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As one of the Americans who converses here, let me get this out of the way.  Whew.   YAY YAY YAY YAY YAY.       There are  many things to say and consider.  We won a big one.  It's scar

But at least he didn't start a war, legal or otherwise like the previous Presidential trend before him. Every cloud and all that. I'm no Trump fan (to be honest reasonably ambivalent as it's your

Congratulations USA 

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@EldonZ you say the number of pardons by Trump is on the low side. Is that compared to all presidents, or just recent ones?

@PhilW You make reference to Obama's figures which do make interesting reading.

 

I ask because the figures I see indicate Trump  has pardoned 237, with  Obama having pardoned 212, so not a lot of difference at that headline figure. If you dig a bit then other things come to mind. Obama's was over two terms, therefore Turmp's rate was more than double Obama's per year on average. Also, Obama had a massive number of requests (total of clemency & pardon requests was driven by a specific programme and was 3x that of his predecessor who pardoned a few less).

These figures are before the end of term pardons by Trump

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/24/so-far-trump-has-granted-clemency-less-frequently-than-any-president-in-modern-history/

 

It seems that in modern times, the use of Presidential Pardon is declining. I wonder why that is? Are convictions now deemed to be safer, with less reliance on witnesses etc and a growing use of scientific evidence such as blood, DNA matches etc? Perhaps it's just less popular politically.

 

What I didn't find was a split of what the original crime was for. 

 

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@andydclementsThe link you posted is the same one that I saw. It shows Trump being stingy with his pardons. If you believe all of what you here in the news, there was also considerable money being moved around to get a Trump pardon. Also, most Presidents issue the majority of their pardons in the last month of their term.

Later,
Eldon

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@EldonZ the thing with that comparison is that it's not full term for Trump, it shows pardons he issued up to 23rd November. He has given pardons to considerably more people after the period that the data includes, so bluntly, no the number of pardons issued by Trump is not on the low side.

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I'm currently laughing at the fact that his banks are now pulling the rug from beneath his empire, and I very much doubt that other big players will be keen to support in their place (even if they secretly support or were simply comfortable to provide the banking) they'll probably choose to avoid the bad publicity and loss of other business that would follow.

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1 hour ago, andydclements said:

@EldonZ the thing with that comparison is that it's not full term for Trump, it shows pardons he issued up to 23rd November. He has given pardons to considerably more people after the period that the data includes, so bluntly, no the number of pardons issued by Trump is not on the low side.

Yes, the number does not reflect his current total but I believe his total still puts him on the low side.

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237 apparently, that's more than GW Bush who served two terms, just under half of Bill Cinton's who served two terms, over half or R Regan's who served two terms.... I think the facts would say his level of pardon s was not on the low side even in modern times where they are less common @EldonZ . Obama's was the outlier but that was the result of a specific programme which seems to be aimed to balance out the old sentencing regime with more modern practices. https://www.justice.gov/archives/pardon/obama-administration-clemency-initiative

The prisoners had to meet most (or all) of the below. That meant that once those had been released, in theory it was no longer needed or at least not needed unless sentencing methods changed dramatically to give lower sentences.

 

  • They are currently serving a federal sentence in prison and, by operation of law, likely would have received a substantially lower sentence if convicted of the same offense(s) today;
  • They are non-violent, low-level offenders without significant ties to large scale criminal organizations, gangs or cartels;
  • They have served at least 10 years of their prison sentence;
  • They do not have a significant criminal history;
  • They have demonstrated good conduct in prison; and
  • They have no history of violence prior to or during their current term of imprisonment.
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@andydclementsBelieve me, I am not defending or in favor of Trump. As I stated, most Presidents issue the majority of their pardons during their last month of term and definitely not until after their last term has started. So, using the length of time as a president as a factor I do not believe is a fair comparison.

Later,
Eldon

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Just picking a one of ex-POTUS at random Regan. Looks heavily weighted to first part of first term. 48 (if I counted correctly) in 1981 alone. Just 29 in 1989.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons-granted-president-ronald-reagan-1981-1989

 

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemency-statistics

 

GW Bush does seem weighted to the end of term, but he doesn't seem overly keen on pardons judging by total figures.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/gwbush-pardons

 

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I bet creepy Joe can’t wait for his covid jabs - he can get back to sniffing kids then.

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10 hours ago, andydclements said:

I'm currently laughing at the fact that his banks are now pulling the rug from beneath his empire, and I very much doubt that other big players will be keen to support in their place (even if they secretly support or were simply comfortable to provide the banking) they'll probably choose to avoid the bad publicity and loss of other business that would follow.

This is just the beginning disappointment  for him. The Proud Boys were expecting a bunker scene wherein he and Melanoma poison the dog and take considerably  more dramatic steps rather than grudgingly consent to the communist victory. But they didn't get that.  He just flew off to Mara Lago....that's the bunker for now..... to lick his wounds. He's going to  have  a rough few months and I think it will get worse before it gets better for him. Even the city of Mara Lago is fighting his presence.  It sucks to be him today. 

 It's only fair. I can see him with a future on  drive time radio and of course  another reality TV show but as was mentioned, the RE business just got a lot tougher for him. And then there will be the courts.  You will want to watch the Senate proceedings but if you don't, I will try to report them with my completely unbiased eye from here.  I hope the trial doesn't drag on for a lot of reasons.  Finally, it should not go unmentioned that  Rupert has blood on his hands too but they make a pair so a media future is in the offing.  Trump's always been Rupert's boy.    He was useful.  

Better though,  things are looking up and that is so nice.  Biden has a very difficult road ahead but today was a tonic.   

 

Speaking of roads, related automotive content: 

 

 

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'17 Evora 400 MT 

 

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Barry's making a joke and one that many people are making. Frankly I can't Stand Trump and I think Biden only got in because it was him or Trump. Any decent republican candidate and Biden was screwed.

I also think he will be the first President to die in Office since JFK, though not for the same reason I hope, but its a stressful job and he is very, very old. This will leave the door open to the Vice President and having a Black Woman as President will be enlightening and a good thing for the people of America. Well done Kamala Harris!

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I don't think Biden will die in office but I do not see him running for a second term. I see Harris becoming the next candidate but she will have to campaign for the nomination.

Later,
Eldon

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For all the criticism of Trump he still had a huge amount of support from voters. I don't hold out much hope for Biden, the truth will tell how he deals with China, N Korea etc, he will unite the USA which is good, but on the world stage? it will also be interesting if USA goes to another War again under him, something that didn't happen under Trump. I don't think Trump was great but there certainly is a lot of skewing of information, I wouldn't say the adults are back in charge, I would say the old guard are. Biden is just the new Jimmy Carter and he was terrible president as he was ineffective.

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41 minutes ago, red vtec said:

but on the world stage?

Hasn't he been in politics for 50 years and a VP? I'd have thought that would give him some clout and know-how.

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Yes but he's also part of the Political Elite that Trump campaigned against originally and won him the Presidency in the first place! I would love him to be a good President but I am sitting on the Fence. Despite the "Trumpism's" he actually did boost their Economy and jobs before COVID hit.

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49 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

Yes but he's also part of the Political Elite that Trump campaigned against originally and won him the Presidency in the first place! I would love him to be a good President but I am sitting on the Fence. Despite the "Trumpism's" he actually did boost their Economy and jobs before COVID hit.

This is exactly what I think.

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Yes, but he boosted jobs by doing things will (according to generally accepted theories- not hypotheses) amongst other things, cause climate change to accelerate and so make this planet less hospitable to most species.

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8 hours ago, pete said:

Unnecessary

Not really chap - just remember many defended Jimmy Saville

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