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Euro question - 23rd June

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5 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I was told that if leave won we would leave. End of. So why haven't we?

In that case you misunderstood. It was an advisory referendum, which both main parties decided they needed to respect. Respecting the decision to leave could be interpreted all the way from Brexit in name only all the way through to a hard, no deal exit. The protagonists in every option will say ‘well we’ve left’, thus fitting your defintion.

Add in the issue of a land mass border which got ignored in the original debate and its unsurprising that no compromise in that spectrum can be found. 

 

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2 hours ago, JG220 said:

Respecting the decision to leave could be interpreted all the way from Brexit in name only all the way through to a hard, no deal exit. The protagonists in every option will say ‘well we’ve left’, thus fitting your defintion.

And I'm fine with that. I didn't vote for the detail, I voted to leave. So any of the outcomes above would leave me satisfied. Your argument seems to be but you can't just leave as we need to know the detail. You might want to know it or feel you need to vote on it. I don't. I eas happy with the options - we either remain or leave. We had till March 29th to thrash out a deal. Great if we do. If we don't then we just leave. Simples. I am very happy with that. It seems that it those who wish to Remain, are the unhappy ones who are delaying, blocking, obfuscating or usurping the process. I'm clear. Just leave. We can then negotiate a deal with the EU for trade just the same as every other country or trading block. 

Lots of your responses are using your view or interpretation as statements of fact - "my view is the vote was illegal" - they are not, they are personal opinion. When this is pointed out you just ignore it or brush over it with another personal opinion rolled out as fact.

As another example, I said the vote was legal and overseen by the Electoral Commission. Your response was, ah, exactly it was the Electoral Commission that spotted the illegal campaigning so that proves the vote was illegal. Well, (1) you proved my point re the ECs role and the fact they did their job (2) campaigning being illegal does not mean the vote was.

You say we brush over the detail of miss information re what life would be like after Brexit (battle bus propaganda etc) and then go to state Remain propoganda of what the future will be as fact. So, you're either a hypocrite in this context or you have a Delorean with a flux capacitor and you've been back to the future hence your categoric and unimpeachable knowledge that your version of the future is correct.

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The referendum had £9 million of undeclared expenses from the remain side, namely the leaflets sent to all households. 

Any misdemeanours from the leave camp are insignificant by comparison.

Furthermore the leaflets spelt out in full that leave would mean what is now known as a "hard Brexit".

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I didn’t say which side acted unlawfully. It is however true that only the Leave campaign (or elements of Leave - there were multiple organisations) have so far been found to have acted unlawfully. i think you’re probably right, there is moral question over the leaflets and so on from Remain. I actually think they not only objectionable but also unhelpful. Some of the rhetoric wasn’t helpful either, on both sides. 

 

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1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

And I'm fine with that. I didn't vote for the detail, I voted to leave. So any of the outcomes above would leave me satisfied. Your argument seems to be but you can't just leave as we need to know the detail. You might want to know it or feel you need to vote on it. I don't. I eas happy with the options - we either remain or leave. We had till March 29th to thrash out a deal. Great if we do. If we don't then we just leave. Simples. I am very happy with that. It seems that it those who wish to Remain, are the unhappy ones who are delaying, blocking, obfuscating or usurping the process. I'm clear. Just leave. We can then negotiate a deal with the EU for trade just the same as every other country or trading block. 

Lots of your responses are using your view or interpretation as statements of fact - "my view is the vote was illegal" - they are not, they are personal opinion. When this is pointed out you just ignore it or brush over it with another personal opinion rolled out as fact.

As another example, I said the vote was legal and overseen by the Electoral Commission. Your response was, ah, exactly it was the Electoral Commission that spotted the illegal campaigning so that proves the vote was illegal. Well, (1) you proved my point re the ECs role and the fact they did their job (2) campaigning being illegal does not mean the vote was.

You say we brush over the detail of miss information re what life would be like after Brexit (battle bus propaganda etc) and then go to state Remain propoganda of what the future will be as fact. So, you're either a hypocrite in this context or you have a Delorean with a flux capacitor and you've been back to the future hence your categoric and unimpeachable knowledge that your version of the future is correct.

