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Qavion

Check Engine Light but no faults in Freescan

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Error 65 relates to the primary (low impedance / peak and hold) injectors. The ECU measures the current when energizing the Injectors. After "sensing" that the Injectors are open (high current ) the current through the injectors is reduced to keep them open.

The resistance of the primaries should be around 2.8 ohm each (from memory).

 

Code 65 is thrown in when the opening current is not reached. Also the battery voltage has to be more than 9 volts and the fault has to excist for more than 20 sec.

 

Did you/someone change your primay injectors?

 

Check the resitance of each injector and also the wires. Clean all contacts.

If the resistance in the injector circuit is too high than the ECU does not sense the opening (peak) current.

 

 

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To answer one question...are my wastegate and secondary injector at zero value all the time?  Yes, they are indeed zero for the entire ride times.  All my log files show this value.

 

Have my primary injectors been change?  Yes, about 10 years ago by a shop in Florida.

 

I noticed a smell yesterday while driving home.  It wasn't a gas smell (I keep the windows down to listen to the engine) since I was checking on the o ring leak at the fuel pump.  I wasn't sure if I smelling something outside or the car.  I thought it was an electrical smell.

 

I checked the fuel pump for gas leaks and the rollover valve since the yellow tubing disintegrated.  I have now capped the return to the charcoal canister as a result.  Going to take some work to buy the new yellow tubing and route it correctly.  That's another project for later after the code 65 is resolved.

 

I also checked the injectors and there seems to be some build up around the 1st injector (closest to the drivers side/front of the car).  The rear two injectors are routed different and harder to see. 

 

To clean the contacts, do you just pull the electrical lead at the top and use contact cleaner?  What brand contact cleaner do you recommend or is their any other type of cleaner available that works? 

 

The only work done in relation to the fuel system was the new Bosch fuel pump, new fuel filter and new fuel pressure regulator valve (Airtex) on the fuel injector rail. 

 

Are the fuel pump relays available through JAE?

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Are the fuel pump relays available through JAE?

 

 

I'm sure the fuel pump relay will be a standard type relay (Your local auto electrician should have one)., but see my comment below on interchanging relays.

 

 

To answer one question...are my wastegate and secondary injector at zero value all the time?  Yes, they are indeed zero for the entire ride times.  All my log files show this value.

 

 

Strange. You would think if you were getting these values, your car would be running a lot worse. Does your turbo boost seem normal? With the car warmed up, are you getting more boost than the mechanically set boost level (i.e. 0.65)?

 

If you look at the diagram on the previous page, you can see that 12 volts is provided to the following devices via the 10 amp solenoid fuse:

 

Wastegate solenoid

EBPV solenoid

Throttle Jack Solenoid

 

We know you have deactivated the EBPV and the Throttle Jack. I'm wondering if the solenoids for these were working before. Anyway, the 10amp fuse still powers the wastegate solenoid. If you are not getting any Freescan values for the wastegate, perhaps the fuse has blown, causing the wastegate solenoid to not work, or perhaps the wastegate solenoid itself is faulty. Anyway, make sure the solenoid fuse is not open circuit (check with the fuse removed). Perhaps you could make sure voltage (12V) is available to the fuse, too. Check the fuse holder contact which has the brown wire attached to it (the hot side), putting the other meter to earth (engine). The ignition may need to be on for the voltage check. Unfortunately, I don't think you can interchange the wastegate solenoid with anything (all the solenoids seem to have a different Lotus part number). Anyway, you could clean and reseat the electrical plug on the solenoid. If the problem still persists, perhaps you could do wiring checks between the ECU and the wastegate solenoid.

 

You would think the injectors showing zero %, too, would cause more problems than you have. Anyway, if you look at the circuit, you can see the components involved.

 

Fuel pump fuse: we know this is ok because your fuel pump is running

Fuel pump relay: we know this is working because your fuel pump is running, but it may be offering a higher than normal resistance. You could try swapping this relay with the solenoid relay to see if it makes any difference (the contacts of the solenoid relay in its normal position are not being used in your current setup (unless you have an electric chargecooler pump on that circuit like I have).

Secondary Injector Resistor (check that this is seated properly and that there is resistance across pins 4 and 6).

Secondary Injectors: You said that your engine was running smoothly at high rpms. I think these injectors cut in at about 4000rpm. Anyway, check the resistance and clean the pins with an electrical spray which doesn't leave a residue (e.g. isopropyl alcohol)

Primary Injectors: As you say, some are hard to get to, but check resistances and clean the plugs if you can.

