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Left and right are relative. The USA can consider them L&R because if you only have two to compare you don't immediately go with a more complex differentiation. In the UK we then map them as centre &  right because they sort of align to there on our spectrum of mainstream parties. Go back in the UK's history and we pretty much had the Conservatives and the Liberal Party, the same sort of spectrum as the USA. It's only with Labour becoming a mainstream party after WW1 that we had a more diverse spectrum.

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1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

I'm being educated as I didn't think the USA had a "left" in politics.

Only centre right. Right. And then Texan somewhere over the right horizon.

Just goes to show how educational TLF is!  :)

Our left is to your right although there are a few blokes here who would feel right at home in our southern heartland....where I live!  :)  But mostly we are a conservative lot, and that includes Biden and Harris.  We do have a demonstrably "recognizable" left in people like AOC and Omar, but they are not the powers in the Democratic party right now.  Biden and Harris though are no radicals.  They are anything but.  But it's easy to tar them with that brush because all that takes is words. I do not accuse you of that and  don't recall you saying that either.   To be frank, the Dems picked the most centrist candidate that they thought could win and they did it to appeal to the middle.  And they got a result.   And you'll eventually be glad of that, I promise.  

 

More importantly, my Evora is faster than yours!  

'17 Evora 400 MT 

 

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https://fb.watch/2Yk6LOoEU6/

insurrection? Who? 

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^I had a dense aunt.  She's not with us anymore and even though I, my sister and all my cousins weren't fond of her, the funeral was very sad.  I found out that we all really wanted to like her but each had trouble with her in different ways.  Even her kids felt that way.  That was something I didn't know until we all talked about it.  I thought I was the only one that had a problem with her.  But as I said, she was thick and never  got the point  and always argued about the littlest things.  Like   just picking at the turnips in the margins of the plate instead of digging into the roast.  But I digress.

 

Mandela is more complicated.  He had to struggle under apartheid., a legal, organized system of oppression. Mandela and de Klerk of course shared the Novel Peace Prize, which gives him some street cred, I'd  think. 

Meanwhile, Mandela was in prison. But, removed from the fight on the ground, Mandela ended up having a massive impact on the fight for anti-apartheid justice in South Africa — and, especially as anti-apartheid sentiments spread around the world, global opinion of him shifted dramatically.“He comes out of jail an old man, much more ready to compromise after almost 30 years in jail,” argues Peniel Joseph, Founding Director Center for the Study of Race and Democracy at the University of Texas at Austin. “When he comes out, he’s saying we’re renouncing violence.”

 

I can forgive a person who renounces violence and works for peaceful resolution but I'm not sure what there is to forgive Mandela for   given the brutality of apartheid. He himself said many times that he was far from perfect and I've no doubt that's true. I hope he was able to forgive himself.  My forgiveness doesn't matter anymore if it ever did. Neither does yours, actually!     I understand Gandhi and King had their own issues.  I forgive them too!

Apartheid really was a nasty business and made for nasty business from the oppressed as well as the oppressor.  That kind of situation always does.  It ruins the victims and the masters alike.  Now, I don't see where he has  been accused of murder or been convicted for it.  Perhaps I missed that and you can provide me with a link to the conviction.   I'd be abashed about that but Mandela is a good example of change I can applaud.  Maybe you would have preferred Desmond Tutu.  He's less controversial, so edit my list. I don't mind and I don't need be right about Mandela to be right elsewhere and for you to be wrong about everything else.

 

But we're just talking and laughing, right?  :) 

 

*This post has been edited and here is the final edit.  I just got my fifth dot!  I gained two dots almost entirely due to this thread!  I am proud to be a more dotted member here!  Thank you admin, or algorithm or whoever.    

**What do we call them, actually?  Dots?  Points? Globules?  I assume they monitor activity?  Or am I now a commissioned officer? Anyway, I have five of them now.  I feel like I belong.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

'17 Evora 400 MT 

 

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8 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Don’t forget Hitler’s gang were the National SOCIALIST Party. You can call it what you like, but they were still extreme right wing.

Indeed it's important to get back to definitions.

National ?  not really, third reich didn't have borders but military fronts. this is a fundamental difference between an Empire and a Nation. A Nation has borders not an Empire. EU for example is an empire not a nation.

Socialist ? I never read in the socialism literature that massive industrial killing was part of the plan

In the same time, today, occidental countries are killing people all around the world for "the human rights" . LOL. What is the most terrible in this fucking mess, is that I can met people who really think that it's true. Maybe the same think that goulags or concentration camps are amusement parks ?

This is the difference between reality and marketing strategy. This difference is also called : the truth. I propose to remove this word from our dictionary. We will gain time.

Regarding left-right it's a funny concept, because you can find him in all occidental countries, whereas the histories are different. empty concept ? illusion of the choice ?

Regarding Trump, I never see in France and even in Europe in all mainstream media a person attacked like that. It seems that this guy is linked to the Devil, I will check Wikipedia... The same media who explain that "yellow vests" are stupid, and non educated. It seems that as soon as, by your act or your vote, you show that your are not agree with the "system" your are stupid and non educated.

"you have the right to be agree !" ok but do I have the right to be not agree ?

maybe people is stupid, but maybe people is frustrated, maybe people does not trust anymore the "elites", maybe people just want to be respected when you follow the rules. Rules that are rarely followed by the ones who give the lessons.

ok so now explain me what will happen next in our countries, not only in US, when you have millions of people lost in their own country. fun ? kissing each other ? track days ? buying sport cars ? I don't believe.

