Euro question - 23rd June

[Buddsy 1,456 1 Vehicles]

1 hour ago, Black Forest Power said:

please, DO NOT LEAVE US ALONE!

I dont have any intentions of leaving you guys alone. I want us to trade, I want us to be friends but I dont want your leaders ruling us and charging us for the privilaige.

We dont need tobe in a club to do so

Its like a bunch of families going out for a nice meal and one of the other dads telling off your kids and making everyone else pay for their meal.

buddsy 

[C8RKH 4,240 2 Vehicles]

I would hope, and do believe that @Black Forest Power that your input and views are welcomed on here and provide another perspective for us to view the situation from.  

Our relationship with the EU and the common market has not been an easy one. The French were complete [email protected] when we first wanted to join and even recently we were betrayed by Merkel (over Juncker's getting the presidency and the re-negotiations that Cameron attempted that ultimately led to the Brexit vote) and then there is Spain and their two-faced attitude too.  A lot of this fuels the discontent and the view of many "normal" British people that the EU and her heads of state cannot be trusted. However, on a personal level these same many normal British people have a very open, hospitable and warm welcome for their European counterparts either when they visit us in the UK or when we go and visit them in Germany, France, Italy etc.

I agree with your point that the UK is a large market and 1 UK leaving is like 19 smaller members going. However, nationalistic self interest is not just confined to the UK with Brexit, and each of the 27 has something that they want to get out of the UK leaving and whilst in general, I do agree that in the majority we have good friends in Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Poland, etc, we know that there are several countries, led by France and Spain who have a seething resentment of the UK and do want to make us pay.

I am all for the UK staying within the common market, this is one aspect of the EU experiment that has been good and positive. But if it means we have to continue to restrict our trading ties within the world and take all the other backage that comes with it (freedom to benefit surf; European Courts, EU laws, etc) then I just do not think it is worth it.

However, please keep posting and sharing your views. You'll certainly not get shot, tarred or banned by me  and I'm one of the looney Brexiteers!

 

[LotusFella 92]

Up to 92000 now!

[pete 1,157]

All the people calling for another referendum are assuming that the vote will be remain, if that is on the ballot paper, so how will they react this time if it is leave?

[Barrykearley 5,357]

Best of 5 ??

[100th_Idiot 271 2 Vehicles]

I voted remain last time but would be leave this time.

[Barrykearley 5,357]

May we ask why @100th_Idiot??

[100th_Idiot 271 2 Vehicles]

24 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

May we ask why @100th_Idiot??

I was borderline at the original vote but felt we would be marginally better of economically staying in and continuing to work reforming the EU from inside. The uk has always acted as a bit of a brake on some of the more integrationist aspects of the EU. Since the referendum went brexit I knew we would not be able to negotiate a good deal. The EU has a reputation for being tough trade negotiators (google comments from us trade delegations). 

Now we have a not great deal on the table which was inevitable and with the backstop we have handed the EU a massive club to wield in negotiations of future trade relations. The EU will use that (French and Spanish fishing rights etc.)

Its sad we seem to have lost the ability to have a civilised debate about the issues. I have friends on both sides. Had a good discuss in with a taxi driver two weeks ago. But even in this forum it can descend to name calling whether remoaners or brexit extremists.

I still think Bo Jo is a self serving dangerous idiot and Rees Mogg is a twat. Northing will change that.

It's clear to me if we end up staying close to the EU our influence now will be severely weakened. So from here we are better off out. Back to my original supposition after the vote. Get out quick and don't Pisa away two years negotiating for a crap deal.

 

 

[Chillidoggy 3,567]

Agree with you ref BoJo and JRM. Dangerous men, the pair of them.

[duncx 70]

@BlackForestPower - I am far from thinking you impertinent, I welcome your input.

The fundamental problem is this - we originally joined the common market and everyone I know thinks this was a good idea. Since then the EU has changed beyond recognition with deeper and deeper integration, and until now nobody has bothered to ask us if we are still happy with this. If the EU was still simply a trading block there is NO WAY that the UK would have voted to leave.

I know a number of leavers and remainers, all intelligent people who voted their way for their own reasons, but ALL want to remain friends with our European neighbours. I'm sure it will all turn out ok  

[march 579 1 Vehicles]

Well the petition is just coming up to 110,000 and the count is speeding up - pretty sure it wont make any difference at all.

[SFO 87]

I voted remain too but would vote leave now. 

The EU has truly shown its ugly sides since we voted to leave. I don’t want to be stuck in a Club where leaving is such a pain and where we are punished like naughty kids for daring to think for ourselves, where the folks running it are running it for their own self interests and where fundamentally their way of operating and thinking is so different to our own.

Best we bite the bullet now and extricate ourselves before it becomes even more impossible later. We have been through lots pain and hassle now, we may as well finish the job. 

[Steve V8 1,231 1 Vehicles]

11 hours ago, Black Forest Power said:

I do not like at all that EU is not flexible, not ready to reform

@Black Forest Power your comments and concerns are welcome, it good to take onboard your perspective from outside the UK. 

The above section from your post, for me sums up why a lot of us here want to leave. The EU over the years has slowly but surely granted itself greater and greater powers. Our country's infrastructure, national health and welfare services are now at breaking point, EU freedom of movement rules have made us a honey pot for economic migrants from inside and outside Europe. We welcome with open arms the majority who come here to work (without claiming housing benefits, which unfortunately many do), but many also come to abuse our welfare system, and within EU law we are powerless to stop it. We cannot cope with the influx on average of around 250,000 people per year every year. And certainly don't want the people, sex and drug traffickers, pickpockets, shoplifters and thieves from certain Eastern European countries, but remain powerless to do anything about it.

