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Euro question - 23rd June


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@JG220 @andydclements @scotty435 and other remainers Chaps I really enjoy our discussions here and want to thank you for your input. I think healthy debate is really good and helps us all. I

A 2nd vote would be the thing that would get me on to the streets.   There is a large silent  mass of people who regularly hand over our decisions to government  via the democratic process.  We accept

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/tony-abbott-how-to-save-brexit/  

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Surprise surprise, Corbyn calls for Johnson to quit. What an effing shock that was!

This is the guy who constantly sits on the fence, frustrates whatever motion is being tabled and who wants to be PM, but knows that the only way he can be so is to  try to get opposing parties to vote him in as a temporary PM pending an election. He’s been offered a GE but votes against that (like he votes against everything). Why, because he is scared he will lose an election that Labour should walk and will then by default have to resign his coveted position.

as one Tory MP has been reported as saying, “I support the PM but we need a GE to help sort this out so let the people help by having a GE and when calling for a GE, unlike Corbyn, I mean it”

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On 29/08/2019 at 12:06, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

You could see the glee in Rees-Mogg’s eyes as he headed back to Aberdeen airport after meeting the Queen at Balmoral. Like a schoolboy, who has just got away with a naughty prank.

Naughty boys! It's detention for you Master Johnson and a good old-fashioned Victorian caning for you Master Rees-Mogg.

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Right lads only one thing for it, I'll dust off my suit and become PM. 

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

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https://www.facebook.com/ChangeBritain/videos/2377641105789492/

https://www.facebook.com/ChangeBritain/videos/2321811271244194/

https://www.facebook.com/ChangeBritain/videos/1735492333264270/

The list goes on

Were using laws made in 1611AD.  It just beggers belief.  

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As someone more eloquent than me said:

‘This is a profound moment, the deep system level functioning of liberal democracy in response to an out of control executive’

We should be proud. This will change our constitution. I’m not sure yet whether for better or for worse.

 

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On 08/09/2019 at 21:53, andydclements said:

That would cost c 1/8th of the Govt income per year for those two years.

Writing off c£100Bn/ yr for two  years would cost nearly as much as the government spent buying things in the bank bailout, but that bailout wasn't a complete write-off as most was repaid and we've still had many years of austerity to restore government finances for that, so we'd have many decades to restore writing off c£200Bn.

The EU recently said we owe them a lot of cash for some VAT we had not sent them.

Looking into it a percentage of the VAT collected goes directly to the EU. I was trying to find a figure but was not able to find a definite answer.

@andydclements You seem to know your figures I guess from your job so do you know what percentage of the VAT is paid to the EU?

buddsy

 

"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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Someone should calculate the figure of the entire amount of corporation tax on UK profits from the 300 multinationals which was lost to other EU countries such as Luxembourg, Jersey etc, including Apple, Ebay, Paypal which the UK has lost over the years as a result of EU membership. The figure would be huge.

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I'm not sure those companies ever paid much in Corp Tax, aren't they the ones with very clever accountants.

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3 hours ago, PhilW said:

Is the VAT on top of the “£350m” per week. Is this something else that is not publicised?

I think so.

There's also a percentage of tariffs (80%?) that we collect on the EUs behalf that is sent to the EU, which would go 100% to the treasury if we weren't in the EU.

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0.3% of total VAT collected in Europe goes to the EU budget so for a country with a 20% VAT rate this is about 0.06%. 

The total contribution of the UK in 2017 was EUR16.4bn so EUR315m a week inclusive of GNI, VAT, agricultural tariffs and all contribution inclusive of rebate.

On the taxing of large companies in Europe (by large read American) the EU has been at the forefront of the fight regarding tax avoidance. For example Apple has been forced in paying back billions to Ireland.

The UK has been moderately supportive (which means not at all) of any effort to crack down on tax avoidance as the UK is a net beneficiary of corporate tax optimisation. Because of the financial sector in the city of London, the UK collects significant taxes on banks and other financial services performed by American and European banks in the EU and booked in London. This is something that is under scrutiny by most other European state looking to repatriate this tax bonanza.

 

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1 hour ago, Bibs said:

I'm not sure those companies ever paid much in Corp Tax, aren't they the ones with very clever accountants.

Thats exactly the problem. They should have been paying CT in the UK at the UK rate but end up paying 1% in Luxembourg thanks to the EU.

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19 minutes ago, PAR said:

 

On the taxing of large companies in Europe (by large read American) the EU has been at the forefront of the fight regarding tax avoidance. For example Apple has been forced in paying back billions to Ireland.

 

Utter nonsense. The EU has done naff all about it, especially Ebay, Paypal and others which were set up by Juncker. They have created the illusion they care about this but they dont. how can they be "at the forefront" of acting against a system they put in place themselves which permits profits to be declared in any EU country regardless of where they were earned?

