Lotus SUV...

[The Pits 4,405]

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

[Bravo73 1,234]

If the SUV platform was developed in a similar manner to the Giulia/Stelvio platform, maybe it could produce a saloon/estate some time in the future?

[nerobi 219]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

Welcome back doctor!

[Bibs 10,675]

Porsche et al have certainly shown there's a market for an SUV with a keyring your friends will be jealous of but is there really a market for one which handles well? Haven't seen many Macan's on trackdays just yet! 

[Dan E 1,424]

4 hours ago, The Pits said:

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

He lives! Good to have you back! 

[USAndretti42 285]

36 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Porsche et al have certainly shown there's a market for an SUV with a keyring your friends will be jealous of but is there really a market for one which handles well? Haven't seen many Macan's on trackdays just yet! 

But manufacturers keep bringing out high-performance versions of their SUVs and trying to make them handle like sports cars.

I have no idea how successful a Lotus SUV will be.  I can see it appealing to people who want a 4-seater car to replace their Elise or Evora when the kids are too big or they have to carry too much stuff around but I don't know how many new customers it will bring.

[Neal H 819]

I see the appeal of SUV’s - I have one as my daily driver. I don’t however expect it to handle like a sports car, I expect it to be able to cope with a snowy, icy hill in the middle of winter, which is why I only looked at Jeep and Land Rover.

I don’t see the point of ‘performance’ SUV’s, but there’s no denying Porsche and BMW’s success with them. If going this route also works for Lotus, then all power to them if it provides the funds to subsidise their sports car development.

[NedaSay 821]

10 hours ago, The Pits said:

Having had 2 SUV family cars I can say they are occasionally nice places to be but not nice things to drive. Any Lotus SUV that was great to drive (for an SUV) would make me wonder what it would have been like as a saloon.

Welcome back sir.

[The Pits 4,405]

Never really left but thanks all the same.  Been very busy these past few months. Hoping to get the cars out soon, they are sat in the garage looking very neglected!

Back on topic I'm sure some would argue that Lotus have form with performance through brute force, especially with the Lotus Carlton. I don't remember any attempt to make it any lighter than a regular Vauxhall Carlton. It was fully loaded with every possible electric option. I was fortunate to own one and absolutely fell for its sinister presence and outrageous performance - Testarossa go for half the price. It was at least an ultimate of its kind, so brought pride to the Lotus badge in that way, a modern equivalent might perhaps be what Lamborghini have done with their SUV. It was an incredible, world-beating saloon car, it really was hilariously fast, but a great Lotus? I'm really glad they made it and would love to see more collaborations with major manufacturers, but my first 100 yards up the road in the Elise S1 was more of a revelation. The fun started way before you got to the end of the throttle travel. As with all fast saloons and SUVs until you're using the giant performance you're just in another big saloon or SUV.

I can remember being driven around Goodwood in the Lotus Carlton by former F1 driver Peter Gethin. He got it round in about 1.40, matching the sort of times set by the, then new, Ferrari F355. Pretty remarkable considering it was never meant to be a track car. I managed 1.27.1 two-up in the Exige V6 Cup with less power than either. Let that sink in for a moment. That's 13 seconds a lap over 2.3 miles and I'm no Peter Gethin! Of course road legal tyres have improved massively since the late 90's but there's definitely something to this 'adding lightness' business.

[C8RKH 5,796]

5 minutes ago, The Pits said:

I can remember being driven around Goodwood in the Lotus Carlton by former F1 driver Peter Gethin. He got it round in about 1.40, matching the sort of times set by the, then new, Ferrari F355. Pretty remarkable considering it was never meant to be a track car. I managed 1.27.1 two-up in the Exige V6 Cup with less power than either. Let that sink in for a moment. That's 13 seconds a lap over 2.3 miles and I'm no Peter Gethin! Of course road legal tyres have improved massively since the late 90's but there's definitely something to this 'adding lightness' business.

