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Evora Sport 410


Bibs

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Like you Joe I've no desire to be in a cult - unless there are some benefits I haven't yet discovered. Just what does go on at some of these meets? 

Clearly though we both signed up to this forum and bought an Evora so have voluntarily joined up to this forum at least. Buying the Evora for me was prompted by the package offered with the steering and handling being a key part of that package. For the money there was nothing equivalent so I'll happily live with some small quirks. I agree with Andy above though in that journalists seem to like to regurgitate the same old nonsense with Lotus products, and probably simply because Lotus don't have the advertising budgets of the big corporations.

The fact the engine and some other parts are not pure Lotus is a plus point for me as it means the service and future maintenance costs and parts availability are much better. If I won a million pounds I might well buy a Mclaren, but if I won £180k then I'd probably stick with Lotus knowing I can afford the servicing and running costs. 

I'm now considering that it may not be too many years until self-driving electric cars take over. If that is the case then I'm going to enjoy the driving experience of an Evora for the next few years as this might be the end of a golden age after which they'll all be track day cars. In the case of many Ferraris they are really simply eye candy as their owners seem to be overly concerned with adding miles and protecting their investment value rather than actually driving them. I'd venture that Lotus offer a broadly equivalent driving experience at a much lower price point, so more of an enthusiasts choice rather than a bankers bonus buy status symbol.

For the moment I think I'll keep my Evora S. I like the car and its quirks are minor really, but if they do a lightweight 425 or 450 2+2 then logic may disappear and I could be tempted to spend again. I'm glad they've done the 400 and the 410, but there isn't quite enough to tempt me to pay the difference yet.

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On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 14:22, hyteck9 said:

What choices do I have?  I'm sure my car is already built. 

Without getting your hopes up too much, after a brief chat with someone in the know today, and if all the stars line up just right you may be able to change your order to a 410 if you wish. I'll find out more on Monday for you if you like :)

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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I can certainly ask. 

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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Much appreciated.  While I've found one lotus dealer near me that is responsive to some extent, hence I placed my order with him, they don't seem to have much info from Lotus US.  That, or Lotus really doesn't have any solid ETA on when the 400 will be cleared for sale.

 

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4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

No need to join the cult Joe and not everything Lotus does is great, we know that. But I guess I (and maybe others too) do get tired of the same old crap being spouted by journo's and others (and the others being mainly owners of other brands who have only ever seen a Lotus, not actually been in one) about Toyota engines, plastic, lots of trouble, it won't be reliable. Most of that is just complete and utter tosh and the failings (like engines literally going bang) of brands like Porsche just get ignored or swept under the carpet. That's what makes me fight for the little guy...  :0)

But hey, I'm perfectly happy to have a discussion about different points of view and along the way I learn some new things.

Which F-type is the stripped out ultra lightweight track focused one of the range by the way? And if you look at the Porsche 911 equivalents then they start at a lot, lot more than £80k. Is it just that people buy a Lotus because they can't buy something better then?  And as for your "it ain't no Mclaren" quote then you're spot on. It ain't. Which maybe explains why it is half the price of the cheapest Mclaren and maybe why Mclaren can afford more bespoke bits as opposed to raiding car bit bins.  Again, how can you compare an £80k car and a £150k car and call out the fact that one is more is more exclusive and bespoke than the other and not see either the irony, or whatever, in the comment?  It genuinely confuses me.

 

All my cars currently have Toyota engines, so I'm not biased against them, they are bloody reliable but a bit dull IMO. I had heard about the exploding Porsche engines before I bought my Evora, but that's not why I didn't buy a 911 - I just didn't fancy one.

I do however think that at a 70-80K price point, rather than the 50-60K price point the Evora started with, Lotus really should be cracking open those engines and up-rating the internals, or paying someone like Swindon or Cosworth to do it for them. They seem friendly with Toyota - how about sawing the now defunct LFA engine down to 6 cylinders - that would be bespoke!

What cars am I allowed to compare the Evora with? If I mention that some much cheaper cars have better switch gear and climate control, I'm told that's because they're mass produced rubbish! If I mention another fun, 2+0 I'm told it's too heavy to count, but apparently a 1125kg Exige isn't a more track focused ultra light weight alternative? I threw the Mclaren in there because apparently the new 540C is about £125K - which to me isn't a world away. What do you think a 450BHP Targa Evora will cost?

