free hit
counters
The Greeks have defaulted - Page 2 - General Chat - The Lotus Forums - Lotus Community Partner #ForTheOwners Jump to content


IGNORED

The Greeks have defaulted


Barrykearley

Recommended Posts

It is blackmail of  the ordinary Greek people who are paying the price of a debt the terms of which did not involve them in the first place. This Government is the first one that has given them a say in such a life-changing issue.

Edited by basalte
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

..... think, therefore I am?

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

For forum issues, please contact one of us Moderators.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cogito, ergo shafted??(!)

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

It is blackmail of  the ordinary Greek people who are paying the price of a debt the terms of which did not involve them in the first place. This Government is the first one that has given them a say in such a life-changing issue.

 

Really Dan. So their acceptance of silly rules like 0 or 50% of Vat only on the Islands, lavish state pensions for some workers, very early retirement for other public sector workers, bidding for and winning the Olympics, building loads of infrastructure on the tick etc etc was not something that they asked for, that they voted for, or that they enjoyed in the first place.

 

Unless I'm a complete pleb (and there is a good chance of that) I think you need to think again.  This is what happens when you have a socialist government for too long that just gives and gives - eventually the cupboard is fully bare and you need to spend to fill it up again.

 

It is not blackmail to ask (whether an individual or a country) for a debt to be settled under the terms agreed, or are you saying that because it was agreed by the politicians only, and not individually by the 11.03m people of Greece, that the loan that they benefitted from is no longer and should not be repaid?  What am I missing here?

 

If only Lotus was run by Greeks. I'd be able to sign up for a 50:50 deal on the Evora 400 and the 3-11, put half down and in two years put up two fingers and say you can swing for the rest as you write off the debt.  Yeah right....

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

Which half?

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what happens when you have a socialist government for too long that just gives and gives - eventually the cupboard is fully bare and you need to spend to fill it up again.

 

It doesn't matter what flavour or colour of politicians they are or what level they operate at. They are all evil, corrupt unaccountable liars.

 

They will pander to whatever keeps them in power with their (usually unfulfilled) promises as they are sociopaths.

 

https://youtu.be/P772Eb63qIY

 

https://youtu.be/Xbp6umQT58A

I tempted fate...now my Esprit V8 IS in bits...(sob)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are massive trading benefits from currency union, but there is also a downside from applying harmonised monetary policy across such a large continent with difffering needs.

 

EU interest rates are set to suit the requirements of the developed manufacturing economies of Europe. The weaker peripheral countries had previously had much higher interest rates. Suddenly they had easy access to capital at a far lower interest cost than they were used to, and they ramped up their debt levels employing more people to do stuff without any real end product. With an already uncompetitive economy, and an expensively bloated public sector, they've found they couldn't pay everyones pensions and repay their borrowings. They also don't raise much in taxes due to a culture of avoiding tax (Greece has always had a huge off book economy) and an already crappy service biased uncompetitive economy.

 

So they have gone to daddy to ask to borrow more money:

 

Daddy: "Seriously??!!?? you still haven't paid me back from the last time you borrowed money... where is all your money going? Your spending money like there is no tommorow and expecting me to bail you out? I'm not lending you any more money until you learn to balance your books either through cutting your spending obligations (austerity) or cutting your spending until you get a better paid job (increasing taxes), and you can start by selling your car"

 

Greece: "but daddy... please! I can't sell my Lotus, as its going up in value. I need to keep my current outgoings at their current level. Cutting my outgoings now will mean more pain for me in the long run! (Keynesian Stiumulus) Everything will be fine if I can make it to the Autumn, its just a really difficult time for me.... I need some help to make this months payments"

 

Daddy: "your spending too much - how come your on holiday at 60, whern the other kids across the road are working till 65 or 67 and paying taxes?"

 

Greece: "But Daddy! I just need some more cash to tide me over this week - I'll pay you back!"

 

Daddy: "you still haven't paid me back from the last time you borrowed money - why should I believe you will pay me back if I lend you more? I'm only giving you more if you agree to this budget plan - no more holidays at 60, cut your outgoings and come up with a repayment plan for the money you have already borrowed and not paid back"

 

Greece: "But Daddy! thats soo unfair.... I don't want to."

 

Daddy: "tough shit....learn to balance your budget - your spending is out of control, I'm not lending you more money until you can evidence some form of prudent budgeting".

 

Greece: "Daddy - if you don't lend me more money - I'll go into default, and you'll have baliffs at the door, and our address , where you live, will be on the credit blacklist. That will affect you.... I think you should lend me some more money..."

 

Daddy: "WTF!!! you little cow! you'd do that to me when I spend all day working hard to provide money for your sorry lazy siesta ass, with you contributing fck all other than some games every 4 years and some sunshine?. This is those marxist friends your hanging round with in your politics class isn't it!?!"