At a Knockhill track day last month there was a guy there in a Range Rover SVR (I think that is what it is called) and he was driving it on track hard chasing M4's, 911's etc.  It just looked wrong - huge centre of gravity on one of the photo's as it was going through a fast but hard right hander i swear you could see the front drivers wheel deflecting out of shape with the stresses going through it. It may have been a trick of the camera but by god you have to ask yourself how many such stresses can that front suspension/steering take before it decides to give up and go for lunch and then I'd hate to think what would happen with that high centre of gravity!  With sheer power, more electronics than in the Space Shuttle, you can make a brick go faster and faster around a track. But at some point you do need to recognise that it is still a brick!

So to your point @The Pits, ever since Colin first went down the route, light has always been right for performance.  Less stress on the components. Faster responses to inputs. Better acceleration. Better braking.  You only need to think about the performance on track of a Lotus, and then add in the bill for the consumables, to realise that Lotus is on to a winner.  The costs of tracking a "performance car" from Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Nissan, McLaren are frightening in comparison. 

[The Pits 4,405]

Yup RSR said that the Nissan GT-R needs new brake pads every 12 laps of the Nurburgring. 12 laps!

I was getting 7 trackdays out of Avon ZZRs at the rear in the Exige fronts went on forever and it went through several annual services on the same brake pads. Evora tyre and brake pad wear is noticeably higher, it increases exponentially with weight but even so, four trackdays later and brake pads still over 50% after the equivalent of more than 40 ring laps. Run an Elise for a year and anyone would think Lotus had invented the everlasting tyre!

We got through a lot of front brake discs and tyres on our Lexus SUV from very gentle road driving. Imagine what an Urus would get through!

[Bazza 907 999]

Jonny, you may not have been away but it's good to see you posting again.  

[ChrisJ 1,403]

@The Pits - wot Bazza said ^^^^^

If you haven't already seen it, there's a thread you might be interested in.

 

 

[NedaSay 821]

@ThePits,

 

Dear Jonny.

Is your return to our humble fold connected in any way, shape or form of payment to the soon to be unveiled Type 130? 

Your return is curiously timely if i may say so myself 

Have you been putting patiently your eggs in a row in order to acquire one of these 

Please say it is so

[oilmagnet477 747]

Not sure how well qualified I am to comment on this issue but I'll add my 2p worth for the hell of it!

I own a 1976 Lotus Elite - at 6'5" it is one of the few Lotuses that I can actually fit in and drive ('drive' is very much in the potential sense, given the state of my rebuild!).

I have 'sat' in an Evora but every time I turned my head to look right, all I could see was roof.

I am extremely jealous of all you purists out there that have the luxury of physical size and budget to be able to afford a current, or even older 'sporty' Lotus in addition to a daily driver.

If a Lotus SUV allows me the chance to have 1 car that has the right badge on it but that meets all my other needs (teenage kids, dogs and Mrs) then why is that so wrong?

If I remember correctly. Colin Chapman's reasoning behind the 1970's wedge fleet was to bring Lotus up to date (and up market from a 'kit car' background) and allow those +2 owners to develop into a bigger car. Isn't that exactly what Lotus are looking to do now?

Unfortunately economics is everything - I want to say 'these days' but I'm pretty sure that @Kimbers and his Dad would say that at Lotus, that has always been the case? Whatever Lotus need to do to be able to afford to keep producing the legend then, IMO, so be it.

[Buddsy 1,573]

On 14/06/2019 at 23:57, Brian Braddock said:

Why is an SUV now considered the only way to make money in the sports car business? Surely there are other possibilities?

I think the fact of the matter is the fast sports cars are becoming more & more irrelevant...at least in europe. 

What I mean by this is cities are increasingly becoming 20 zones.

60mph are being reduced all over the place to 40.

Average speed cameras and black boxes are making a car which can do 70 in second gear a bit pointless dont you think? (obviously I talking road usenot trackday)

 

I feel bragging rights have gone from how fast does it go to whos got the biggest SUV...tell them it will do 200 mph and everyone's happy.