 

 

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With impeachment looking very likely, will Trump get away with it if he just pardons himself? :blink:

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I think once he's impeached he can't hold office again and I assume the govt needs to show that he can't get away with inciting an insurrection which led to people dying. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment#United_States - It looks like removal from office is the result, you're right, not criminal charges but to be fair, I'm sure they are on the way! :lol:

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If there’s enough evidence to charge him with inciting an insurrection, wouldn’t that lead to separate criminal charges? If found guilty, I assume that would prevent him from holding public office in the future.

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Impeachment has no teeth, it's like being indited for a crime and a trial is held. Only if the Senate convicts him are there any repercussions. If he is convicted in the Senate then he will not be able to hold any federal elected government office. I'm not sure about state offices.

The big debate is if he self pardons himself, it sets up the legal challenge if a self-pardon is constitutionally legal. Also, if a person that is pardoned excepts the pardon, they are admitting guilt. This also requires that the person then answer all questions asked surrounding the pardon. If they do not, they are then guilty, again, of obstruction.

Later,
Eldon

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Also, can the POTUS pardon anybody (whether himself or not) before the person has been convicted? Surely that's more of an immunity from prosecution.

It looks as though the trial in the Senate wouldn't be until after he's left office, so they may just drop / not fret over the actual trial and more go for the barring from office which needs only a majority of 1 person. Maybe however, if they managed a full conviction in the Senate, then could it actually unify the nation slightly (relative to the other outcomes) by showing the people that it's not just Democrats that view him as guilty? Whichever way it goes it looks as though a lot of people in the USA will feel it's a travesty of justice.

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So, can an ex-president be subject to criminal charges for an act they committed whilst in office? It seems to me that if he is impeached and the senate ‘convicts’ him, that would probably prejudice any future criminal trial on the basis he wouldn’t be able to get a fair trial.

If there’s enough evidence to criminally convict, they should leave it at that. If there isn’t, then it will just look like political games and just increase the divisions that already exist.

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1 hour ago, EldonZ said:

Impeachment has no teeth, it's like being indited for a crime and a trial is held. Only if the Senate convicts him are there any repercussions. If he is convicted in the Senate then he will not be able to hold any federal elected government office. I'm not sure about state offices.

The big debate is if he self pardons himself, it sets up the legal challenge if a self-pardon is constitutionally legal. Also, if a person that is pardoned excepts the pardon, they are admitting guilt. This also requires that the person then answer all questions asked surrounding the pardon. If they do not, they are then guilty, again, of obstruction.

Later,
Eldon

Eldon's post gets it  correctly.  Neal's question is answered in Eldon's post, but to address it clearly, the law regarding the value of presidential self pardons  is untested or at least unclear as to what protection Trump obtains  if he pardons himself.  So that remains to be seen. As mentioned, anyone receiving a pardon is obliged to answer all questions pertaining to the issues and connected issues without the protection of the fifth amendment.  The penalties for lying in this way are severe.  However, if someone other than the president himself is pardoned for a specific crime, it really doesn't matter what corroborating evidence is uncovered.  A presidential pardon is essentially absolute.   One presumes the same would hold true if his self pardon was judged as legally binding.  He would escape the consequences regardless of any crime regardless of its severity.  He would still be liable for crimes committed before he was president, and he would still be open to actions against him by the states.  But he would be immune from prosecution by Federal authorities.  Barr's justice department (Well, Trump's actually) interpreted the law to be that Trump could not be charged in court while he was still president. This meant that he was immune from the usual liabilities that any citizen would face during his term as president.  That time is soon to pass,  and he becomes liable for all of it.  They say he's considering the broadest range of pardons ever to include family and friends, and himself. This huge blanket of pardons, should it be attempted by Trump will surely be tested in court but as mentioned, where it ends is unclear.  However, the presidential power to pardon is extremely broad, almost unlimited really, so how it will all turn out is an interesting question. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Loquacious Lew said:

 A presidential pardon is essentially absolute.

How did this come about? What's the reasoning behind letting criminals off scot free?

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We do it here in the UK, I'm sure other countries do as well. Sometimes if the law of the time was massively out of step with current views, or if the person does something that might have got a royal recognition but wouldn't because of the person's conviction (now wondering about the guy who tackled the London Bridge terrorists, why he's not been pardoned).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_prerogative_of_mercy

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Funny how the old tax evasion thing seems to have gone quiet. How a self-proclaimed patriot and his extended family can enjoy living a life of utter luxury in a country and barely contribute a bean to its running and defence is beyond me.

What do the US military and security forces have to say about his personal lack of financial support?

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@LotusLeftLotusRightThe tax evasion has not gone away. That is a problem in the state of NY which presidential will not cover since it is a state and not a federal investigation.

The DOJ and others are waiting until Trump is out of office because you cannot bring a sitting president up on criminal charges. Once he is out of office, he is fair game which is why he wants to pardon himself which would be for things that he has done, not things he hasn't done, yet.

The next couple of years are still going to be interesting. McConnell wants him found guilty in the Senate because he believes it will be easier to remove him from the GOP. It has been said that Trump may be found liable for the Capitol riot via civil law suits. There is still going to be the problem of the millions that still believes that he is the Best President ever.

Later,
Eldon

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