I'm not trying to run down the Evora or Lotus at all - my Evora is a very nicely screwed together, quick, comfortable B-road blaster that I'm sure will also be a lot of fun on track, but I really don't 'get' the Evora 410.

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9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Whether we like it or not, or think it is appropriate or not, the simple fact is that Porsche is the benchmark that Lotus is ALWAYS referenced to. So I'm not sure what you're saying here as whatever Porsche produces can seem to be nothing but good, yet whatever Lotus produces is somehow labelled as inferior / quirky / something else.

Indeed, if you take your points re Porsche being a lot bigger fish that sells way more, surely, our response should more positively be leaning towards Lotus as they are, pound for euro, punching way above their weight.

And finally, the reason why Porsche is not struggling to export its killer-products to the US is just the point you raised, it's size!  Which means it has the ability to deal with different market legislations in a better way. My understanding of the delay with the 400 in the US, is that it is down to the US regulators side of things, not Lotus. But I am happy, as always, to be proven wrong here as I am not certain of that.

In most markets for other things - a niche, almost artisan, hand made product sold in limited numbers would command a massive premium. But no, not for Lotus, it is instead pulled up for not having the tacky plastic mass produced of its more common and seemingly illustrious rivals and for being cheaper (if you compare the Evora to its proper rival the 911). Yes, I'm terribly biased. Sorry ;)

 

Lotus can't and shouldn't copy Porsche policies, as I said in the previous message, they are too different companies in size and in alliances they have (Porsche works in conjunction with VAG from whom they get Diesel engines and a lot of other technologies); when, if ever, and I don't hope for that at all (I'd never would wanna see an SUV with the Hethel badge), they will be like Porsche (and I stress the fact that I don't talk about the cars they produce, just about the company itself) they could start acting like them.

I understand and agree that the problems they are having with the 400 introduction in USA are not their fault but, as I read from hyteck9, they are not even keeping the american orderers informed on what's going on with them. But let's talk about my own experience: if Lotus had given my local dealer a 400 IPS to test, maybe they'd have earned another 2K€ from me: while having just been able to try the "old gen" IPS on the used S that I've test driven I chose the manual not sure to believe on word the dealer that was telling me that "the new 400 IPS is a lot faster and better".

I love the Lotus brand since way before I've ever owned one and the Evora is the first car in my life that I buy for the second time (I usually prefer to change and try new things, provided I can't and don't like to change car every year). I like a lot more to own a niche, artisan-made car that most people can't recognize rather than "just another 911" perfectly built (when it doesn't go on fire ;) ) with german high industrial quality standards. And I didn't care, I even found it fascinating that my Evora had a few screeches from the interior panels on bumpy roads or that I had to glue two times the driver door handle cover that kept falling off: it's the price to pay to have an unique, hand-built car.

So I'm a Lotus lover and since a few years also owner but that doesn't mean I must applause every thing they do like a religion believer: the 410 IMHO is not "useful" to them: it conflicts with some other models they already sell (mostly the Exige V6) and with its inappropriate naming (I know that they now wanna use this naming rule with the engine power figure) is casting a little bit of shadow on what is their main product (the 400).

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I think the 410 is mostly about having a "new" Evora to take to Geneva and to keep Lotus in the public eye.  When you only have 3 models which are not updated with the regularity of your competitors, you have to improvise.  If Lotus stays profitable this may change, but Lotus is far from out of the woods financially.

 

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I get the impression Lotus would have no trouble upping the engine power quite easily, but I believe the gearbox may be a weak link. Wouldn't be the first time...

James Martin (JayEmm)
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10 hours ago, Gravel said:

 

All my cars currently have Toyota engines, so I'm not biased against them, they are bloody reliable but a bit dull IMO. I had heard about the exploding Porsche engines before I bought my Evora, but that's not why I didn't buy a 911 - I just didn't fancy one.

I do however think that at a 70-80K price point, rather than the 50-60K price point the Evora started with, Lotus really should be cracking open those engines and up-rating the internals, or paying someone like Swindon or Cosworth to do it for them. They seem friendly with Toyota - how about sawing the now defunct LFA engine down to 6 cylinders - that would be bespoke!