You’re right, I perhaps haven’t responded to all your points. I try and hit the high nails. 

With most of my responses i try to back up with evidence (apart from where I have already done so). No doubt there is intepretation, in the same way that you do, but perhaps i was goading a little with my extrapolation to an illegal referendum. Remember though, that the result would have been challenged if it had not been advisory. At which point we’d have probably all referred to it as the unlawful referendum.

Back to your first point though about the nature of Brexit. I don’t understand your view. At the softer end of Brexit (CU, ECJ etc) you might as well remain, as its just a less good position. Still can’t sign up external trade deals, probably have to accept free movement and so on, don’t have a say in Europe, lose our benefits. Arguments which liter this thread. Leaving for the sake of leaving, and becoming a sudo-European state makes no sense to me. 

On your last point, which i think i understand. There are a set (whether you agree with them or not) of predictions of what happens in a range of Brexit scenarios. You’ll recall on the first attempt at May’s deal last year, Hammond even briefed Parliament that the UK would be slightly less well off than if we remained in Europe, but would be much better than the consequences of a no deal. Are you suggesting that we shouldn’t take notice of those? And to anyone that says that you only need to look at the current economic position to see that the predictions were wrong, well last time i looked we were still in Europe. 

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The rhetoric from both sides is still unhelpful.

We have the exact same problen in Scotland. The losing side refusing to accept the result of a democratic vote and constant pushing for another one. When does this type of selfish politics end and how does it serve the long term good of the nation and her people as it just prolongs uncertainty.

In the Scottish referendum we also had both sides lying, pedalling untruths and prophets, really Delorean owners with flux capacitors, confirming we were all actually doomed.

It is all rather disagreeable and in both cases it is the losing side who have and are attempting to unwind a democratic result. How can that be right and just?

With regards to your last post which occurred whilst I was typing above, my preference was and is for what people call a hard Brexit. When I voted that was what I wanted. To leave. No strings attached. My view has not changed but the options being pursued have and no matter how passionate I am I cannot change the cards that our politicians are dealing.

As for the future predictions, they are largely coming from pro EU camps. However, go back 2 years and we were all done for they said including the Chancellor and BoE.

Fast forwsrd to now and London is seeing massive inward invedtment and has been declared the number one city for tech investments etc only ladt month. The Governor of the BoE is more upbeat. Our economy has outperformed the Eurozone in those two years. Wages are up and debt is being reduced. Hardly the apocoplyptic scenario that has been peddled based on the forecasts for the past 2 years.  We do ourselves a huge disservice by talking ourselves down and labelling ourselves a laughing stock. Over the past 50 years the UK has proved time and time again that through regulation, policies and legislation we are able to move our position to maximise our business advantage and take advantage ftom changing business trends. We were at the forefront of offshore outsourcing, yet our Service Sector has grown impressively. We have moved our manufacturing base on. Granted it is not as big as it was but we have world class companies thriving.  Our workforce is intelligent, generally well educated, flexible and mobile. So we adapt. Contrast that with Germany, France, Spain and Italy. The power houses of Europe. We made the hard choices one or two decades ago. We are ready for the new world. They and their leaders are only now waking up to the consequences of their protectionism and intransigence.

I guess I'm just an optimist who passionately believes in the creativity and work ethic of the people of these Islands.

 


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The SNP want to be EU members but not UK members, which says much about their attitude towards the rest of the UK!

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28 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

 

Fast forwsrd to now and London is seeing massive inward invedtment and has been declared the number one city for tech investments etc only ladt month. The Governor of the BoE is more upbeat. Our economy has outperformed the Eurozone in those two years. Wages are up and debt is being reduced. Hardly the apocoplyptic scenario that has been peddled based on the forecasts for the past 2 years.  We do ourselves a huge disservice by talking ourselves down and labelling ourselves a laughing stock. Over the past 50 years the UK has proved time and time again that through regulation, policies and legislation we are able to move our position to maximise our business advantage and take advantage ftom changing business trends. We were at the forefront of offshore outsourcing, yet our Service Sector has grown impressively. We have moved our manufacturing base on. Granted it is not as big as it was but we have world class companies thriving.  Our workforce is intelligent, generally well educated, flexible and mobile. So we adapt. Contrast that with Germany, France, Spain and Italy. The power houses of Europe. We made the hard choices one or two decades ago. We are ready for the new world. They and their leaders are only now waking up to the consequences of their protectionism and intransigence.

