He got it round in about 1.40, matching the sort of times set by the, then new, Ferrari F355. Pretty remarkable considering it was never meant to be a track car. I managed 1.27.1 two-up in the Exige V6 Cup with less power than either. Let that sink in for a moment. That's 13 seconds a lap over 2.3 miles and I'm no Peter Gethin! Of course road legal tyres have improved massively since the late 90's but there's definitely something to this 'adding lightness' business.