What cars am I allowed to compare the Evora with? If I mention that some much cheaper cars have better switch gear and climate control, I'm told that's because they're mass produced rubbish! If I mention another fun, 2+0 I'm told it's too heavy to count, but apparently a 1125kg Exige isn't a more track focused ultra light weight alternative? I threw the Mclaren in there because apparently the new 540C is about £125K - which to me isn't a world away. What do you think a 450BHP Targa Evora will cost?

I'm not trying to run down the Evora or Lotus at all - my Evora is a very nicely screwed together, quick, comfortable B-road blaster that I'm sure will also be a lot of fun on track, but I really don't 'get' the Evora 410.

Cracking the seal on the Toyota engine pretty much means exposing Lotus engines to reduced reliability... And after sales problems the company pretty much wants to to avoid at this point cause they are focussing their efforts elsewhere. Besides without opening the engine block they manage to get reliably and quite cleanly (225g emission rated) 400+bhp.There's a lot the can do by just fiddling with the induction, the ECU mapping and the exhaust tuning. They are doing it and most people who have tried the car did not recognize the Toyota V6. 

Lotus doesn't really need Swindon or Cosworth, their propulsion department is more than able to get power out of any powerplant, obviously they can get in excess of 450 bhp of the current 2GR. Problem is the gearbox can't cope with the torque. I'm pretty sure the powers that be at Lotus are working on the issue. There are only a few solutions due to the engine layout: 

option 1: stick to Aisin (A.I and A.W) and get them to uprate the BG6 and 6F45 or 8F45 so that they can cope with 500+nm. It is possible but easier said than done as no other clients of Aisin needs that much torque coming from a transverse layout as of now. Keep in mind that with Volvo new eDrive engines and BMW series 1 car and SUV  things may change quickly as I don't think BMW enjoys watching Mercedes and Audi getting all the laurels in the hot hatch war. Toyota doesn't need that kind of gearbox but they also want Aisin to be able to stand on their own to feet.      

option 2: ditch Aisin for another gearbox manufacturer with a suitable  transverse transmission able to cope with 500 nm... Problem is there's not much competition in that niche as only Getrag does it and actually there's no manual transverse transmission that can cope with 500nm available on the market right now, officially - Getrag 6MT480 is close but not quite there - however there is a 7DCT500 that is rated at 560nm. Both transmission are pretty much drag and drop but cost is sure to be an issue and the potential package would need a while to be developed properly. 

As for the engine, getting a more potent powerplant will probably come, Lotus could get new Toyota units soon, the moment Toyota ups its production of their newest  2GR-FKS. However people should forget about the L-FA engine, it was a Lexus halo project, nothing more nothing less. Toyota/Lexus won't even go back there There few flagship the LC500 gets a "newish" 5.0L V8 which is the modified "F" engine previously seen on the IS-F, RC-F or GS-F. Maybe, just maybe Lotus could ask Yamaha to do what they often do for Toyota: redesign camshaft, piston and crankshaft and deliver the parts directly on the production line so that the "F" engines are produced at the same time as regular Toyota engines that would cost a lot less than reopening the engine.    

Should Lotus ditch Aisin gearbox for the Getrag the cost of the car will go up pretty much automatically to cover the cost of the new gearbox. However should Lotus crack open the engine to fiddle with the crankshaft and pistons the cost of the car would go up significantly.

Lotus is working on finding the sweet spot right now. remember that if their financial situation is improving their operating budget remains limited for now.

I won't dare to give you a price for the Evora 450 Roadster, however it is safe to assume that the Evora 400 Roadster will cost a  premium over the coupe, somewhere between 6 and 10k would not be illogical!.  Bibs probably has a much more precise idea of how much that premium would be.  I doubt they will go beyond that if the roadster doesn't come with an automated roof mechanism. We will know soon enough anyway maybe as early as mid-march.  

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We have registered our interest in the 410, and I am hoping that like the 311 when the car goes into production it will go from 410 to 420. No I won't notice 20bhp or even 10hp over the base 400 I just think it is a better Evora for us!