Sacrilege I know but it seems to be the way its going.

Recently I had considered a Exige Roadster but am thinking of going for a Caravelle.

 

buddsy

 

 

[Bazza 907 999]

Spot on Buddsy

Close neighbour has just turned up tonight in a new £250k Aston DBS (680bhp or something like that). I said it's pretty pointless given Ascot high street is a 20 mph zone and she agreed.

 

[Buddsy 1,573]

Thought Id get shot down for my comments above

Id not really mention it else where apart from here.

Just seems the Orwellian 1984 State is tightening its grip everywhere you look, maybe track days will be the only place you will be able to "give it some" in a couple more years time?

So with that said is travelling in comfort/style the only way to go?

 

buddsy 

[Kimbers 1,660]

13 hours ago, oilmagnet477 said:

Unfortunately economics is everything - I want to say 'these days' but I'm pretty sure that @Kimbers and his Dad would say that at Lotus, that has always been the case? Whatever Lotus need to do to be able to afford to keep producing the legend then, IMO, so be it.

Ant, If my dad can fit in an Evora then so can you. There are modifications you can make to drop the seat lower. I know my dad has resorted to removing the seat runners and dropping it down onto its frame. If you are the only driver then who cares that its set in your driving position? There must be things an Engineer can do. Have a chat with the old man, he will tell you how to sort it.

In terms of the SUV, I have been avoiding commenting too much. My opinion may not be the popular one but really? Would anyone want a money making model to not bring in the profit to fund new Sports models? You can't fund new cars with air. You need to make money elsewhere to invest in the high profile but ultimately loss making models. Dad would tell you that this has been true at Lotus for many years. When Dad took over at Lotus in 2006 every Elise made lost a lot of money. The company hadn't made a profit in 12 years. By 2008 they put in their first profit in that time. How? By doing things you wouldn't expect to make money to bring out their Sports cars which were high profile and brought in the profit making business! In that time I used to see Mitsubishi cars parked there, Protons, Toyota's all for ride and handling Engineering. I remember back to the late 80's they had Tanks (Yes Tanks with big guns) in there for a similar thing.  

When Lotus tied in with Talbot to do the Sunbeam everyone said Lotus were mad. They were a Sports car manufacturer. Similarly with the Carlton. These are 2 of the now most sought after cars around.

Lastly, look at other brands. Porsche make 2, Maserati make one. Why not Lotus? 

Lastly. Enjoy it while you can. Things that go Brrrrrmmmmmm will soon be a thing of the past. In our Lifetimes the minority that shout the loudest will get their way and cars that run on engines will cease being made. This is now being accepted as fact by those o us in the industry. Despite cars being less than 20% of the input into greenhouse gasses. We are an easy target and one the Greens have long wanted to stop. And if you actually read the Green Agenda/Manifestos you will see that Buddsy's comment isn't so far off the mark. Extreme left wing policies mixed with disbanding "Large business" and armed forces, replaced with Local Agri-cottage businesses and "Local" defense forces. They see it as Utopia, I see it as the end.

 

[Brian Braddock 12]

Buddsy a fair point but I would conclude that you need get an Exige V6 while you can. Plenty of automotive adventures still to be had out there that might not be available in the near future.

A lot here are making the assumption that a Lotus SUV is guaranteed to be successful. I would challenge that. The Evora makes perfect sense in theory. Reality - people just carried on buying 911s. It’s more likely that much the same will happen again with the Chinese built and engineered Lotus Earthworm vs Macan than it be a runaway success. 3 people here want one just because it’s a Lotus, that’s great but no-one here represents joe public who mostly doesn’t know what a Lotis is.

The question is what would you rather see? Billions wasted on a failed SUV or see Lotus try their luck with a new Esprit?