I guess I'm just an optimist who passionately believes in the creativity and work ethic of the people of these Islands.

 

This is just as interpretative as your accusations of my postings. 

$1T of assets have been moved out of London since the Brexit process started (that’s about %10)

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/07/investing/brexit-banks-moving-assets/index.html

On the other hand, Fintech investment is at all time high and that’s brilliant for us.

https://qz.com/1549956/investors-are-shrugging-off-brexit-and-pouring-money-into-uk-fintech-startups/

So it’s probably a bit more mixed that your statement. 

None if this is black and white. I’m very happy to celebrate the successes, but just imagine how much further on we would be if we had not spent £2b on Brexit. 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/summary-costing-brexit

I wouldn’t underestimate the other European nations either, and certainly wouldn’t couch them in those terms. Germany and France especially. 

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45 minutes ago, oilmagnet477 said:

 

I agree with James that anything softer is pointless as he describes and we might as well stay in and be able to influence from within, but I wouldn't fancy the chances of the EU treating us with any sort of respect going forward - their simple rhetoric will be "Beware anyone else who tries to leave...."

My biggest issue now is where the hell does my vote go at the next GE? I would never vote for the joke left and the Tories have blown it again for a generation....

I actually think that Europe would welcome Britain ‘back’ (given that it hasn’t left) with open arms. It would be a very strong message to the general rising of far right anti-European (just to be clear I’m not calling brexiteers far right) sentiment in Europe. 

I agree though that it causes all sorts of issues. It certainly needs another vote, the result of which would be far from clear. 

I’m personally hoping for a long extension. 2-4 years? Something like that, to have time to start again (and spend another £2B. /Rolls eyes) and end up with a BRINO or no Brexit at all (so long as that is what was voted for in a new vote). Or they vote for May’s deal and lets just be done with it.  We can reintegrate later. 

Edited by JG220
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24 minutes ago, Neal H said:

the question was a simple one - do you want to leave, or do you want to remain.

That is part of the problem really. Do you want to leave - yes. Do you want to leave at all costs even if it screws the country for generations - probably not.

I don't really want to get involved in this, because I can see both sides of it. For me personally it comes down to us being an overpopulated country (and for the record I'm just talking numbers here I really don't care what background people have) and I live in one of the most overpopulated parts of it, and being dictated to from Brussels, versus the financial consequences. 

Crashing out without ANYTHING in place is a disaster to which just about anything is preferable and is tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face - this is our politicians fault in trying to make the exit in name only and/or failing to organise themselves to work together to best serve the country.

What we need is some time to get some basic agreements in place. The last thing we need is crashing out with nothing in place, closely followed by more uncertainty from an election or a second referendum.


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All good points, well made. I don't share it, but I do respect it. I believe we can and will achieve all those things while remaining self-governing.

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1 hour ago, Colin P said:

Crashing out without ANYTHING in place is a disaster to which just about anything is preferable and is tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face - this is our politicians fault in trying to make the exit in name only and/or failing to organise themselves to work together to best serve the country.

What we need is some time to get some basic agreements in place. The last thing we need is crashing out with nothing in place, closely followed by more uncertainty from an election or a second referendum.

Sorry Colin, I disagree. We don't need time. We have had ample time.  We now need to do what we could have done over two years ago and just leave and then sort the mess out. Instead what we are doing is to create more mess whilst avoiding to sort out the mess we had!

2 years ago we had the chance to say to the EU, here, we are invoking article 50 and we will leave within the 24 month period.  We are willing to work with you on securing a deal, however, unless your waive your insistence that we cannot negotiated in parallel with other trading blocks and countries on trade, to provide the stability our businesses, economy and people need. If you cannot do that then we will leave under WTO terms in 9 months with no negotiations and no financial settlement. You have 1 month to provide us your response.