I like the carbon diet, when you compare the weight of the 400 auto (circa 1420kgs or at least it was last time I looked) to the 410 auto (1337kgs) if you include 23kgs for AC & ICE/reverse camera this gives 1360kgs 

i think it is good that lotus have variants of the 3 cars and hopefully a few more over the coming months

yes I feel for the guys across the pond who are still waiting for their 400's

the last time I spoke to the hub, 400 roadster would have an uplift of about £2K over the coupe

Darryl & Sue

Proud to drive and own since new a true British supercar the Evora GT430

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I think the focus in this thread on power is a little misplaced.  The lower the weight of the vehicle, the less high power matters.  Right now, the Evora is around a 100 lbs lighter than the 911.  Love to see a larger delta versus the Porsche.

But there is an even larger issue here: what should a sports car be?  And you are seeing different answers.  Until you get to a GT4 or higher levels of 911s, Porsche seems to say that your sports car should drive like a Camcord until you press a "sport" button.  Jag thinks a sports car should have the appropriate howl.  Lotus is actually more nuanced.  Lotus claims lightness and the Evora is relatively light.  Also part of the Lotus formula is sound and the relative lack of electronic toys in the cabin.  Personally, I agree that a sports car should let me know I'm not in a Camcord all the time, though not in a bad way.  IMHO it should be a little louder, a little lower, more driver focused cabin, fewer electronics, a manual, etc.  The overall impression the minute my butt hits the seat or I turn the car on is that I'm in a driver's machine.  There are actually not many cars that give you that impression the minute you get in the car and by all accounts the Evora is one of those cars that you would actually want to drive every day.  The current Elise/Exige car too raw for most people to be daily drivers.   

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I think we all agree with that bibs. And under those circumstances the 410 is a bit underwhelming when we know the engine goes to 460 in the 311, and that there is therefore plenty of opportunity for a 420,430,440 and so on. 

I still like the 410 though :D

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48 minutes ago, Bibs said:

The beauty of the 400 is that it's a hoot to drive but also a 2+2 useable, almost sensible car. 

See, a family car!

48 minutes ago, Bibs said:

I'll also be very surprised it any 410 owners use theirs for the school run. 

Now, you say that .... ?

Are the carbon seats compatible with a Britax?!?

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On 2/27/2016 at 10:44, Bibs said:

Without getting your hopes up too much, after a brief chat with someone in the know today, and if all the stars line up just right you may be able to change your order to a 410 if you wish. I'll find out more on Monday for you if you like :)

Thank you bibs.   I am certainly tempted by the 410 and all its cf bits.  Options are good to have. Do let me know.

 That said, dates are a big question mark and an important factor.  If my 400 is going to show up next week, and Lotus has just done a terrible job of letting me know this, then I probably will not want to wait another year for the 410 USA version.

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21 hours ago, The Pits said:

I have to agree with the essential quality of the Evora platform. You only have to see them being built to realise how much goes into making one. The tub is also considerably stiffer (nearly twice!) than the Elise tub and with things like the forged aluminium suspension arms it is that rarest of things - an over engineered car where the time and money was spent on the stuff that really matters (rather than just the stuff you poke and prod in the showroom). It's a strategy that hasn't found as many buyers as it deserved, much like the Honda NSX in that regard. The slow sales are in no way a reflection of the quality of the product.

The Exige V6 is something of a frankenstein car but many of the most interesting cars were, starting with the AC Cobra. I have no problem at all with the biggest engine in the smallest car formula, it works wonders more often than not. I personally consider every one of the Exiges to be an automotive masterpiece in its own right. Lotus invented a new genre of car which is yet to be seriously attempted, let alone bettered by anyone. At a stretch you might say with hindsight the TVR Sagaris along with the Noble M400 (maybe event the Z3M breadvan?) were thinking along the lines of the V6 version of the Exige but having owned and enjoyed a Sagaris myself I can tell you that the Exige exists on an entirely different plane dynamically.

The Evora is a more stable platform but part of that is also down to the extra weight. The need for 2+2 packaging does bring some inevitable compromises with it too. My admiration for what Lotus achieved with the V6 Exige can't be overstated. Yes there are elements of the four cylinder cars that are even better but, overall, gains far outweigh the minuses. By happy accident or design it remains a brilliant package. Without it, what is there for those who prioritize pure driving pleasure, electric response and clear communication above all else? Before the Exige, your choice was a Caterham or something like an M3, there was nothing in between.