 

Greece: "My freind Alexis says because my great great grandad contributed some stuff before I shouldn't have to work so hard, and when I told Yannis you had just got back from holiday, he said that he thinks you should give me some money for us all to go on holiday. If you don't treat me well, I should become really nasty to you. He thinks I should stick it to the man - he rides a motorbike - he's so cool!..... They think you are being really cruel and unfair, and I asked everyone else in my politics class on Saturday and they agreed with me, then we had a party!"

 

Daddy: "Did everyone agree with this view? Nobody though you were behaving like a stupid spoiled little cow?"

 

Greece: "Most people did - at least 61.31% of them anyway - the only people who didn't think so were the economics students, and there are more politics students at my university who deal in soundbytes and like to hear the sound of their own voices without really grasping the implications of what they are demanding. Most of the economics students chose to study in Germany or Belgium to get away from Alexis and Yannis who are on the NUS board.. Alexis and Yannis said we are a socialist collective and the people have spoken, and that I should tell your evil, expoliting, hardworking capitalist scumbag ass just how it is and how awkward I can make things for you.... "

 

Daddy: "We'll fckin see about that.....! run out of money - you can go and live with your friends Yannis and Alexis in the commune and then bleat about how unfair life is, and how if you hadn't been invaded before your lifetime, you'd be rich. I can tell you something - when I started in 1945, I had nothing - NOTHING! I was poor beyond belief - and hard work got me to a stage where I had money in the bank - you had all sorts of advantages, and you have pissed all the money available to you against the wall on socialism and ineffective spending that did fck all to your GDP - you know why? because your not comepetitive! You want everthing, but you want someone else to pay for it. Your lazy!"

 

Greece: "Thats SO unfair! I hate you daddy"

 

Daddy: "and that fckin Yannis can get on his motorbike and ride off into the sunset - he's not allowed in my house again! do you hear me?"

 

Greece: "everyone in my class agrees with me - your such an ar$ehole, your a fascist! all I'm asking for is a little bit more money, or for you to forget about the momey you already leant me, to allow me to spend some more money to make things better...!

 

Daddy " tough shit. Grow up!"

 

Greece: "I'm leaving - I'm better off on my own without access to your cheap capital and because I don't produce anything - I don't need your single currency benefits - I hate you.....! Power to the people!"  door slams.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

:lol:

 

That's a half-familiar story too! 

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

Duncan, very good. Explains the current situation perfectly but you missed out the piece where the spoilt cow accused the daddy of trying to blackmail her.

 

Love it, love it, love it and are you sure you don't know my daughter?

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You missed the start where Daddy decided to have a child not for love but economic expediency. Germany in particular has been very keen on bringing weaker economies into the Euro to depress it's value and therefore help it's export economy while at the same time selling them big infrastructure construction contracts and the loans to fund them.

 

Daddy is a bit dirty in all this as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a bugger for getting the sums accurate. The glaring error in that magnificent summation of the Greek upcock is the statement that 61.31% voted NO.

It omits the fact that only 62.5% of the population bothered to vote at all...the well known "Apathy Party" effect.

 

This means that no more than 38.3% of Greeks eligable to vote actually voted NO....

  • Like 1

Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really? Not sure I agree with the bit about Germany wanting a cheaper currency through addition of weaker economies and dilution tbh....

 

the EEC grew out of the BeNeLux trading bloc.

 

Germany were never founding fathers of the Eurozone unless you believe the weird writings of some looney author who reckoned European Economic integration was written into Nazi policy as plan B, when plan A failed.

 

There are benefits to be obtained as sellers and buyers within a free market. The benefits of same currency transactions and abolishing tarrifs can be beneficial to both buyer and seller. Buyer vs seller interests are not mutually exclusive.

 

Germany managed to build its economic wealth quite nicely under the strong DeutscheMark, and when it had opportunities to dampen the value of its currency on a trade weighted basis relative to the other currencies (like when Sterling exited the ERM) it didn't do so. They were quite happy seeing it float and appreciate.

 

In fact I would say post 1920's Germany have had the absolute fear of inflation and a depreciating currency.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

I wonder over the period since the Greek joined the euro - what the statistics are for new german car sales in Greece showed.

I'm betting it showed a huge massive spike in the upwards direction.

For all the rights and wrongs of this mess, the young folk in Greece cannot be left on the scrap heap waiting for the politicians....... They need to get on with life now and not in 10 years time when its too late.

I love maggie she's did lots of superb things. But writing off generations was wrong. Our benefit state is as it is because of that grounding.

What does Greece make other that olives???? Whatever it is, I've never been so would not profess to know, hey need to start producing and selling.........even if it's in dollars or gbp

Only here once

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greece's problems have been caused by overborrowing on the monetary side (cheap access to capital/investment) and overspending on the fiscal side (hugely bloated public sector relative to tax revenues.)