At this point, we would have been dealing with the EU as equals and we could and should have made clear our position including:

1. All EU citizens that are currently residing in the UK will be allowed to stay. If they have been a resident here for 5 years or more, they will automatically be eligible for UK permanent residency or citizenship with the same rights as any other UK national.  If less than 5 years, then they can still stay, with full entitlement and on their 5th year anniversary they can automatically apply for and get permanent residency or citizenship. Can you please advise your reciprocal agreements for Uk citizens in the EU.

2. Visitors to the UK from the EU will need to pay for access to medical and other services, unless you reciprocate for UK visitors to any country in the EU.

2. We will continue to honour all relevant EU standards for goods and services for all things that we export or provide to the EU so we can trade under WTO rules with no issues around compatibility or standards

3. We will not invoke any tariffs for EU products or goods coming in to the UK, and instead we will use the money set aside for any settlement of a deal with the EU to compensate our businesses for the increased cost to their goods or services in the EU.

4. We will continue to provide financial support to all investment (space, defence, medical, educational) pledges to EU programmes and support in return for the same rights of access as we get now.

5. People in the EU will be able to apply for jobs in the Uk and reside here as temporary citizens for as long as they are employed, we expect the same reciprocal agreement from the EU otherwise it will be withdrawn

 

I think a simple statement along those lines, would have made our intent crystal clear and provide a very clear direction of travel for business, for people and for trade. We would have had a position. Instead, we have had a mess.that has been largely created by the politicians and groups who from the outset have refused to accept the decision of the referendum.

Instead, from day 1 of the result, we had obfuscation, utter disbelief and a position of subservity to the EU taken to not upset them.  Our politicians have made a complete hash of this and if we could, we should hold them in contempt, remove every last one of them and disbar them from holding a public office again for at least 10 years. Wipe the slate clean and start again.


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I also run a business but disagree with James, above regarding Europe. The reasons I have for voting leave are more a matter of principle and are as follows:

The EU changed without anyone in the UK being consulted, from a common market to a progressively federalist body. This was not what was originally promised.

EU membership promotes a massively discriminatory immigration and skills transfer system. Its almost impossible for a small company to employ someone from outside the EU despite having the required skills. I know as I have tried and failed. Whereas anyone from the EU can enter freely regardless of skill or lack of.

The EU is a self-serving organisation which is run in a manner which would not be acceptable domestically. For example expenses are kept secret. This is not acceptable here in the UK so why should we allow it? Why do they move their entire HQ to France and back every month at huge cost?

The EU is geared to big business and corporations and has more than 20,000 corporate lobbyists operating in Brussels. They care not at all for small business. In contrast with the USA which has a policy that every rule they make must be audited for any extra work caused to business. The EU facilitates tax avoidance on a massive scale by failing to prevent free movement of capital. Some of its tax avoidance deals were set up by Juncker who was later rewarded with the presidency. Just Ebay and Paypal alone have avoided paying huge amounts of UK tax by being allowed to invoice in Luxembourg. Apple recently shopped around for tax avoidance, settling on Jersey, all with the permission of the EU and we also lose their VAT revenue. They have also failed to close down the method whereby fake royalties are paid across borders, mainly involving Holland, as used by Starbucks. All of this because the corporations lobby hard to maintain these dodges. Then they have the gall to give the illusion they are anti tax avoidance, which many remainers appear to believe.

The VAT system within the EU is hugely complex and facilitates fraud on a massive scale. The UK has lobbied for years for the system to be changed because we lose out the most, all falls on deaf ears.

I could go on, there is so much wrong. I would be a remainer if there was any evidence we could change any of this behaviour, as we did with MPs expenses, but this simply will never happen.

In my own business I find the USA is a delight to deal with compared to EU countries who seem to be obsessed with paperwork and process rather than innovation and getting things done. Although I have to admit the products we sell are all tariff-free in the USA which does make trade very easy. I am in the process of turning away a big order from Germany as they want us to sign a 5-page agreement, in German, which I will not do.