 

Hopefully you can find something obviously wrong. If the car does run normally after all these checks, you might not know what actually fixed the problem :P

 

Cheers

Ian.

Edited by Qavion

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Turbo question: I'm only getting about .5 bar boost.  I'm going to need a new turbo unit according to WC Engineering so that could explain why the secondary injector are not online.  My battery is only at 11.2 to 11.8 volts when it should be reading 13 plus like it did yesterday.  I'm taking the battery off tonight and charging it overnight to see if the alternator is still draining the battery.

 

I can get the regulator for less than $40 US dollars, could that possibly fix the battery drain?  Do I need to replace the Plenum gaskets with new gaskets if I decide to go with replacing the regulator?  New alternator is $700 US, yikes!

 

I will try to clean the injectors as well.  Also try to get to the fuses and relays. 

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I'm going to need a new turbo unit according to WC Engineering

 

 

Whoah.. .Why did WC Engineering say you needed a new turbo? If you're only getting .5 boost, it could be something simple causing the problem (one or more of the following):

 

Wastegate  (manual) setting (almost no cost depending on the method)

Wastegate solenoid (a few hundred dollars... or may be cheaper if someone has found a substitute?)

Wastegate solenoid power ($1 fuse)

ECU holding back the boost (which it will often do when the CEL is illuminated)

 

My battery is only at 11.2 to 11.8 volts when it should be reading 13 plus like it did yesterday.

 

 

 

Did you take the readings with the engine running this time? It can sometimes read over 13 after a fresh charge (engine off). But usually it needs to have the alternator running to get 13 plus volts. Anyway, if the alternator hasn't been looked at for a few years, it might be a good idea to check it out. Unfortunately, if your plenum has been sealed with more than just a gasket, it could involve some extra expense. My gasket is only sealed on one side (I don't know if this is normal, but it's proved very handy). Perhaps it would just be easier to get an electrician to check out the alternator charging before going ahead with a regulator/brush change (Are you a member of a breakdown service?).

 

Re that earlier suggestion about swapping relays... I think they are the same on my '89 SE. I'm not sure if they are the same on later models. Make sure they have the same configuration and power handling. There is often a diagram on the relay case.

 

Hope this helps

Cheers

Ian.

Edited by Qavion

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Do I need to replace the Plenum gaskets with new gaskets if I decide to go with replacing the regulator?

 

 

There is only one gasket. Note that the plenum is held in by some very long bolts (2 of them have a different length). The lower bolt on the brace only needs to be loosened (don't forget to tighten it up afterwards... I've done that a few times). There are lots of washers and P clips and things, so careful not to drop those or forget when they go. Actually, you don't need to remove the bolts from the p clips completely, but make sure the bolts don't fall out as you swing the plenum out of the way. 

 

I don't know if the plenum bolts are torqued to a particular value, but remember that they are screwed into aluminium. Don't overtighten them. 

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P.S. Another possibility regarding low boost could be the wastegate actuator capsule. The internal diaphragm could be a little weak. If you run out of adjustment on the wastegate actuator, it may be time for a new wastegate actuator, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's get rid of that CEL light first. Chances are, it's stopping the turbo from reaching full boost.

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Ian,

 

I'm working on getting the CEL issue resolved first. 

 

The battery check was done while the car was idling from 2000 rpm down to 1100 rpm for 5 minutes..  Right now, the battery is charging slowly overnight.  I'm checking to see if the battery will go back up to the 13v or higher while running.  I have a strong feeling the alternator is done.  Not sure about rebuilding the alternator either with a new regulator and brushes yet.  Is there one wire alternator replacement that can be fitting in it's place?

 

Can you pull out an alternator without removing the plenum?  Your prior posts suggestion that it needs to come off with some extra work and careful attention on the p clips and different size bolts.

 

I checked all the relays (no corrosion and very clean) and fuses (very clean).  The injectors look good as well.  I'm thinking the alternator is real issue at the moment.

 

Unfortunately, my work is getting in the way of working on the car!  Got a new rheostat for the dimmer light on the console and center panel.  Something that has been bugging me.

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I can't offer you advice with an alternator replacement. Never had to do one (I have about 50,000 (known) miles on my car). I can't imagine it would be easy, especially messing around with the drive belt... getting the right tension, making sure the belt doesn't slip off the lower pulley.... I don't think you can see the lower pulley even climbing on top of the engine (?)

 

Regulators are notorious for having meltdowns on Lotus Esprits. This would always be a first course of action. I would only consider changing an alternator if the bearings had gone or there was nothing left of the sliprings (The brushes are made of a material much softer than the sliprings, so the sliprings won't wear out in a hurry).

