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Euro question - 23rd June


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i feel that the big issue is that after years of spin and lies from all political parties they cannot be trusted to give genuine unbiased information either way. At least by voting out we eliminate the unelected top tier  of leaches which is the European Parliament from dictating to us. I would take it one step further though and shoot 1 out of every 3 MPs and tell the remaining ones that they are next if they don't start working for the public interest rather than their own. I would also link their salaries and pensions to that of the general public, ie if the state pension so given at age 67 then they do not get theirs till they are the same age.

ohh dear I'm starting to rant, better still shoot them all

ahhhh! 

Dan

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@JG220 @andydclements @scotty435 and other remainers Chaps I really enjoy our discussions here and want to thank you for your input. I think healthy debate is really good and helps us all. I

A 2nd vote would be the thing that would get me on to the streets.   There is a large silent  mass of people who regularly hand over our decisions to government  via the democratic process.  We accept

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/tony-abbott-how-to-save-brexit/  

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I feel the big issue is that we voted to join the common market, a free trade union to allow the easier movement of goods and services across Europe and this has been morphed into a European Federal Superstate over the past 45 years.

It's actually quite shockibg that the people of Europe, including the UK, have sleep walked into it.

The Swiss, after 24 years on the edge have now said no thanks. We might be next and I actually don't think we'll be the last. Maybe we'll see a movement back to trade coordination and away from closer Political union, thus bring about the dismantling of the hugely costly European Parliament.

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European Federal Superstate ? Really ? The last time I looked this country

Did not have the Euro,

Is not a Republic,

Does not have proportional representation in elections,

Does not have a centralised police force,

Drives on the left,

Keeps different summer/winter times,

Has completely different personal tax rates,

Finances local government completely differently,

Has the highest bus and train fares in Europe 

Has way more liberal employment hiring and protection rights than  most other places in Europe,

Allied itself with the USA not Europe in the last  major military operation,

Has nuclear weapons along with only one other European country,

A completely different criminal  justice/ legal system.

I am leaving out all those scare stories about straight bananas, "vegolate",bent croissants and having to eat horses (oh sorry it was Tesco`s made us do that not the EU). They are tabloid press nonsense.   

...the above disinguishing features are surely enough to be going on with to argue that there is obvioiusly European cooperation (or maybe not these days ) but a  "Federal Superstate" ? No. The European Parliament has very little power to affect the decisions that matter in Europe. 

I hate allying myself with our Public Relations Professional Prime Minister but I  am for staying In the EU not because it is perfect (far from it, it certainly needs reform) but there are matters of principal aimed at keeping the peace and social justice that Europe subscribes to which must be conisrered along with the quest for cold hard trading cash.         

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13 minutes ago, basalte said:

The European Parliament has very little power to affect the decisions that matter in Europe.

Lucky it only had a budget of £1.8bn for 2015 with almost two thirds of that on wages alone! 

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/about-us/faqs.html

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And I for one reckon Sepp Blatter should be put back in charge of Fifa........

europe - don't make me laugh - it's an utter joke

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From Bibs link:

Following the implementation of the single Statute, the monthly pre-tax salary for MEPs for 2015 is Euro 8,213.02.

or  £6346.94 per month

or £76,163.28 a year plus expenses

Please can I be a Euro MP - I would definitely vote to stay in then! until then I will vote out.

How many Kinnocks are MEP's?, also this is worth a look http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192894/Revealed-How-Kinnocks-enjoyed-astonishing-10m-ride-EU-gravy-train.html

 

 

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Says it all really....... 

Bloody kinnock - and I thought ed milliband was a champagne socialist......

come the revolution - they all need stringing up

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The wage pales into insignificance when you look at their expense bills! 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

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Dan, I fail to see why stating all the differences between us and the rest of Europe is an argument for staying in. Its surely the opposite.

Peace is NATO. In fact the EU, in particular the EU foreign minister Baroness Ashton, almost started a war by provoking Putin over Ukraine. That episode was an almost textbook case of how wars start.

The bent bananas thing, unimportant but did the tabloids really make this up? http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1994R2257:20060217:EN:PDF

I cant understand why anyone would like politicians enough to want a whole other layer of them which ours, who are bad enough on their own, have to answer to.

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It's clear the whole European Union is indeed perfection personified. Consider.

Greece, immigrants, unused Spanish airports, massive swathes of youth unemployment, mass Eastern European migration, human rights act abuses, our nhs benign used as a free European health service, corruption at the highest levels, a whole chamber of folks who we have no power to elect,a gravy train from Strasbourg to Brussels. 

Thank god we now have one less rubbish item on a beech and a telephone call on holiday is fractionally cheaper now.  Yeah - thems really good reasons for staying with the status quo.