[Buddsy 1,573]

12 minutes ago, Brian Braddock said:

Buddsy a fair point but I would conclude that you need get an Exige V6 while you can. Plenty of automotive adventures still to be had out there that might not be available in the near future.

Yep sure do! 

12 minutes ago, Brian Braddock said:

but no-one here represents joe public who mostly doesn’t know what a Lotis is.

So had my Esprit out last night. I live in Norwich and chap in petrol station on Plumstead road said "wow thats nice what is it"

"Lotus" I said.

"Wow its like a Ferrari"

Me - "its made in Norwich" "just up the road in Hethel This is an old one though from 1985"

"Are they still making cars?"

"Yes! The Evora, Elise Exige...just up the road in Hethel"

"wow Ive never knew"

 

Thats in Norwich!! from a guy working in a filling station 5 miles from the factory! FFS!

 

buddsy

[red vtec 144]

On ‎15‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 15:09, Brian Braddock said:

While it’s somewhat reassuring that no one on this forum can explain the popularity of SUVs it does beg the question why some of the same Lotus stalwarts welcome the arrival of a Lotus SUV?

Best reason given so far appears to be ‘just cos’.

But I welcome some debate at least. The day the idea of a Lotus SUV isn’t stirring up some strong views on here is a very sad day indeed.

People like SUV's because they are practical. you can put the kids in the back and all there associated crap such as prams etc.. the high position makes it easy to get them in and out. They are comfortable. The truth is most of the time you sit in traffic, so a 600BHP supercar in the real world is pointless, a two seater sportscar doesn't  allow you to get stuff to the dump, pick things up from the hardware store etc...

Porsche didn't get lucky with the SUV, they could see what the market was doing and going. People slag Porsche off, but they are successful for a reason, they build products that people want.

(I don't have an SUV)

[Brian Braddock 12]

Funny then how people seem to like the least practical, least comfortable, 600bhp SUVs the most! No one’s slagging Porsche off they most certainly did get lucky with the rebadged VWs. Ask anyone at Porsche!

[oilmagnet477 747]

5 hours ago, Kimbers said:

Ant, If my dad can fit in an Evora then so can you. There are modifications you can make to drop the seat lower. I know my dad has resorted to removing the seat runners and dropping it down onto its frame. If you are the only driver then who cares that its set in your driving position? There must be things an Engineer can do. Have a chat with the old man, he will tell you how to sort it.

Cheers Ant - one day I may get the chance but until the kids have left home (Tom's 6'8" at 17 ffs!) I don't stand a chance - still think my car of choice would be a late Esprit which I should get in to (with similar seat mods as you describe) as I continue to shrink in my old age - there have to be some advantages to getting old...

4 hours ago, Buddsy said:

Thats in Norwich!!

Nuff said!

[red vtec 144]

12 minutes ago, Brian Braddock said:

Funny then how people seem to like the least practical, least comfortable, 600bhp SUVs the most! No one’s slagging Porsche off they most certainly did get lucky with the rebadged VWs. Ask anyone at Porsche!

I'm well aware the Cayenne, Tourag, Bentenyaga, Q8 etc are all based on the same underlying architecture. Porsche followed the lead of Range Rover with the Sport and BMW with X5. Car companies don't just build a model by sticking a finger in the air, they are well aware of market trends etc. I used to work at Uncle Henrys and used to see a lot of stuff in the R&D which the public never see. Rolls Royce, Lambo etc are now trying to push the upper limits of the SUV sector, they are all seeing how far they can push it. The SUV is just an evolution of the car market. just look at the evolution of cars and you can see how they have morphed to suit the demand. I don't see the point of a 500bhp oil tanker of a car, but others do, but in reality a lot of the SUV are normalish sized vehicles such as Qashqi. If it kicks off in the Gulf and oil becomes short as it did in the 70's a huge number of these Range Rovers etc will be ditched.

I pootle about in an Old Oil burner of a Fiat Stilo, and have just bought a Suzuki Swift Sport,(great little fun car). I also have the Esprit.