 

I can't imagine changing the regulator and bushes without removing the plenum. You couldn't see what you were doing. You'd be 10 times more likely to drop screws and washers into the innards of the alternator or into the hidden recesses of the engine bay. I'm not even sure if the regulator mounting screws are short enough to come out without hitting the plenum (?). You can try, but you'd probably need an awfully fancy tool to get the left screw out (unless you have hex or allen headed bolts holding the regulator in on your car). The first time my regulator needed to be changed (or was it the second), I showed my local mechanic/sparky where the regulator was and he refused to do with the plenum on.

 

If you have an MOT check coming up, I understand your need for speed, but if you're not in a hurry, you will probably get the job done for a whole lot less. Did you check with your local parts supplier for prices on a gasket and sealant?

 

I'm mentioning the things that can go wrong because of Murphy's Law. If you know the potential problems, you can stop them happening. For example, the two topmost plenum bolts are a different size. The rest are the same size.

 

I checked all the relays (no corrosion and very clean)

 

 


 

It's the internal contacts which may be pitted/worn. I'm guessing you didn't remove the cases? I'm still waiting for my fuel relay to arrive (it cost less than U$5 online not including postage).

 

Cheers

Ian.

Edited by Qavion

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For reference, the plenum gasket has Lotus P/N A910E1475F.

 

From DeRoures it is £11.02 plus postage. From Bell&Colville UKP £13.22 plus postage. SJSportscars have a non-Lotus replacement for £6.50 plus postage.

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If you need an alternater: Bosch AL49X

Available from Rockauto (from memory $150), only need to turn the back (reposition) which is a matter of undoing 4 bolts, rotatate te rear and fitting the 4 bolts again.

Check your injectors and wiring first for resistance.

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http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/14437-alternator-bosch-al49x-at-oreillys/

 

Do you have to change the pulley over and get a longer belt?

 

Sounds complicated...

 

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/72900-alternator-and-pulley/

Edited by Qavion

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My update so far...

 

Took out the alternator and yes indeed it is dead.  I'm having it rebuilt and gutted.  I got the regulator from JAE.  The outer shell is about the only thing that will be used.  Nice to know my new ECM (also from JAE) detected this error correctly.

 

I'm hoping to get my newly refurbished alternator by later today or possibly tomorrow.  Thanks for recommending rebuilding the original unit.

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Took out the alternator and yes indeed it is dead.  I'm having it rebuilt and gutted.

 

 

I'm surprised the whole thing was dead, Bill. Were you able to get the alternator out without removing the plenum? .

 

Thinking aloud about my problem:

 

I'm currently contemplating what to do next with my car. I'm almost afraid to put a new ECU base unit in (even though I have one ready to install). The fact that I got an identical defect with the first new ECU is worrying. i.e. car works fine during warm up and first few minutes of driving, then the car starts hesitating, the CEL comes on and I lose all comms via Freescan (and no faults are logged). Is something blowing up the ECU or is there something wrong with the Memcal.

 

After the first ECU change, I replaced the alternator regulator. Could the previously faulty regulator have put too much voltage into the original and new ECU at higher rpms? (i.e. even though the regulator is new, the damage still exists in the current ECU) Or is something else affecting the ECU?

 

I've checked the primary and secondary injector resistances.

I've checked the secondary injector resistor (resistance between pins 1 and 2 match the manual)

I've resoldered some of the pins on the ECU chip holder on the Memcal

I've replaced the fuel relay.

I've checked the fuse for the ECU.

 

Are there any other high voltages passing through the ECU which could damage it?

 

I have the feeling that what I've been doing has not really been addressing the issue, just skirting around it. Yes, new ECU base units have been known to be faulty ex-factory (ex-refurbishment), but the original fault is identical to the current fault.

 

Anyway, when I get the chance, I'll see if my latest maintenance efforts have been fruitful.... My car is currently garaged away from home... and my other cars are all broken, too  :help:   ...so it may not be for a while.

 

(EDIT: I just found my old SE chip... I currently have a #2 chip. If I put the original back, at least I can take the chip out of the equation....but would a chip cause Freescan to go no-comms?)

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We took the plenum off to remove it.  I was able to have the alternator completely rebuilt in one day (today was that day).  All new bearings, brushes, resin, stater and repainted.  He even hooked it up on the workbench and it displayed 14 plus volts.   My original part number had faded from the label.  He was able to find the exact part under a Motorola alternator catalog which apparently Valeo sourced this from Motorola.  The part number stated for Lotus racing.

