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Barrykearley

Euro question - 23rd June

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My take fwiw.

Neither side could organise the proverbial, and with Boris now being effectively hamstrung and likely to not get his election, it's time for a second referendum before the 15 th October. 

Put it to us plebs again, with all the knowledge that we now have after 3 years of dicking about, with only one simple question :

1- should we revoke Article 50

2- should we come out of the EU on 31st October with no deal if one cannot be agreed.

Not sure if a referendum can be called more easily than a GE, or how this No Deal bill (if made law) would be effectively overridden by the new referendum

Half the country is gonna be pissed off anyway, so lets just get the fecker over and done with

rant over

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Greg, as before, there's little point in arguing with your obvious knowledge of the system and I don't think we will ever agree.

However I'm sorry, but I have to have one more go! - there is SO definitely a 'them and us' at play here. Whips aside, how can you not see that we have to put up with a voting system where the absolute majority wins, irrespective of the number of people who vote, versus a Parliamentary system that doesn't follow the same convention. If Labour were going to vote against the Govt, therefore clearly killing off the 2/3rd majority rule (a rule which doesn't apply to the general population when we vote), then why not vote? Abstaining is pointless.

Slightly off topic, if it weren't the case that there is a 'them and us' culture, how come Civil Servants who earn over £150k have their pension contributions capped at 7% whereas Doctors, on the same earning basis have to pay 14%.

How come a Civil Servant on £150k+ is 'poorer' than a Hospital Doctor (working all hours) on the same money? Don't get me started on MPs pensions!!!!!!

It's those with their noses in the trough who look after their own interests.


Is the price for that bit in Yen or £?

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1 hour ago, oilmagnet477 said:

 

It's those with their noses in the trough who look after their own interests.

And that, right there, says everything anyone needs to know. A bottomless pit of where does all the money go.


Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut!

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Only here once

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3 hours ago, oilmagnet477 said:

Greg, as before, there's little point in arguing with your obvious knowledge of the system and I don't think we will ever agree.

However I'm sorry, but I have to have one more go! - there is SO definitely a 'them and us' at play here. Whips aside, how can you not see that we have to put up with a voting system where the absolute majority wins, irrespective of the number of people who vote, versus a Parliamentary system that doesn't follow the same convention. If Labour were going to vote against the Govt, therefore clearly killing off the 2/3rd majority rule (a rule which doesn't apply to the general population when we vote), then why not vote? Abstaining is pointless.

 

I don't make the rules and FTPA is actually relatively recent and was seen as a positive step forward at the time. It really isn't them and us as parliament decide on all the laws so it is all them if you like. We elect them.

Labour abstained because they are in favour of an election and didn't want to be seen to vote against the motion. There will be an election soon once the no deal cliff has been deferred and Boris isn't calling the shots on a date. It may actually only make a couple of weeks difference in the end. Crucially all the opposition parties don't trust Boris to stick to an election date and currently no deal will still happen on the 31/10 so you can understand their concerns.

Dave - a referendum has to have a several stages of preparation from passing the primary legislation to confirming what the question is and then time for campaigning. All this would take 6 months at least so a GE is much quicker. Even the question asked can take time to agree as it can be very difficult to define. As an example it would be very difficult to have a three way question such as remain, leave with a deal or leave without a deal as the leave campaigners would argue it would split their vote.

 

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On 06/09/2019 at 12:33, march said:

Why doesn’t BJ just say that they will reduce VAT to say 5% for 2 years if we vote for a no deal Brexit.  That will offset any  problems with tariffs

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4 hours ago, LotusFella said:

Why doesn’t BJ just say that they will reduce VAT to say 5% for 2 years if we vote for a no deal Brexit.  That will offset any  problems with tariffs

That would cost c 1/8th of the Govt income per year for those two years.

Writing off c£100Bn/ yr for two  years would cost nearly as much as the government spent buying things in the bank bailout, but that bailout wasn't a complete write-off as most was repaid and we've still had many years of austerity to restore government finances for that, so we'd have many decades to restore writing off c£200Bn.

