Lotus SUV...

[C8RKH]

5 minutes ago, The Pits said:

I can remember being driven around Goodwood in the Lotus Carlton by former F1 driver Peter Gethin. He got it round in about 1.40, matching the sort of times set by the, then new, Ferrari F355. Pretty remarkable considering it was never meant to be a track car. I managed 1.27.1 two-up in the Exige V6 Cup with less power than either. Let that sink in for a moment. That's 13 seconds a lap over 2.3 miles and I'm no Peter Gethin! Of course road legal tyres have improved massively since the late 90's but there's definitely something to this 'adding lightness' business.

At a Knockhill track day last month there was a guy there in a Range Rover SVR (I think that is what it is called) and he was driving it on track hard chasing M4's, 911's etc.  It just looked wrong - huge centre of gravity on one of the photo's as it was going through a fast but hard right hander i swear you could see the front drivers wheel deflecting out of shape with the stresses going through it. It may have been a trick of the camera but by god you have to ask yourself how many such stresses can that front suspension/steering take before it decides to give up and go for lunch and then I'd hate to think what would happen with that high centre of gravity!  With sheer power, more electronics than in the Space Shuttle, you can make a brick go faster and faster around a track. But at some point you do need to recognise that it is still a brick!

So to your point @The Pits, ever since Colin first went down the route, light has always been right for performance.  Less stress on the components. Faster responses to inputs. Better acceleration. Better braking.  You only need to think about the performance on track of a Lotus, and then add in the bill for the consumables, to realise that Lotus is on to a winner.  The costs of tracking a "performance car" from Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Nissan, McLaren are frightening in comparison. 

[The Pits]

Yup RSR said that the Nissan GT-R needs new brake pads every 12 laps of the Nurburgring. 12 laps!

I was getting 7 trackdays out of Avon ZZRs at the rear in the Exige fronts went on forever and it went through several annual services on the same brake pads. Evora tyre and brake pad wear is noticeably higher, it increases exponentially with weight but even so, four trackdays later and brake pads still over 50% after the equivalent of more than 40 ring laps. Run an Elise for a year and anyone would think Lotus had invented the everlasting tyre!

We got through a lot of front brake discs and tyres on our Lexus SUV from very gentle road driving. Imagine what an Urus would get through!

[Bazza 907]

Jonny, you may not have been away but it's good to see you posting again.  

[ChrisJ]

@The Pits - wot Bazza said ^^^^^

If you haven't already seen it, there's a thread you might be interested in.

 

 

[NedaSay]

@ThePits,

 

Dear Jonny.

Is your return to our humble fold connected in any way, shape or form of payment to the soon to be unveiled Type 130? 🤨

Your return is curiously timely if i may say so myself 🤔

Have you been putting patiently your eggs in a row🤑 in order to acquire one of these 😃

Please say it is so🤩

[oilmagnet477]

Not sure how well qualified I am to comment on this issue but I'll add my 2p worth for the hell of it!

I own a 1976 Lotus Elite - at 6'5" it is one of the few Lotuses that I can actually fit in and drive ('drive' is very much in the potential sense, given the state of my rebuild!).

I have 'sat' in an Evora but every time I turned my head to look right, all I could see was roof.

I am extremely jealous of all you purists out there that have the luxury of physical size and budget to be able to afford a current, or even older 'sporty' Lotus in addition to a daily driver.

If a Lotus SUV allows me the chance to have 1 car that has the right badge on it but that meets all my other needs (teenage kids, dogs and Mrs) then why is that so wrong?

If I remember correctly. Colin Chapman's reasoning behind the 1970's wedge fleet was to bring Lotus up to date (and up market from a 'kit car' background) and allow those +2 owners to develop into a bigger car. Isn't that exactly what Lotus are looking to do now?

Unfortunately economics is everything - I want to say 'these days' but I'm pretty sure that @Kimbers and his Dad would say that at Lotus, that has always been the case? Whatever Lotus need to do to be able to afford to keep producing the legend then, IMO, so be it.