 

I could only get the plenum gasket removed (lots of scraping of the old gasket) and then put the new gasket (from JAE) with gasket sealer back on.  The alternator is in place on the one mounting bolt.  Tomorrow, we need to jack up the car to get the belt from the bottom while my neighbor gets it from top and together tension it.  It's almost back together!.

 

Man the non-comm issue is a nightmare!  My original ECM was taken out by something as the CEL only came on for maybe 10 seconds and then never showed up again.  Once I replaced the ECM, that CEL lit up like a Christmas tree and stayed on until I took it to JW Engineering to kill the Code 41.  That's when the Code 65 trip within 5 miles of leaving JW Engineering.  It is my suspicion that the Code 41 was masking the Code 65 as my alternator was most likely slowing dying.  It wasn't until about 75 miles that I smell the electrical smell of the alternator (the black goo).  The alternator rebuild was $249 plus tax.  The guy was really proud of his work and spent extra time showing me what was done and how he found the part numbers in the catalogs.

 

My thinking (and yes that's a dangerous thing for me to do) is my fuel pump, fuel filter, battery, IAC, ECM and fuel pressure regulator replacements were actually being impacted by the Alternator not supply enough juice to the overall system.  I'll know more tomorrow night after the belt is placed and tensioned.  I'll free scan it to see if there's any usual things going on.

 

I'm just trying to stop the CEL from producing a  code 65.  I think I would be okay with Code 26 (or something else hopefully less dramatic).  Although I am not happy with the time and cash it took replacing the aforementioned parts,  I feel better that these parts won't be failing anytime soon in the future. 

 

My next battle will be emissions after the CEL issue is resolved.

Edited by bogle

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I don't know why I put JW Engineering- Again!.  It is WC Engineering in Monee, IL.  Perhaps it's because his name is John Welch.

Anyway, without his help I would have never seen the Code 65 letting me know my alternator was failing.

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Yes, that's what I'm planning on doing but depends on our schedules. 

 

I need to get a volt meter and measure the resistance across the injectors.

2 to 3 k for the primaries and 14k for secondary.  I asked him if one injectors bad, does that mean the rest will eventually fail?

 

What's weird is my Freescan logs show sporadic brief secondary injection.  Not sure what this means?  But my code 65 is popping up a lot quicker now within 5 minutes of start up.

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I need to get a volt meter and measure the resistance across the injectors.

2 to 3 k for the primaries and 14k for secondary.

 

 

If it is 2 to 3k, you have serious problems :P

 

I think you mean approx 2 ohms for the primaries, 16 ohms for the secondaries.

 

Probably now that you have a reliable voltage source, the code 65 prerequisite of "voltage greater than 9 volts" is satisfied more often :)

 

I'm trying to make sense of the Code 65 logic in the manual. Just recapping....

 

1) 4 amp injector driver current not reached on either circuit

2) Battery voltage greater than 9 volts

3) Injectors commanded ON longer than calibrated pulse width

4) Above conditions met for 20 seconds.

 

What's weird is my Freescan logs show sporadic brief secondary injection.  Not sure what this means? 

 

 

 

The manual does say that Code 65 is related to the primary injectors only (However, see my later comments). The fault is set when there is low current in the primary injector circuits. The ECU is controlling the current, so you would think your new ECU would be doing that well. The basic power for the injectors is supplied by the fuel relay. I wonder if the power to/from the relay is being dragged down somehow? You have a new pump, I recall, so it shouldn't be that.

Is there any way you can check the current flowing through the fuel pump fuse with the engine running? Note that this is beyond the capability of most cheap multimeters. I get about 13amps flowing through my fuel pump fuse (engine not running, but pump running). Note that the fuel pump fuse supplies power to the pump and the primary and secondary injectors. I'm wondering if a short on the secondaries would cause the current to drop in the primary circuits (and possibly affect the pump, too).

 

Do you have original injectors? I have John Welch injectors in my car with the better flow pattern. I recall the ohms are about the same.

Another thought: According to the manual, there are some "peak and hold jumpers" (external wire loops) on the ECU J4 plug which can affect the injector currents also.  Perhaps you could do some simple resistance/shake checks on these:

On ECU plug J4 check the resistance between the pins D4 and D8 (not the ECU side) and pins D1 and D5. The resistance should be almost zero (less than 1 ohm)

 

FuelPumpFuse.gif

Edited by Qavion

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Yep, sorry meant ohms and not k.  I measured the resistance when the engine was cold (all resistance about 2.2. to 2.3 ohms), then I tried it again at getting the car up to operating temperature 82 C to 89 C ( just idling - no driving),  the resistance values = injectors 1 and 2 were 2.2 ish range while injectors 3 and 4 were 2.5 to 2.6.

