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Euro question - 23rd June

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9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Interesting that if you look at the polls and the opinions coming from "the man on the street" interviews that people on all sides of the fence are getting increasingly frustrated with many, even Remainers, just wishing the government got with it and we left.  I'm not sure that if we had another referendum the result would be any difference, indeed, I suspect that the majority to leave might actually increase by a % or 2.  I do think that Parliament is totally at odds with the mood in the country and I can see a crisis of constitution developing here and a complete lack of trust developing between the people and parliament.

This is a cockup of monumental proportions and personal views aside, this is a terrible state to be in.  We had a people's vote. The biggest turnout of the people in decades. And Leave was the decision. Why has this will of the people been so hard to deliver?  And why have the people who lost the vote tried so hard to over turn, through every back door and corner, the will of the majority?  It's criminal what has been done here in my point of view.

Because it was an illegal, non binding referendum?

Because nobody voted to be significantly worse off?

Because a deal was touted as what would happen in Brexit?

I dunno, there are probably others. It is a monumental mess though, I agree with that. I don't know any remainers that have moved to leavers though, and the vast majority of the people (London, see) I know are of that ilk. 

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How can you say it was an illegal referendum? Please explain.

How do you know people will be worse off when we do not yet know what WILL be happening on WHAT terms. Which people? Do you know that all Brexiteers where expecting a golden handout?  What supports your view here?

We didn't have a referendum on a deal. The question was should we leave or remain. Nothing more or nothing less. We were never voting on the terms of a deal. Again, please explain.

London has always been remain so if you fish in the same pond you'll always get the same fish. Seems logical to me 

But the UK is not just London.

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The leave campaign broke the law (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-broke-electoral-law-and-british-democracy-is-shaken - this is widely reported & not contentious, i chose a guardian link as it was the first, but you can get the same information from multiple sources) it was therefore an illegal referendum. 

The vast majority of the predictions suggest we will be worse off under a no deal Brexit.

I've posted the links before in this thread, there is plenty of evidence that the leave campaign were campaigning on the assumption that there would be an agreement (a deal) between the UK and the EU in the event of a leave majority. 

You are right, we were never voting on the terms of the deal, which is exactly why we need to go back to a vote. The first referendum a (non binding) intent the second will be an implementation vote. And because all the options other than remain are shit, hopefully we'll come to our senses. 

In any event, given that we have followed the non-binding referendum's intent, we now need to follow the non-binding parliament's decision to take no-deal off the table for ever. Which i think leads only to May's deal (which is still shit) or another referendum, or both (with May's deal on the ballot). 

Brexiteer MPs looked more than upset tonight, serves them right, they were told that they were risking Brexit by not voting for May's deal. 

If i was May, i'd try for a third time before the 29th,  i think that taking no deal off indefinitely as they have tonight, would mobilise brexiteers to vote for her deal. Whether that is enough or not, i'm not sure given that DUP aren't for turning, their issues are more fundamental with the backstop. 

Edited by JG220

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Can just imagine the EU delighting in punishing us Insome way if we go back now and what a laughing stock we would be


hindsight: the science that is never wrong

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We are already a laughingstock 

12 minutes ago, PhillC said:

 

"The leave campaign broke the law"

Does that actually mean that "The Referendum" was illegal?

I dunno, doesn't it?

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14 minutes ago, PhillC said:

 

"The leave campaign broke the law"

Does that actually mean that "The Referendum" was illegal?

That was my point. The two things are mutuallly exclusive. I am sorry but that does not make the vote illegal.

2 minutes ago, JG220 said:

We are already a laughingstock 

I dunno, doesn't it?

No it doesn't. The vote was legal. The bluster is not the vote. Can't you see the difference?

I also think you are confusing other things. The vote was non binding. However the last general election was fought out with a Tory manifesto to execute the will of the people. They won the general election so that gave them the mandate.  This really is not as complex as you are making out. The referendum leaflet that outlined the vote was clear that we were voting to leave or remain. We were never promised a vote on any deal. And people wonder why we get frustrated....

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20 minutes ago, JG220 said:

We are already a laughingstock 

I dunno, doesn't it?

Sorry but getting annoyed now.  The people of the UK are NOT a F**King laughing stock.  The politicians are!!!!!!!!!

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As everyone is saying the vote was leave or remain.  Not be a vasel state of the EU!

 

Also it was the largest turn out in modern history

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@100th_Idiot well you're the first @JG220 has ever met then!  A remainer to leaver...  Do you live in London too?

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Bought a big box of matches from the shop


Only here once

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I told my local district councillor that i will be withholding my council tax now,

His reply
 
Chris,
I suspect I will feel even more let down than you by Parliament as a whole if they fail to deliver the instructions of the British people.
My Partner, Son  and I worked without break in 2016 to secure a "Leave" result. We are members of the public too you know.
 
Not paying Council Tax which looks after vulnerable people, (Young and Old), takes away your rubbish, mends potholes and in most cases runs Bus Services and even re-builds your private drains etc etc would I believe be a bit silly.
Your mate
Bill

 

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3 minutes ago, LotusFella said:

I told my local district councillor that i will be withholding my council tax now,

His reply
 
Chris,
I suspect I will feel even more let down than you by Parliament as a whole if they fail to deliver the instructions of the British people.
My Partner, Son  and I worked without break in 2017 to secure a "Leave" result. We are members of the public too you know.
 