 

The current predicament of Greece is a warning to ultra-keynesians and anyone else who thinks fiscal prudence is a waste of time. The mis-management of the Greek public purse is rooted in socialism, give- aways, spending for the sake of it and cheap infrastructure investment on the EU gravy train without any thought of if it will be effective in increasing GDP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are profound conceptual errors in most of the above contributions which support the Billionaires` view of "Lazy Lefties Fleecing Europe" and "Run a Country like you would your own Household" variety. 

 

For a start I don`t know many houses with their own  banknote printer  and who could ask others down the street to pay them.   Greece joined the EU in 1979 with the Socialists leftwards opposing entry.   You could argue that subsidies did indeed attract

the Greek elite generally whatever their ostensible labels although it should also be noted that from 2004 to 2009 Greece had a Centre-right Government who were definitely not "Socialist" (whatever that means-spending State money is not in itself a definition of Socialism in my book ) . But the main misconception is to assume that whatever subsidies given, benefited Greeks as a whole.

 

Let me quote the German Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel : "The Greek elite has plundered the country for years". 

 

If a  top German is prepared to say that today , why cannot others who are in no way supporters of the Greek Government,  accept it ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It wasn't EU subsidies thats caused the problem Dan, it was the Greek governments new ability to access capital and borrow at a much low cost than they previously could. They gorged themselves on government debt and pushed their already uncompetitive economy to the brink.

 

The Greek government had a responsibility to attempt to balance their spending to match their tax revenues. Their public sector expenditure costs are an absolute piss take when compared to their tax revenues. They need to make cuts to spending - but they don't want to.

 

My definition of socialism is government intervention through higher tax, higher expenditure and a re-distribution of wealth. The Greek government borrowed too much and spent it on bus drivers, trains, nurses and dustmen who are allowed to retire at 60, which did nothing for their GDP and their ability to finance themselves through future tax revenues.

 

Uncomfortably for Keynesian fundamentalists and those who believe in government intervention for a fairer redistribution of wealth, Greece has been a huge government spending (debt vs expenditure) balls up. They borrowed too much and they spent too much.

 

It is undoubtedly easier for the Keynesian fundamentalists and for people with a certain political ideology to blame it on social injustice and the Greek elite however.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is blackmail of  the ordinary Greek people who are paying the price of a debt the terms of which did not involve them in the first place. This Government is the first one that has given them a say in such a life-changing issue.

So the Greek people didn't vote for all those governments?

hindsight: the science that is never wrong

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

That's the very issue with democracy.....

Consider this....... A party goes up for election promising a pot of gold for everyone and an easy life...... How many votes will they get.....loads to be fair.

When it all goes completely tits up - everyone looks around and blames everyone else...........

What's needed is a new bbc program.........celebrity dictator swap..... The North Koreans would gladly send theirs to fix it

Only here once

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greece's other problem is the Greek people don't like paying taxes. They'll go all sorts of measures not to pay it, so they'll never pay off their debt.  So IMO they need to print Drachma, break away from Europe, have a few years of serious pain, and then after the hyperinflation they'll be back on their feet and Countries like Spain and Italy will get jealous and follow suit.  I've always thought the Euro was a disaster, it's just a glorified fixed exchange rate mechanism.  We know how that ended for us in 1992 and that's why we're not in it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is blackmail of  the ordinary Greek people who are paying the price of a debt the terms of which did not involve them in the first place. This Government is the first one that has given them a say in such a life-changing issue.

 

Thanks Dan. Now my witty repartee after this doesn't make sense to anyone. Had to fix yours up didn't you?  :)

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

For forum issues, please contact one of us Moderators.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Until europe becomes a true federation like the USA, Canada and Australia this type of situation will continue. In those federations the richer states carry the poorer ones with the main gaol always being the best and most equitable living standards for all its citizens.

 

But to achieve such a federation requires an over-riding central government and how likely is that to happen in Europe? Especially when its euro community members still hold their old values of parochialism and nationalistic pride.

DanR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is because populist governments win elections. Sensible ones fall by the wayside.

And everyone wants to be more equal than someone else, in this case their neighbours..

Very hard to get all these countries rowing in the same direction because they have different focus points.

Living standards are enormously different from one country to another. Cant blame people for wanting more, just some dont want the lifetime of working for it first though. Witness the migrants moving to britain for the welfare lifestyle, that is better than working life in their home country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm still trying to work out why it affected the Australian stock market so much.

 

I must be a numpty.

 

No. There is no need for anyone to try and explain it to me. I have to go and cut my toenails.

 

Thankyou, however, for all the offers. :)

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

For forum issues, please contact one of us Moderators.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...