The EU's unelected beurocrats fail to recognise the needs of its individual members, it has given itself the power to overrule democratic decisions, it has become too big for its boots, and without reform, we no longer want to be a part of it. Given the chance to control our borders and laws, with reform, most of us would probably wish to remain.

 

[Andyww 1,108]

Above all correct.

It looks like another big push for a second referendum today, this time from some Tory MPs. I do unfortunately think they will get what they want.

What would the result be though? One of the phrases which was repeated ad-nauseum by remainers during the first vote was they wanted to "remain in a reformed EU". Well they cant use that again! Any talk of being able to reform the EU will be laughed-at next time.

I do think that enough people will have been scared shitless by fake news next time though to swing if to remain.

[PaulCP 412]

I see Tony B liar has been given air time again and is still trying to interfere by undermining protocol and meeting individuals in the EU. Can someone please find a way of calling his actions treason and lock him up in the Tower of London! 

Then we have the master of “let’s keep having a referendum until we get the result that I want” getting on her soapbox again, telling labour what to do. Not that she’s got another motive in mind at all 

 

[Barrykearley 5,357]

That petition is at 145k now. I wonder at what point they will start to take notice.

ken Clarke’s position on not wanting another vote is the key for me - they’ve clearly looked into this at great depths

[LotusLeftLotusRight 730 1 Vehicles]

What’s that? 0.2% of the population? Pretty meaningless when compared to the 17.4 million who voted leave  in 2016.

Even Boaty McBoatface polled 125,000 votes back then.

Edited December 16, 2018 by LotusLeftLotusRight

[Buddsy 1,456 1 Vehicles]

2 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

What’s that? 0.2% of the population? Pretty meaningless when compared to the 17.4 million who voted leave  in 2016

You are right just a tiny drop in thre occean but it is 150,000 people in 3 days expressing a voice. 

The Gov did respond saying the deal they have is the best deal for the country but this petition lets them know not everyone is behind them on what they are pushing.

Probably wont change a thing but it might brought to the attention of Mrs May in which case it may well be in the back of her mind.

It also shows a level of support to other people like me. I am not alone. 

If it does get to the point where we are required to take to the streets I think a petition such as this may increase the number of people who would make the effort to get out and protest.

 

buddsy

[mdw 201]

A 2nd vote would be the thing that would get me on to the streets.   There is a large silent  mass of people who regularly hand over our decisions to government  via the democratic process.  We accept they will F&^% it up some times ( quite a lot of times)  but thats life and democracy and we get another vote every 5 years.   When you ask us for a direct vote I expect its results  to be carried out.   There are a lot of middle aged middle class  people who I know  who have told me this ignoring of the democratic process is the one thing in their whole lives  that will make them march.   Its not actually the eu question its the disregard of the popular vote.   They should have worded it differently ( asked for a 60/40 minimum split)  if they wanted a different answer. Decision is made. What ever happens we make it work, we dont just collapse on the floor and say the end of the world has come.   

[LotusFella 92]

34 minutes ago, mdw said:

A 2nd vote would be the thing that would get me on to the streets.   There is a large silent  mass of people who regularly hand over our decisions to government  via the democratic process.  We accept they will F&^% it up some times ( quite a lot of times)  but thats life and democracy and we get another vote every 5 years.   When you ask us for a direct vote I expect its results  to be carried out.   There are a lot of middle aged middle class  people who I know  who have told me this ignoring of the democratic process is the one thing in their whole lives  that will make them march.   Its not actually the eu question its the disregard of the popular vote.   They should have worded it differently ( asked for a 60/40 minimum split)  if they wanted a different answer. Decision is made. What ever happens we make it work, we dont just collapse on the floor and say the end of the world has come.   

TOTALLY AGREE!

[jonwat 260]

Should never have put a bunch of remainers (May, Hammond & ALL the civil service) in charge of getting us out. 

She's rolled over & submitted to EVERYTHING they've demanded by over ruling her negoiaters (David Davis & Dominic Raab). 

[Kimbers 1,401]

My issue now is that any new referendum vote looks likely to be a 3 way split. 1. Remain, 2. Leave with Mays Deal, 3. Leave with no deal.

For me this is fundamentally against Democracy and an obvious blindside by the Politicians to split the leave vote 2 ways while everyone else votes remain.

If there is a second referendum I truly believe we will see much worse than we are in Paris at present. I also think UKIP will get in at the next General Election should we not Leave. 

[andydclements 485 2 Vehicles]

9 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

My issue now is that any new referendum vote looks likely to be a 3 way split. 1. Remain, 2. Leave with Mays Deal, 3. Leave with no deal.

For me this is fundamentally against Democracy and an obvious blindside by the Politicians to split the leave vote 2 ways while everyone else votes remain.

If there is a second referendum I truly believe we will see much worse than we are in Paris at present. I also think UKIP will get in at the next General Election should we not Leave. 

Three options doesn't have to be one where it splits the "leave" vote.

It can be set in many ways. Just one example would be 

1) stay

2) leave, whether we have a deal or not

3) leave, only if the deal is in place

4) leave, and we don't want a deal.

 

It would probably need to be simpler than that for the electorate to not get tens of thousand of errors, but I'm sure you get the idea that three ways doesn't mean diluting the leave options.

It could also be

 

If we have  a deal,we should

1) leave

2) stay

 

If we don't have a deal we should

1) leave

2) stay

[Barrykearley 5,357]

Political elite are shaking - they know the backlash that will occur.

May will force the deal to parliament - she will lose the vote. We will exit 

 

 

 

 

I hope

[Chillidoggy 3,567]

I’m ready.