If it helps - I promise next time I go to the beach I will look for 10 bits of rubbish to personally pick up - and I will leave my mobile at Home next time I am unlucky enough to step foot on mainland Europe.

im voting out - and I hope we have someone whining like sturgeon does about Scottish independence if we don't get set free.

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Well, clearly this is a topic which polarises people - so I'm going to say one last bit and then bow out quietly...

As previously mentioned, I don't trust any politician to ever give me unbiased and straight facts. Most people on this website also think (and I agree) that a lot of journalists can't give an unbiased opinion when reviewing a car - so I doubt international politics is any different. In the absence of faith in any "facts", statistics or otherwise - I base my opinion solely on my experiences.

I have not experienced many of the issues that people write about. This is not to say they're wrong, or invalid, but I haven't seen them as a problem.

I've recently had two people close to me become terminally ill and found the NHS to be very effective in both cases. I've not had my village taken over with immigrants (although the bloke next door was from Romford, which might as well be Baghdad as far as locals are concerned), nor has anyone from Brussels turned up and told me my porch can't be painted that colour due to health and safety. And my bananas are bent as a nine bob note.

I enjoy the *perceived* benefits of being in the EU - and I believe that for me, both personally and professionally, being in is advantageous. There are a number of jobs/sales/purchases I have made recently which would have been simply impossible were I dealing with non-EU states. I am always going to vote for what benefits *me*, sod everyone else :P

I totally agree with many others here in that we genuinely don't know what will happen in either case. No doubt things will change whatever happens.

I did have the luxury of studying politics many moons ago, and my general feeling from having done so was that it tends to be much more popular to blame issues on a "broken system", which we may try and replace with a new one, and wind up spending more money and ending up with all the same problems. This mostly applies to internal issues, but I can see many problems that may be perceived as being EU issues remaining even if we leave.

Additionally, I really quite like Germany and the Germans as it happens. So that'll certainly be influencing my decision. 

So that's my opinion on the subject. I'm now going to slip off to keep looking for more Evora 400 videos :)

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I have to say I am not strongly opinionated on the Euro vote like I was on the Scottish Indy vote (No vote then and always), I probably sway towards leaving the EU but don't know enough about it to be sure, but I sure as hell won't be voting based on phone roaming charges!!  Anyone who makes such a decision made on the strength of a (£20?) phone bill a couple of times a year isn't clever enough to be given a vote ...... 

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12 minutes ago, j2 lot said:

I have to say I am not strongly opinionated on the Euro vote like I was on the Scottish Indy vote (No vote then and always), I probably sway towards leaving the EU but don't know enough about it to be sure, but I sure as hell won't be voting based on phone roaming charges!!  Anyone who makes such a decision made on the strength of a (£20?) phone bill a couple of times a year isn't clever enough to be given a vote ...... 

It was a £900 bill actually. You only ever need one of those ;)

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Great piece from Hitchens as usual in the MoS. He mentions the decision to produce medals in France (now recinded I think owing to protests) in context of the EU:

Of course France would never in a thousand years have considered giving a British firm the contract to make its medals. Quite right, too. 

The reason why we have even discussed awarding such a contract to the French is that we believe, as they do not, in the absolute rule of law – the thing which distinguishes us from all the rest of Europe. 

So when we sign an agreement saying our markets are open, we mean it. And when they sign it, they don’t. The only way we would ever prosper in the EU is if we sank to their standards.

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I will be voting out as I don't think we should have joined in the first place - I was given a detention at school (aged 11) prior to the referendum in 1975 for trying to persuade fellow students to vote out!

Isn't one of the main differences between the way things and done in the UK (and other Anglophone countries) and the continental way is that in the UK system everything is allowed unless specifically legislated otherwise, whereas on the continent everything is banned unless specifically legislated to be allowed, hence the reason why the EU sticks it's oar in everywhere with regulations for everything under the sun.

For those people who support the remain side, I'd ask the question if we did not belong to the EU and this was a vote on joining, would you be voting to join?

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12 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

Isn't one of the main differences between the way things and done in the UK (and other Anglophone countries) and the continental way is that in the UK system everything is allowed unless specifically legislated otherwise, whereas on the continent everything is banned unless specifically legislated to be allowed, hence the reason why the EU sticks it's oar in everywhere with regulations for everything under the sun.

No I dont think that is the case. I think the difference is that in the UK (and USA) the rule of law is absolute, whereas in other European countries laws often seem to be treated as a rough guide only, with adherence optional. The UK "gold plates" much EU legislation and enforces it, which in many cases puts us at a disadvantage. This difference in attitudes extends to corruption. It is far less likely to be stamped upon in other countries. Hence the example of FIFA which took the USA to bring to book. 