Not paying Council Tax which looks after vulnerable people, (Young and Old), takes away your rubbish, mends potholes and in most cases runs Bus Services and even re-builds your private drains etc etc would I believe be a bit silly.
Your mate
Bill

 

😁

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43 minutes ago, LotusFella said:

Sorry but getting annoyed now.  The people of the UK are NOT a F**King laughing stock.  The politicians are!!!!!!!!!

Well, if you read European papers you will see that we are. 

We were a laughingstock for offering the referendum, a laughingstock for voting leave and now one for not knowing what we want. I’d agree that you can blame the politicians for the majority of those three. 

42 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

@100th_Idiot well you're the first @JG220 has ever met then!  A remainer to leaver...  Do you live in London too?

The first! 

 

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1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

That was my point. The two things are mutuallly exclusive. I am sorry but that does not make the vote illegal.

No it doesn't. The vote was legal. The bluster is not the vote. Can't you see the difference?

I also think you are confusing other things. The vote was non binding. However the last general election was fought out with a Tory manifesto to execute the will of the people. They won the general election so that gave them the mandate.  This really is not as complex as you are making out. The referendum leaflet that outlined the vote was clear that we were voting to leave or remain. We were never promised a vote on any deal. And people wonder why we get frustrated....

I’m still struggling with how they are mutually exclusive. The referendum was legal until one side broke the law. Then in my view it wasn’t. 

We gloss over it because it probably wouldn’t have made a difference. Still doesn’t change the fact in my view. 

The problem with the augments about the 2017 manifesto is two fold

1- the 2017 conservative manifesto says ‘deliver a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union and forge a deep and special partnership with our friends and allies across Europe’. That doesn’t sound much like a no deal Brexit to me. 

2- we have a chance to change our government on a regular basis and the majority of decisions can be reversed in successive governments. Brexit isn’t one. Well not for a while anyway. 

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8 minutes ago, JG220 said:

Well, if you read European papers you will see that we are. 

Hmm, and why do you think that the owners of a club would ever have a different view of someone wanting to leave the club,?

IF we are a laughing stock it is because Remain have given away, argued away or litigated away every advantage we had.

There is a level of naivity at play here I think.


Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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3 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Hmm, and why do you think that the owners of a club would ever have a different view of someone wanting to leave the club,?

IF we are a laughing stock it is because Remain have given away, argued away or litigated away every advantage we had.

There is a level of naivity at play here I think.

I think we’re saving you from yourselves 😁

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9 minutes ago, JG220 said:

I’m still struggling with how they are mutually exclusive. The referendum was legal until one side broke the law. Then in my view it wasn’t

There is absolutely no glossing over it. You are choosing to not listen and the assuming we are not addressing.

Because you are trying to link two separate things as one.

Let me make it really simple.  The vote was a legally correct process, undertaken under constitutional law and overseen by the electoral commission that is independent of political parties and government. As such it was 100% legal and correct. End of discussion.

Seperately to the process of the vote, you had political parties and organisations who independently of anything to do with the running of the vote were CAMPAIGNING for their cause. The legality of some of that campaigning was not correct. That is not the same as an illegal vote.

Please be careful as your arguments are confusing facts for supposition or hearsay. You cannot say that everyone THINKS it will be bad is a statement of fact that it is bad. Supposition at best, leading the witness at worst.


Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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1 hour ago, JG220 said:

 

If i was May, i'd try for a third time before the 29th,  i think that taking no deal off indefinitely as they have tonight, would mobilise brexiteers to vote for her deal. Whether that is enough or not, i'm not sure given that DUP aren't for turning, their issues are more fundamental with the backstop. 

Quoting myself, but this is exactly what has happened. 

3rd meaningful vote to occur next week. Let's see if the ERG lose their nerve. I still don't think she has the numbers though, as remain rebels are likely to move from voting for her deal this week to wondering if there isn't a 'better' outcome now on the cards. 

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4 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

 

Let me make it really simple.  The vote was a legally correct process, undertaken under constitutional law and overseen by the electoral commission that is independent of political parties and government. As such it was 100% legal and correct. End of discussion.

 

That's not correct. It was the electoral commission who identified illegal activity in the process. The only reason the referendum itself cannot be challenged is that it was advisory. It was then, as you say, 2017 manifesto to enact it. Your argument through these pages is that you knew what you were voting for in the referendum and now it needs to be enacted.

That isn't what the manifesto offers, if that is the new line of argument you wish to take. 

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Yeah - funny the electoral commission didn’t look at the pamphlet full of political propaganda and shite that the government had mailed to every single household.

That was a remain sided pile of lies


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38 minutes ago, JG220 said:

That's not correct. It was the electoral commission who identified illegal activity in the process

You are missing my point. It was the campaigning that was illegal - I am not disagreeing with you on that. However, .you said it was the vote. Two different but related things. You seem to be a master of obfuscation. I seem to be a pedant.

I did know what i was voting for. I was voting to leave. End of. I was not voting fo deal or no deal. WTO or Norway plus. I was voting to leave. I was told that if leave won we would leave. End of. So why haven't we? There is no new line of argument from me. We need to just leave. Is that plain and simple enough to explain my unchanged position?

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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@JG220 could I ask what you do for a living? And what were your reasons for wanting to remain?

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