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All good points. I still think that the benefits outweigh those clear issues and downsides. 

The ammemdment selection for tonight is very interesting! 

- 2nd referendum made it through despite 100 MPs agains it

- Preventing May from bringing her deal back again also made it through. 

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2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Sorry Colin, I disagree.

I'm both shocked and surprised :P

So accepting that the vote was to leave, as such that does need to be actioned. Whether you agree or not we live in a democracy so a vote needs to be carried through. The Leave/Remain argument at this point is, in my view, moot.

This has not been done. I don't particularly disagree with any of your thoughts around how that should have been done. There are undoubtedly other ways that those negotiations could have been done.

However, what has happened is essentially nothing. This arising out of Parliament as a whole trying to avoid implementing the vote. This is detrimental to everyone, both UK and the rest of the EU.

We've missed the opportunity to do it properly in any form and as a result of this political posturing there is still  basic admin to do to agree things that are really immaterial to anyone, but will in themselves cause a whole load of grief for no benefit and should be easily resolved in a short period.

Things like green cards, visas, driving licence extensions etc which really should be just a tick box to agree and equal benefit for all to just mutually accept - but 15 days isn't enough to do this. 

Yes, this should have been done 2 years ago, as should other things, but it wasn't.

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I think a simple statement along those lines, would have made our intent crystal clear and provide a very clear direction of travel for business, for people and for trade. We would have had a position. Instead, we have had a mess.that has been largely created by the politicians and groups who from the outset have refused to accept the decision of the referendum.

And that can be served now. "This is what we are doing, we think it would be an idea to try and knock the simple stuff on the head before we leave. If you'll agree a month or two to do this it is probably a sensible thing to do."

 

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I can’t remember three days in a row like these in parliament. 

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Parliament just appears to be voting against doing anything.

Since it’s Comic Relief day tomorrow maybe we should put the remaining cast of Monty Pythons Flying Circus in charge of the process?

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1 hour ago, JG220 said:

I can’t remember three days in a row like these in parliament. 

That's because we have never had such a bunch of self serving, inward looking, conniving [email protected] in the house before!  My thinking is we look at how every constituency voted in Brexit and what their elected member has voted. If they have voted against the will of their constituents (either for remain or leave) then each and every one of them should be hit with a legal charge of misrepresentation of duty in a public office.  We are in this mess BECAUSE the politicians, form all sides, are trying their damndest to NOT implement the will of the people.

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31 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Parliament just appears to be voting against doing anything.

Since it’s Comic Relief day tomorrow maybe we should put the remaining cast of Monty Pythons Flying Circus in charge of the process?

Yes, this bunch got just as much done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFrdqQZ8FFc 

 

 

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Never in our history have so many been stabbed in the back by so few

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Only here once

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WTF is Corbyn playing at? .

Just shows that his one and only agenda is to secure a GE. He doesn’t give a flying fcuk for anything other than his own personal glory moment. 

MPs earlier rejected an attempt to secure another Brexit referendum by 334 votes to 85.
And they also rejected a cross-party plan, to allow MPs to take control of the Brexit process to hold a series of votes on the next steps, by the narrow margin of two votes.
Following the votes, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn reiterated his support for a further referendum after earlier ordering his MPs not to vote for one.
He said: "Today I reiterate my conviction that a deal can be agreed based on our alternative plan that can command support across the House.
"I also reiterate our support for a People's Vote - not as a political point-scoring exercise but as a realistic option to break the deadlock."

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1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

That's because we have never had such a bunch of self serving, inward looking, conniving [email protected] in the house before!  My thinking is we look at how every constituency voted in Brexit and what their elected member has voted. If they have voted against the will of their constituents (either for remain or leave) then each and every one of them should be hit with a legal charge of misrepresentation of duty in a public office.  We are in this mess BECAUSE the politicians, form all sides, are trying their damndest to NOT implement the will of the people.

Its about more than Brexit though isn' t it. its now all about their own personal prospects. No one really believes in anything. Bit depressing really . 

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