The reason the EU sticks its oar in is simply to do with power and control, and justifying their existence.

Fact is, we are much more aligned to the USA in the way the country operates, than any EU country. This extends to business, the Americans just get on with things whereas the EU seems to be obsessed with meaningless paperwork. Only yesterday I had an email from a German company about a product on our website, which costs $20 and they wanted me to put together a "business case" for them to buy it from us. We sell hundreds of these at a time to US customers. I politely declined.

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Opting in - to a mess that's collapsing in its own filth??? It just would not happen

i just hope it all unravels and the European  Union as we know it ceases to exist. Would be nice to see the German motoring industry start to decline

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10 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

Opting in - to a mess that's collapsing in its own filth??? It just would not happen

i just hope it all unravels and the European  Union as we know it ceases to exist. Would be nice to see the German motoring industry start to decline

Hope so too. There is no reason why it should be so big. The cars are no better designed. In fact many German cars have basic design flaws.

My wife has just bought a Honda Civic. Whilst being an extremely boring car image-wise, the Swindon-built Japanese/UK designed car is absolutely flawless as a piece of design and engineering and beats the crap out of any WV/Merc/BMW.

I have to say I might be a bit biased though. I have a hatred of the 911 which borders on the obsessive. 

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If your too busy to do your research - simply vote out.

mr Blair run a whole campaign for office based on time for a change - and this is no different. We have had decades of this bull with Europe. We are a cash cow to them and we are treated like Cinderella....... 

Out out out

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I will reiterate why the vote to stay in will win. Simple stupidity of our school system teaching people to pass exams and with no understanding of how the world works or common sense. I reiterate what the 2 young ladies said:

"I won't be able to go to Spain on holiday anymore"

"I will lose my job because we came out" Who works in Next...nothing to do with the EU.

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http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

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You are probably right Kimbers, but the fun is in the debate. I'm increasingly veering towards out, just in case anyone had not noticed.

I think the Euro is going to crash and burn, and Germany will change its stance once Merkel is out. Don't get me wrong, I think Merkel has done an excellent job for Germany and for Europe, however, I think the tide of change is now starting to sweep over her and her time is nearing an end. A new, more centre right German Chancellor will not wish to continue to pay for the southern European states lethargy and lax tax regimes. France is struggling really bad, it will collapse under its expensive socialist policies - already a migration of wealthy French to neighbouring Belgium is underway as the punitive tax regime in France starts to really take hold. Switzerland has said no thanks. And I think some of the Scandinavians are starting to think again.

In 10 years the Eurozone could be the Eastern European states plus Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Spain, Italy and Greece.........  Good luck with that one.

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I agree with Kimbers that the vote to stay will unfortunately win. I don't think it is just stupidity that will do it but also that many individuals are risk averse and short sighted.

At the moment we know what it is like like to be within the EU but no-one really knows what it will be like be outside at this point in history. I have seen or heard very little true objective debate on what it will be like on the outside, there is a lot of scaremongering, misinformation and extreme views (from both sides) drowning out any chance of true debate all of which sticks in peoples minds. As stated I have come to believe that the vast majority of people are very short sighted as well as being both selfish and greedy (human nature I am told), this leads to the view 'what's in it for me now'. Include this approach with peoples stupidity we are unlikely to come out with a solution that is best for the United Kingdom. Very few will be looking at what is potentially best for society and the country over the coming years.

There are articles available showing what the EU has achieved both good and bad but how many people are really going to investigate this in an objective manner?

For example:

The creation of the EU and Common Market had entirely appropriate goals : http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/1945-1959/index_en.htm 

So where has it gone wrong and where has it gone right? This question if answered honestly may help many people (and I include myself) arrive at a more informed decision but finding quality and objective reporting on this subject seems to be quite difficult at the moment.

My view at the moment is that we should leave (as can be seen in previous posts) but is it the correct decision? When I see such things as this the answer seems obvious:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11486817/France-is-Europes-big-problem-warns-Mario-Monti.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192894/Revealed-How-Kinnocks-enjoyed-astonishing-10m-ride-EU-gravy-train.html

and many more along with such matters as the complete and utter failure to handle the migrant crisis, Excessive Regulation, Bloated Bureaucracy, Financial Waste, Empire Building, the Common Agricultural Policy, EU grants being clawed back ruining companies and charities, countries taking the EU rules as 'more of a guideline' to be bent whenever they feel the need... this list goes on...

But the EU must have done some good (It does seem odd however that the Stay camp seems determined to say how bad it will be if we leave rather than promoting the benefits we get from the EU) so in the immortal words of Monty Python - "What have the Romans ever done for us"?. Does anyone know the answer as I am not sure I do. This is a genuine question, does anyone know?

 

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