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Looks like the French could well be the saviours of Brexit. 


Only here once

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9 hours ago, LotusFella said:

Why doesn’t BJ just say that they will reduce VAT to say 5% for 2 years if we vote for a no deal Brexit.  That will offset any  problems with tariffs

What problems with tariffs? There will not be any problems with import tariffs, why would there be?

The only potential issue with a no-deal is export tariffs imposed by the EU but they would need to act within WTO so not a big issue.

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14 hours ago, LotusFella said:

Why doesn’t BJ just say that they will reduce VAT to say 5% for 2 years if we vote for a no deal Brexit.  That will offset any  problems with tariffs

I don't think VAT is the approach due to cost and remember most companies charge VAT on their finished goods and pay it on the raw materials or components.

What they could do is pay any tariifs on stuff we import. The low £ value will make our exports cheaper anyway and those companies that make most of their cash through exporting will see increased profits through their Treasury operations.  This is one of the reason the FTSE does better when the £ weakens as many of our FTSE 100 companies have significant operations and make significant profits overseas.


Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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So the speaker is going.

interesting times ahead. I think Boris will umm win a vote of no confidence later on today - canning any idea of an election.

all Boris needs to do is abide by the law now and write that letter. I wonder if once he’s done that he will write another telling the Eu to stuff the first letter up macrons arse and take us out.  He would have done nothing wrong then - he’s abided by the new law, the parliament clearly has confidence in him - out we go.

am I just dreaming 


Only here once

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46 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

So the speaker is going.

interesting times ahead. I think Boris will umm win a vote of no confidence later on today - canning any idea of an election.

all Boris needs to do is abide by the law now and write that letter. I wonder if once he’s done that he will write another telling the Eu to stuff the first letter up macrons arse and take us out.  He would have done nothing wrong then - he’s abided by the new law, the parliament clearly has confidence in him - out we go.

am I just dreaming 

I read an interesting piece from a constitutional expert who basically says that the Benn bill has not been written too well and may, in fact, be it's own undoing. You see, love them or loathe them, that ERG bunch headed by JRM really are the sort of bunch of saddo anoraks who would have absolutely read every sentence of presidence and form re the constitutional toings and goings of Parliament. I think the next couple of weeks are going to be fascinating as events unfold.  I actually don't think that Boris is as fooked as people think. I do think he has played them and the EU. I may, however, be very wrong.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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The House of Commons is interesting tonight.

the opposition is failing. Boris has clearly told the House what he’s going to do.


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So it’s slowly becoming clear and how ironic it all seems.

EU law is above local governments laws. Article 50 states it is the PM and only the PM whom represents our country with regards to the direction. This EU law cannot be changed by our local laws.

think human rights act........ just look how many of our laws has fallen foul to this.

theres a long time to go - but it could well be game set and match


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And this was part of the problem for me with the frog march towards a Federal European State.

Oh, but how silly of me, it must have been about immigration and the fact that I'm a right wing, stupid, bigotted, racist according to many in the Remain camp who were just sleepwalking over the cliff edge.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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Just wow!  And you thought Brexiteers were bad!.......

The Independent: EU accused of adopting ‘fascist rhetoric’ with new Commissioner For Protecting Our European Way of Life to oversee immigration policy.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-commissioner-for-protecting-our-european-way-of-life-ursula-von-der-leyen-a9098991.html


Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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I have had enough of it period. I would vote whichever way I thought would end it quicker....which would be no deal right now. But my balanced view is here (From an essay I posted on FB)