 

I did not throw a CEL during the idling process.  I did some minor reving to 3,000 rpms.  I also held the RPM at 1850 (about 10 seconds) since I think I hear some rattling coming from the inside the muffler. Might need to look into that one as well.

 

I have ordered new replacement primary injectors from John Welch.  We suspect that due to the low miles driven on the car that the  injectors are having an issue at warmer temperatures.   I noticed and told John that they were 6 instances where the BLM dropped below 90 (went to 87 and running rich according to Freescan), these 6 instances occurred within 10 minutes and had a duration average of about 30 seconds.  If the BLM is below 90 for more than 20 seconds, then a Code 65 generates according to Freescan.

 

Not sure if I can do the fuel pump relay test.  The DVM is my neighbors and appears to be better than the average ones.  Some are really cheap, but this one looks more on the nicer side of things.

 

Okay, I was wrong again, it was the NOT secondary injectors it WAS the wastegate solenoid that was working.  The secondary injectors are Zero values across the board.

 

I'll review the ECM wirings that you mentioned.  Need to go for now...

 

Thanks,
Bill

Edited by bogle

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post-18482-0-19129600-1441541070.jpgpost-18482-0-54093700-1441541083.jpgpost-18482-0-12119800-1441541094.jpgpost-18482-0-56955400-1441541108.jpg

also doubt blm will cause the error - the blm numbers may just be because of the issues

Work through the charts chap

Good luck

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Hi Barry,

 

Thanks for the chart.  I ran through what I could without the special Lotus part numbers required for Page 2 of testing.

 

The secondary injectors are at 16.3 and 16.4 ohms...btw.

 

I tested the resistance across D1 and D5 as well as D4 to D8 had a .2 value (at least that's less than one ohm).  I also check checks those pins on the harness and ECM pins.  The J4 (Brown) plug fits so tight that I can't imagine it's a loose connection or have connectivity issues.

 

I ran my car (cold start) for 2 minutes to see if I could get a CEL and it didn't.  That's where I could only do partial troubleshooting since I was missing those diagnostic fuel injector test Lotus tools.  Sorry, that's a part that I would need to order.

 

Currently, the CEL comes on a few minutes after driving after getting up to temperature.  Once it's at temperature the CEL comes on more quicker.

 

Probably need to wait until Tuesday before order a part like that.  Can I get that through JAE possibly or is there some other way you recommend?

 

Thanks,
Bill

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The secondary injectors are at 16.3 and 16.4 ohms...btw.

 

 

I recall my WC secondary injectors are the same. Given that my car is playing up, I'm not sure if that's good or bad )))

 

I have ordered new replacement primary injectors from John Welch.  We suspect that due to the low miles driven on the car that the  injectors are having an issue at warmer temperatures.

 

 

 

 

That doesn't bode well for my car, either :P

 

I think I hear some rattling coming from the inside the muffler. Might need to look into that one as well.

 

 

Hopefully not pieces of CAT. If you do have to replace the CAT, it would be a good time to get rid of the EBPV. This can either be done with a replacement section, or having a CAT made up with the extra length (I have a stainless high flow CAT like this). The original exhaust parts can be surprisingly heavy compared to the stainless high flow stuff. Future tip: If you're removing the old stuff, be sure to have supports under the muffler.... It is too heavy for one man to handle (ask me how I know).

 

I ran through what I could without the special Lotus part numbers required for Page 2 of testing.

 

 

 

I'm trying to figure out what that Lotus diagnostic tool does. Is it just checking for periodic firing of the injectors or checking the duration of the firing? I was suprised to read that the injector current can be as much as 4amps. That fuel pump/primary&secondary circuit is really taking a pounding. Perhaps this is probably why (low current) multimeter resistance checks don't always show up the problems.

 

If the BLM is below 90 for more than 20 seconds, then a Code 65 generates according to Freescan.

 

 

I guess if the injectors are being held open for too long (or mechanically stuck open), then you would get rich running. Code 65 seems to relate only to the electrical side of the injectors, however, so I don't think you would get that code if there was something mechanically wrong with the injectors. Experts?

 

"The J4 (Brown) plug fits so tight that I can't imagine it's a loose connection or have connectivity issues."

 

My plugs are damned tight, too, but it's the way the wires are connected to the pins which is important. Just pull gently on either ends of the jumpers to make sure they don't pull free or if you can see where the wire goes into the pin ,make sure there is more than one strand of wire there :P

 

Meanwhile.. I'm still building up the courage to install my second new ECU.... I still haven't figured out how I blew up the old one.

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