Elite v Excel

[oilmagnet477]

So, first off, an apology to each individual group of owners - I'm not out to cause an argument or upset anyone and I appreciate that it is somewhat subjective but:

Ignoring the aesthetic differences in design, beauty being in the eye of the beholder etc, and working on the assumption that the Excel was in reality the Éclat Mk3,

is the Excel a better car to drive than the Elite/Éclat?

I'm not talking about day to day ease of living with it, I'm simply talking about the engineering and how that translates to the driving ('seat of your pants') experience?

I have no driving experience of either and have to confess to preferring the looks/style of the Elite and appreciate that it is recognised that an Elite body on Excel running gear is considered by some as the ultimate 'version' but is anything lost in translation?

Thanks

 

Ant

Edited October 10, 2015 by oilmagnet477

[eeyoreish]

Excel = Lotus style over Toyota engineering. Enough said.

i had one of the last Excels a few years ago and I loved it. Wish I still had it now as a stable mate for my Esprit...

[pbharcourt]

Hmmm...Elite/Eclat is a Colin Chapman classic warts and all, Excel is a well developed corporate version.

Excel is a much better car but Elite/Eclat has more.....um..character?

Ford focus or mk1 Escort depends what floats your boat!

[clivef38]

Time moves on. I suppose you could say an Evora is a Esprit 2+2 

 

Clive

[eeyoreish]

Time moves on. I suppose you could say an Evora is a Esprit 2+2 

 

Clive

Not in my eyes...

The Esprit is automotive art. The Evora (whilst a nice bit of kit) is just another roundy, curvy sportster of which there are several similar style cars from other manufacturers. I doubt that in 40 years they'll still be turning heads like an S1 Esprit does today.

[andydclements]

in terms of the Eclat/ Elite V s Excel, as a good indication there's the fact that some rake upgrades so far that they actually have bits of the Excel body grafted to their Elite/ Eclat in order to use Exce running gear. That probably sums up how good the Excel subframe and suspension is. 

[oilmagnet477]

Andy,

As I said at the top, I don't doubt the inevitable developments/improvements over time from the Elite/Éclat to the Excel, but do people make the upgrades to make the cars more reliable and easy to live with or do they improve the driver experience? I know it's a tough ask, unless someone has both and can compare one directly with the other it may be an unanswerable conundrum.

Cheers all

[rjwooll]

Well, I'm one of the lunatics who has an Excel chassis under an Elite body. To make it worse, it's an automatic (but a great one with the Excel SA box.)

Better or worse? The Elite had a reputation for munching driveshaft UJs and having impossible to adjust rear brakes, but had soft long travel suspension which gave it a unique feel. I'd agree that the Excel, mechanically, is the Elite S3. The rear suspension acquired a top link (which was not a Toyota development, contrary to some people's opinion, it was based on the same modification made to the Esprit's rear suspension.) The main Toyota components on the Excel include (from memory) brakes, gearbox (manual), final drive and much of the electrics and switchgear. So it was still very much a Lotus design, but used a different 'donor' car!

The Excel is therefore more like a later Esprit in its suspension setup; this means stiffer springs (2-3 x the spring rate of the Elite) but with damping that was very soft on compression but stiff on rebound. Road testers commented that it felt stiffer and more modern than the Elite but still with good ride comfort and excellent handling.

Such was the specification of Lotus dampers that it is virtually impossible to get accurate replacements today. I had coilovers fitted but am keen to get back to the original Excel suspension if I can get hold of some correct dampers. Coilover dampers are designed for competition use and don't seem to have the secondary damping characteristics that deal with minor road irregularities. Additionally the single adjustment ones that I use have a rebound:compression damping ratio of around 3:1. Most road cars have a ratio of around 4:1 and the Lotus dampers are around 6:1 I believe.

I am nitpicking a bit but the ride and handling characteristics of the Elite and Excel are very important to the DNA of the car. They are different, and it comes down to personal taste. I feel the Elite is the more 'pure' design, in that stiff springs/dampers are normally used to mask compromises in suspension geometry. The Elite had few compromises, hence could offer excellent handling with a comfortable ride. The compromise was, of course, the UJs.

This would be a very interesting conversation to have with MJK!

ATB Richard

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2015 by rjwooll

[Fueltheburn]

When I refurb the riviera... I look forward to that road test and comparison but having owned a number of excels I can tell you that one wearing the original suspension is so comfortable on long journeys and is enjoyable as hell on the back roads but is not as communicative as when it is changed over to coilovers.  The loss of ride comfort moving to stage 2 AVO coilovers is swapped for a confidence inspiring drive that tells you exactly how far you can push it.  With more power you can point and squirt an excel into corners with some serious vigour.  

The excel chassis is begging for more power to be thrown at it.  Bearing in mind Mikes rally cars use an excel chassis under a sunbeam and the old lotus micra.....Just saying.

It depends what you from your car?  Cruising or bruising.

[oilmagnet477]

Richard and Kieran

Great stuff - just the sort of info I' looking for. I agree a conversation with MJK would be enlightening.

 

Cheers

Ant

[Don.Hasi]

Hi Ant,

in my view it is difficult to say better or worse. They are different. What seems to be better is behold in the eye of the driver.