 I have been steering clear of commenting on the obvious debacle that is happening right now. My thoughts on what I want are my own. However, I have to say, don't be fooled into thinking this is about Brexit. This whole debacle is about power. Plain and simple. Power, who is in it, who has it and then there's a smattering of personal dislikes and age old divides. If you really think the Labour party are siding with remain then think again. They have consistently flip flopped to wherever they think the votes are. Talking of which, why don't they want an election now? If you think it's because they want to get Brexit out of the way first, you are again sorely deluded. They are 12 points behind in the Polls, even to a point where it was possible the Libs would beat them....hence their rush to be the "remain" party and the reason they won't vote for an election. Now, if you think this is one sided against Labour think again. Like I said, this is about power. The Tories have it and Johnson, having just got his lifes ambition of being PM won't let it go so easily. Why has he said "Let the people decide"? Plain and simple, it's not because he wants a hard Brexit, that would be disasterous for Politicans (Their poor pensions they get after just 10-15 years in the job...how long do you have to work to get a big pension? Plus their cushy positions in the EU autocracy and Directors positions and public speaking payments etc etc).It's because he is ahead in the polls which all say the Tories will get a clear majority. Why? Because they have sided with Brexit because they see it as the best option for power not only during Brexit but after, in a totally independent UK.. You see, the remain voters are now split, Labour and Libs and so is the Leave vote Tory and Brexit Party. However the difference is that, like UKIP, people won't vote for a fringe party in a General Election because they think its a wasted vote. So go for the next best...the Tories. Also think on this. If Scotland leaves the UK which side does it benefit? The Right wing Tories or the Left Wing Labour? No Matter how much I dislike Sturgeon and her Anti English Rhetoric, her party does keep the right wing on it's toes. This is rapidly dissolving into farce and this is YOUR parliament, apparently "Representing" you......No. This is just about themselves, power and further dividing the country (If we all agreed on something they wouldn't be needed). Lastly, Stop with telling people "They don't know what we were voting for". Just because remainers voted because they preferred the status quo or think open free borders are a good idea doesn't make them Idiots who will destroy the country. Leavers voting because they are worried about immigration etc doesn't make them "Racist" or "Ignorant leavers". They voted for their own reasons and in a democracy with free speech even if it is a vote you think is ignorant or foolish doesn't make it a less valid vote. They obviously thought about it because they took the time to vote in bigger numbers than any other vote. Living in Rural Norfolk I for one wouldn't be so stupid to say I know what concerns the 75% who voted to leave in Boston have. I don't live there day to day. Likewise the 72.8% who voted remain in Southwark. So it's about time both sides stopped mud slinging and got on with it one way or another because this farce of extension after extension only favours one group of people....those in power and clinging on to it on both sides of the divide. "Let the people decide!"..... We would if we had any decent options to decide on!! Instead we get Huffy puffy middle aged men hell bent on dividing us to keep their own fortunes or Nasty middle aged men who peddle the politics of Jealousy (Its not fair they have more money than me politics) and are too blind in their own ideals to see whats best for the country and people. Nuff said.

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Don’t panic: I might just have come up with the solution.

As it stands a General Election will only be about Brexit. No other policies will matter. There will be all sorts of deals and underhand tactics from each side to improve their hand in getting an MP majority one way or the other. There’s talk for example of Parties not standing in certain constituencies to avoid splitting the Brexit vote. That can’t be right in a democracy with so many local, national and international issues to consider.

So let’s separate the two things. Hold a General Election but with two votes: one for your chosen MP as normal and one for Brexit, namely choose to leave on 31.10.19 with or without a deal come what may as Boris says, or revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU for a minimum period of say 10 years, to avoid going through all this hassle again at least for some time.

This way we get the correctly elected MP in each constituency and a binding decision on Brexit one way or the other. Simples.

 

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That’s broadly what this sets out, through a new referendum prior to GE  which I personally quite like (but I would, right?)

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-a-referendum-is-coming-just-ask-oliver-letwin-a4234976.html

“Real power comes to those prepared to share it”. Interesting position from Osborne’s paper. 

Edited by JG220
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It’s going to set a very dangerous precedent if they don’t enact to will of the people in the first democratic vote.

this won’t simply go away


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4A2276B7-6B39-4072-B1DE-D7D29A609885.jpeg

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Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut!

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Jeez - what a mess.

https://news.sky.com/story/live-supreme-court-to-rule-on-legality-of-proroguing-parliament-11818306

And the opposition is not allowing us the plebs an election. Even the SWMBO has got the atlas and darts out to see where we can go if Labour gets in.

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