[Bazza 907]

Spot on Buddsy

Close neighbour has just turned up tonight in a new £250k Aston DBS (680bhp or something like that). I said it's pretty pointless given Ascot high street is a 20 mph zone and she agreed.

 

[Kimbers]

13 hours ago, oilmagnet477 said:

Unfortunately economics is everything - I want to say 'these days' but I'm pretty sure that @Kimbers and his Dad would say that at Lotus, that has always been the case? Whatever Lotus need to do to be able to afford to keep producing the legend then, IMO, so be it.

Ant, If my dad can fit in an Evora then so can you. There are modifications you can make to drop the seat lower. I know my dad has resorted to removing the seat runners and dropping it down onto its frame. If you are the only driver then who cares that its set in your driving position? There must be things an Engineer can do. Have a chat with the old man, he will tell you how to sort it.

In terms of the SUV, I have been avoiding commenting too much. My opinion may not be the popular one but really? Would anyone want a money making model to not bring in the profit to fund new Sports models? You can't fund new cars with air. You need to make money elsewhere to invest in the high profile but ultimately loss making models. Dad would tell you that this has been true at Lotus for many years. When Dad took over at Lotus in 2006 every Elise made lost a lot of money. The company hadn't made a profit in 12 years. By 2008 they put in their first profit in that time. How? By doing things you wouldn't expect to make money to bring out their Sports cars which were high profile and brought in the profit making business! In that time I used to see Mitsubishi cars parked there, Protons, Toyota's all for ride and handling Engineering. I remember back to the late 80's they had Tanks (Yes Tanks with big guns) in there for a similar thing.  

When Lotus tied in with Talbot to do the Sunbeam everyone said Lotus were mad. They were a Sports car manufacturer. Similarly with the Carlton. These are 2 of the now most sought after cars around.

Lastly, look at other brands. Porsche make 2, Maserati make one. Why not Lotus? 

Lastly. Enjoy it while you can. Things that go Brrrrrmmmmmm will soon be a thing of the past. In our Lifetimes the minority that shout the loudest will get their way and cars that run on engines will cease being made. This is now being accepted as fact by those o us in the industry. Despite cars being less than 20% of the input into greenhouse gasses. We are an easy target and one the Greens have long wanted to stop. And if you actually read the Green Agenda/Manifestos you will see that Buddsy's comment isn't so far off the mark. Extreme left wing policies mixed with disbanding "Large business" and armed forces, replaced with Local Agri-cottage businesses and "Local" defense forces. They see it as Utopia, I see it as the end.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Buddsy a fair point but I would conclude that you need get an Exige V6 while you can. Plenty of automotive adventures still to be had out there that might not be available in the near future.

A lot here are making the assumption that a Lotus SUV is guaranteed to be successful. I would challenge that. The Evora makes perfect sense in theory. Reality - people just carried on buying 911s. It’s more likely that much the same will happen again with the Chinese built and engineered Lotus Earthworm vs Macan than it be a runaway success. 3 people here want one just because it’s a Lotus, that’s great but no-one here represents joe public who mostly doesn’t know what a Lotis is.

The question is what would you rather see? Billions wasted on a failed SUV or see Lotus try their luck with a new Esprit?

[red vtec]

On ‎15‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 15:09, Brian Braddock said:

While it’s somewhat reassuring that no one on this forum can explain the popularity of SUVs it does beg the question why some of the same Lotus stalwarts welcome the arrival of a Lotus SUV?

Best reason given so far appears to be ‘just cos’.

But I welcome some debate at least. The day the idea of a Lotus SUV isn’t stirring up some strong views on here is a very sad day indeed.

People like SUV's because they are practical. you can put the kids in the back and all there associated crap such as prams etc.. the high position makes it easy to get them in and out. They are comfortable. The truth is most of the time you sit in traffic, so a 600BHP supercar in the real world is pointless, a two seater sportscar doesn't  allow you to get stuff to the dump, pick things up from the hardware store etc...

Porsche didn't get lucky with the SUV, they could see what the market was doing and going. People slag Porsche off, but they are successful for a reason, they build products that people want.