I am comparing the Eclat S2 and the Excel MY89 (the Eclat S5 if you like) every week on the same route. They are both very fast and feature unique experiences. The Excel is the more modern layout with a very stable feel of driving. It is the more adult car. The Eclat is the more pure adventure. It delivers all the smiles featured in the M50 project video. It isnt any grade more nervous on the road or sth like this, but you have to recalibrate your back end for the very last car in Lotus history with the chamionship winning layout of the damper and spring setting.

To judge about it, you have to drive both. In fact an Excel chassi under the Eclat/Elite will have a great impact on the driving experience. If you like it you will get the easier maintaining opportunity as an add on. If you like more the ealier behaviour you will ruin the car.

Comparing it with a S1 you will might come across the situation where the weak gearboxes ruin the fun with the car. This has to be considered carefully depending on your average mileage the year.

Don

[theelanman]

Ant

are you thinking you might head for an Excel?......

[Dunc]

Hmmm.

I guess I am to be the sole dissenting voice... lots of people saying excels are better drivers cars, but I wonder if they have driven a sorted elite/eclat for comparison?

I own both (a late eclat and early eclat excel).

I've recently upset the handling of my eclat S2 after I changed some (perfectly good) mild steel rear trailing arms for replacement glavanised ones and a set of spax adjustables, which seems to have upset the way it drives (it seems the toe in is visually wrong, despite matching the washers to the way they came off....), which gives me a pitch to the right when I back off the throttle after hard acceleration... not particularly nice, but we digress...

Comparing how my eclat S2 used to drive, to how my eclat excel drives (I'll admit the excel has tired dampers) - the eclat is a nicer handling car.

It is more stable and rides much better. It feels more planted when I am wringing its neck. I have driven my eclat much harder than I have the excel (I did an Andrew Walsh driver improvement day with the eclat where they teach you to drive round a corner to the limit of adhesion). Ive only ever driven the excel on the road, but it feels slightly skittish in comparison especially over bumpy surfaces (perhaps related to lack of effective damping). The eclat rear end seems to "float" more where my excel will bump and crash. The eclat always felt planted under throttle on exit, despite a willingness to spin its wheels.

Someone else recently commented that the elite/eclat seems to have more suspension travel controlled by firm damping, whereas the excel seems to be more firmly sprung with shorter throw.

I personally prefer the eclat as a drivers road car, but each to their own. Its all personal preference.

Ive had issues with recurring sticky caliper slides on the excel, but I'd also give the eclat the nod on braking (certainly for road use). The excel may have vented discs all round, but the calipers on the front are puny compared to the enormous (and heavy) 3 pot girlings of the elite/eclat, and a big drum brake will give better braking the first time your use it (its just when its hot that a drum gets worse than a disc). The brake bias valve seems to ensure the rears dont do any awful lot on the excel anyway...?!? Maybe the excel will win on track use braking, but on the road - its the eclat.

My two are perhaps not great examples to compare as whilst the excel is MOT'd and roadworthy, its not exactly "sorted", whereas the eclat was in rude health before I recently meddled with its rear suspension.

I do wonder how much my findings are bourne out of fact and fiction. I make no secret of the fact I prefer the elite and eclat to the excel - maybe because I have had a few eclats ober the years and I am maybe willing to be more charitable to their shortcomings than I am to my excel - which I don't mind, but have no real love for.

Its a nod to the Elite/Eclat for me.....

(Excel is nicer to spanner on, and needs less spannering, but that wasn't the question you asked....)

[oilmagnet477]

Cheers Dunc - If I'm honest I tend to agree. I much prefer the period feel of the Elite/Éclat over the Excel but that might just be coz I'm fast becoming an old git

It was simply a genuine question asked in the spirit of research - Gareth, I'm still on the Elite path but was wondering if I might 'dip' into Excelship if a cheap one turns up (and end up with 2! shhhh don't tell the Mrs lol).

In all honesty, as you say Dunc, unless you had 2 minters sat side by side, it is almost an impossible ask - it is just the way my mind works - did all that additional work between the 2 actually improve the road manners of the car? As has been said, I don't doubt the Excel's stand alone capabilities as a more 'sorted' car but that doesn't mean it is better at going round corners.

One day soon I'll be able to add my own experience to the argument I guess.

[Dunc]

theres is a very worthy eclat excel for sale on lotusforsale.com

needs a set of shocks mind... ;-)

 

 

[Don.Hasi]

 

unless you had 2 minters sat side by side, it is almost an impossible ask -

...

but that doesn't mean it is better at going round corners.

no. look a bit higher... It is a matter of design. It is just different and how much you get used to it.

[andydclements]

Ant, you'll have to borrow a couple of cars and compare. 

[oilmagnet477]

Andy,

I'm open to offers

 

[Fueltheburn]

If you get a chance to drive a sorted excel try it with standard tyre pressures and then try the same car down the same road with 2-3 more psi in the tyres all round.  The change is interesting  

My one caveat Ant would be with an Excel - they can still operate with a surprising amount of issues.  If you buy one, buy one from someone who loved it like a spoiled child bestowed with everything it wanted and not treated like an abused rescue dog. 

Looks wise though - I personally prefer the look of the éclat Riviera.

 

 

 

[oilmagnet477]

Cheers Kieran,

Some many choices, not enough time (or money

Oh to be J Leno........If I was, I'd fit in anything!

[andydclements]

Andy,

I'm open to offers

 

Nte to self: Get the Excel insured for road use.