The corporations did nothing illegal, they made use of the system, so they will never have to repay a penny. The courts have already ruled Starbucks did nothing illegal.

I often see on remain-supporters social media pages that the EU are "anti tax avoidance". It is a huge con. They give the illusion they are acting but they do nothing to change the system.

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It think it would be very helpful if you could explain how the EU helped this practice and what the UK government tried to do about it and how they were blocked in doing so as I can’t find examples.

The latest development on this subject is the French tax on large companies selling goods online and challenged by the US potentially to the WTO. Do you think the UK government should try such mechanisms?

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10 minutes ago, PAR said:

It think it would be very helpful if you could explain how the EU helped this practice

Free movement of capital. Look at any Paypal or Ebay invoice and it will state it was invoiced by Ebay SARL or Paypal SARL (Luxembourg). 

VAT is also affected in addition to CT. When Apple were based for tax purposes in Ireland, all the VAT on intra-EU sales of downloadable products went to Ireland, which also meant customers had to pay the higher Irish rate of VAT. This might still be the case although corporation tax they now pay in Jersey.

16 minutes ago, PAR said:

 

The latest development on this subject is the French tax on large companies selling goods online and challenged by the US potentially to the WTO. Do you think the UK government should try such mechanisms?

Of course we should!

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But the UK government hasn’t done anything about this. In fact they promise exactly the opposite that if they were to come out of the EU they will decrease tax rates for corporates and do a trade deal with the US that would most likely maintain/improve the ability of US corp to not pay taxes in the UK so shouldn’t you rather ask the UK government to act? (as there is nothing in EU law that would prevent them from implementing adequate taxes)

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1 hour ago, Andyww said:

Free movement of capital. Look at any Paypal or Ebay invoice and it will state it was invoiced by Ebay SARL or Paypal SARL (Luxembourg). 

VAT is also affected in addition to CT. When Apple were based for tax purposes in Ireland, all the VAT on intra-EU sales of downloadable products went to Ireland, which also meant customers had to pay the higher Irish rate of VAT. This might still be the case although corporation tax they now pay in Jersey.

Of course we should!

It's complex and subtle than just setting up in Luxembourg or Ireland:

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp

Basically, set up 2 Irish companies that sell via a Dutch (or Luxembourg) subsidiary to exploit the local variations in tax law and the Irish loophole that allows the money to be moved offshore untaxed.

A Tory government is unlikely to do anything about this though, either pre or post brexit since their desire is to turn the UK into a low tax, lightly regulated economy

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1 hour ago, PAR said:

In fact they promise exactly the opposite that if they were to come out of the EU they will decrease tax rates for corporates 

Which is what they should do if it results in a larger overall tax take. Corporations paying 1% in Luxembourg is indefensible no matter what the UK would do.

Although they have not confirmed they will reduce CT again other than bluster to scare the EU which is a correct approach. I think its very unlikely they would reduce CT by much, if at all.

Why would the UK do a deal with the US which facilitates not paying UK tax? The UK government might be somewhat incompetent but not that much!

George Osborne had an attenpt atdealing with the multinationals with "diverted profits tax" but it never really worked.

Corporations are well represented in Brussels:

https://corporateeurope.org/en/lobbyplanet

 

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As mentioned by Tomsk it is a lot more complicated than this and most importantly membership to the EU has no impact either way on those particular questions.

For companies based in Ireland the tax treaty behind is the UK/Ireland convention of 1976 not the EU directives. The same apply with Jersey. 

Tax rate in Luxembourg is 17% so effective much lower taxes are due to other complex structuring and that won’t be an issue for company to have such rate going forward in the UK which ever way things go as long as the government maintains its last 40 year policy.

Regarding the choice of freedom of circulation of capital, this was unilaterally agreed by the UK (Netherlands and Germany did the same choice) in the 70’s (Labour government and reinforced by Thatcher) so far before Maastricht made it a pillar of Europe. In other terms the UK is one of the key sponsor of that pillar with Germany of that choice so that sounds difficult to see it changing unless Corbyn comes to power.

 

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But none of the above allows an order to be directly invoiced to the customer in the UK from Luxembourg. This is being done despite any pre-existing tax treaties not because of them.

To be fair, once Juncker is out of the way, things may slowly change in the area of EU tax avoidance. But its still inexcusable that this has been going on for years:

https://www.icij.org/investigations/luxembourg-leaks/why-has-the-european-commission-not-investigated-lux-leaks-tax-deals/

 

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12 hours ago, Bibs said:

I'm not sure those companies ever paid much in Corp Tax, aren't they the ones with very clever accountants.

Thoms Cook had some smart arse accountants I'm sure and as usual they couldn't see the collapse in front of them.

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