(I don't have an SUV)

[Brian Braddock]

Funny then how people seem to like the least practical, least comfortable, 600bhp SUVs the most! No one’s slagging Porsche off they most certainly did get lucky with the rebadged VWs. Ask anyone at Porsche!

[oilmagnet477]

5 hours ago, Kimbers said:

Ant, If my dad can fit in an Evora then so can you. There are modifications you can make to drop the seat lower. I know my dad has resorted to removing the seat runners and dropping it down onto its frame. If you are the only driver then who cares that its set in your driving position? There must be things an Engineer can do. Have a chat with the old man, he will tell you how to sort it.

Cheers Ant - one day I may get the chance but until the kids have left home (Tom's 6'8" at 17 ffs!) I don't stand a chance - still think my car of choice would be a late Esprit which I should get in to (with similar seat mods as you describe) as I continue to shrink in my old age - there have to be some advantages to getting old...

4 hours ago, Buddsy said:

Thats in Norwich!!

Nuff said!

[red vtec]

12 minutes ago, Brian Braddock said:

Funny then how people seem to like the least practical, least comfortable, 600bhp SUVs the most! No one’s slagging Porsche off they most certainly did get lucky with the rebadged VWs. Ask anyone at Porsche!

I'm well aware the Cayenne, Tourag, Bentenyaga, Q8 etc are all based on the same underlying architecture. Porsche followed the lead of Range Rover with the Sport and BMW with X5. Car companies don't just build a model by sticking a finger in the air, they are well aware of market trends etc. I used to work at Uncle Henrys and used to see a lot of stuff in the R&D which the public never see. Rolls Royce, Lambo etc are now trying to push the upper limits of the SUV sector, they are all seeing how far they can push it. The SUV is just an evolution of the car market. just look at the evolution of cars and you can see how they have morphed to suit the demand. I don't see the point of a 500bhp oil tanker of a car, but others do, but in reality a lot of the SUV are normalish sized vehicles such as Qashqi. If it kicks off in the Gulf and oil becomes short as it did in the 70's a huge number of these Range Rovers etc will be ditched.

I pootle about in an Old Oil burner of a Fiat Stilo, and have just bought a Suzuki Swift Sport,(great little fun car). I also have the Esprit.

[Kimbers]

5 hours ago, Brian Braddock said:

joe public who mostly doesn’t know what a Lotis is.

I would argue that the Evora is a successful car. It is well loved and has a whole raft of new customers who haven't bought Lotus before. I don't know your history but have you owned one? Driven one? Because it says you have a Panther Solo..... Which I had to look up. It may just be the Evora isn't for you. However it is definitely for me and it is the First Lotus and numerous American muscle cars and other sports cars I have owned that my wife will drive. So another new convert.

After being in the Motor Industry a mere 25 years at various OEM's Dealers and other positions (Including Consultations for the Govt a while back), I can honest say you are wrong. Lotus need a boost of income right now and to do that they need a profit base. That has never come from Sports cars due to the high development costs compared to the numbers they will sell. Ferrari do it because they charge £200,000 + For their cars. Porsche do it because they have the vile Boxer, which is sold in huge numbers....plus an SUV which is really popular (And expensive) especially with Football typed. I just drove round London last week. The number of Porsche and Maserati SUV's I saw in Surrey were off the chart!

Lotus can absolutely do this and will do. If it's based on the Volvo SUV's which we assume it will be, then it will be from an excellent base unit that is already hugely popular. Add in Lotus DNA, a nice engine, handling and ride, some aggressive looks and Bob will be your uncle and fanny your aunt! I'm not saying it will be for everyone. I wouldn't want one. But I do think spreading your wings to make money is a good thing to do.

Good luck to them.

[Brian Braddock]

I was at Nissan at the time of the Qashqai launch and I can tell you first hand that they never had any idea that it was going to be such a massive hit. It was a total punt to nothing after years of struggling to gain C-segment market share! The timing was more luck than judgement.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Brian Braddock

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Can you post up some piccies of your Panther Solo? I remember when it was launched with its rotating lights and its Sierra Cosworth engine. It was widely lauded by the press and expected to become a great success. Sounds familiar!

[C8RKH]

On 17/06/2019 at 22:26, Bazza 907 said:

Spot on Buddsy

Close neighbour has just turned up tonight in a new £250k Aston DBS (680bhp or something like that). I said it's pretty pointless given Ascot high street is a 20 mph zone and she agreed.

 

Cars like that are now bought for two reasons only in my opinion (1) to show off how wealthy you are and (2) instead of or to complement Art/Expensive Jewellery/etc.  They are now adornments - in times gone by people would count the number of rooms/windows in a house. The number of servants employed. The number of acres of land, etc. to judge someones wealth. Nowadays, it is the number of watches, the £1m hifi, the statement cars in the drive. 

On 18/06/2019 at 09:37, Kimbers said:

And if you actually read the Green Agenda/Manifestos you will see that Buddsy's comment isn't so far off the mark. Extreme left wing policies mixed with disbanding "Large business" and armed forces, replaced with Local Agri-cottage businesses and "Local" defense forces. They see it as Utopia, I see it as the end.

These people are taking us back to the middle ages and before we know it modern medicine will be banned and we'll all die from the pox.  There will be a backlash, just not sure when....

Right now though, I don't care.  Had finished all I needed to do yesterday at 2000. So just picked up my Evora car keys, popped my head round the living room door to say "bye" to the missus and just went out for a 2 hour drive to nowhere in particular. The evening summer sun was lovely. The roads were even more empty than usual, and the sound of my ASBO loud 410 Sports exhaust, at almost 7000 rpm, bouncing back around the hills and in the forests I was driving in was just immense.  Oh, and I used just over a half tank of fuel somehow! I'm enjoying it whilst I can. As often as I can!

[Kimbers]

Of course you must have been in second Gear at best @C8RKH. As anything else you would be far exceeding the speed limit at 7000 revs

[C8RKH]

13 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

Of course you must have been in second Gear at best @C8RKH. As anything else you would be far exceeding the speed limit at 7000 revs

Of course. That's why I used half a tank of fuel so quickly and less gear changes wear out the clutch in less time! 

[Giniw]

Unless of course if you have powerslid for the whole time!!

[Bibs]

https://www.motor1.com/news/356257/lotus-suv-mule-spied/

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Hmm, 031 is 130 written backwards. Is this the new Type 130 hypercar?

[Giniw]

@Bibs > nice paintwork!

[NedaSay]

That mule is using Lynk & Co 01 skin,  but the wheel arches are quite large and the wheel base is different and the body width is clearly different from the chinese-swedish donor vehicle. So to "reassure" the SUV haters here,  they are not doing chassis tune for Lynk & Co, it is the Lotus SUV underneath, and  from the pics published on Motor1 looks like there's a lot of aluminium under the skin at the back be a powertrain/dynamics mule and no exhaust pipe visible so full EV. 

The plan is moving full speed ahead for the new product blitz.... By my count Lotus is developing 3 brand new vehicles concurrently, the Type 130 being in final stages, the New Sport Car following closely behind if not actually being well ahead and just postponed for the sake of product release, and the SUV... But Popham and co have set up a smoke screen saying the company would replace its sports cars first so  it would mean that there's at least one other car in early phase of development (with design spec already frozen)

So lets recap, initial budget for 3/4 vehicles, a factory overhaul, a new "shared" production unit in China,  a new dedicated R&D unit in China, new design studio and engineering and production unit in the UK, a satellite procurement office in Sweden. I'm starting to think that the mooted 1.9B USD is actually a shy estimate. Even with all the synergies the group does offer and massive components sharing between all future vehicles and lotus legendary ability to deliver development program on a dime... This number seems low.

 

[chipp]

5 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Hmm, 031 is 130 written backwards. Is this the new Type 130 hypercar?

I saw two different numbered mules so probably not the 130.

 

chipp