Whatever anyone thinks of the details of the Evora Sport 410 it is absolutely right that Lotus are on a mission to take weight out of all their models. It's simply being true to the brand, respecting the heritage of the brand and the philosophy of its founder. It's what everyone on every forum has been crying out for since forums were invented. Frankly it's about time. The trend for ever heavier Lotus cars has been reversed at last. I don't agree with everything that's going on at Hethel at the moment but, seriously, all credit to JMG for that. For Lotus, more than any other company, Light is most definitely Right!

 

The comparison of the Evora to the NSX cannot be highlighted enough........unfortunately.

Interesting that you mention a Sagaris in the whole context. A friend got one and he never compared that to a Exige V6 (although he had had this for a test drive). Relating to his sagaris (.....my fav. comment: does it has electronic driving devices or safety Equipment ? - yes roll bar :-) ) and his "upgraded" around 280 hp Elise, he was not so tempted by the Exige V6 but that is another Story depending on personal taste.

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21 hours ago, The Pits said:

The Exige V6 is something of a frankenstein car but many of the most interesting cars were, starting with the AC Cobra. I have no problem at all with the biggest engine in the smallest car formula, it works wonders more often than not. I personally consider every one of the Exiges to be an automotive masterpiece in its own right. Lotus invented a new genre of car which is yet to be seriously attempted, let alone bettered by anyone.

My admiration for what Lotus achieved with the V6 Exige can't be overstated. Yes there are elements of the four cylinder cars that are even better but, overall, gains far outweigh the minuses. By happy accident or design it remains a brilliant package. Without it, what is there for those who prioritize pure driving pleasure, electric response and clear communication above all else? Before the Exige, your choice was a Caterham or something like an M3, there was nothing in between.

 

I really agree with your statements about the Exige.

When I tested the whole Lotus range, before making up my mind, the Exige was the blow-me-away car. It has a mix of sheer rawness and perfect dimensions (including weight) that no modern Porsche I've ever driven can emulate (and I love Porsches).

My understanding is that the Exige is now Lotus' best seller. If that is right, it lends further credence to the fact that this car is a breed apart.

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If you had the cash I am sure he could produce every body panel for you in carbon. They would be superbly finished and a fraction of the cost of Mansory et al.

You may need to take your panels off and send them to him as the mould base, but us other Evora owners would forever be in your debt for doing that community service Jonny ;)

 

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I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

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Have you been on the sauce already, Andy??!?

I think that HKFever can probably get access to an Evora which is slightly closer to him than mine. Hopefully, a Hong Kong Lotus dealer will get an Ev410 in then he can have a look then...

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4 minutes ago, Bravo73 said:

Have you been on the sauce already, Andy??!?

Yes. I had a rather nice tomato sauce on a delicious bacon roll that I made for lunch. :) Working from home on a Monday has it's advantages, the down side is a late evening flight to London :(

Not sure how many Evora's in HK, but plenty of Exiges though.

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

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On ‎28‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 12:37, TheKevlarKid said:

Okay, I'll try and put a bit of perspective into the 410 for those struggling to see the why's and wherefores of it in the product range. 

Having owned, driven, raced and tracked (even built up myself) pretty much all of lotus's offerings over the last twenty years - including two evora's, pretty much all versions of S1/S2 elise/exige/211 and also a S3 V6 cup, I totally get the point of this new Evora Sport 410.

For me the Evora, even though it the biggest and heaviest of the bunch by a good quarter to half a tonne, has without doubt the most dynamically balanced chassis set up over any of the elise based cars they have ever made, except perhaps for the early S1 elise and it's derivatives.

Why, because I feel like the S1 elise, the Evora was designed from the outset with it's designated powerplant already chosen and the engineers have built the rest of the car up around it making them what they are in terms of chassis balance and feel ,even with the extra weight the Evora carries, it hides it weight so well.

The later S2/S3 4-pots and now the current S3 V6's have all inherited their chassis design from the earlier S1.

Unfortunately there have been compromises along the way from the early design to incorporate the larger, heavier and more powerful engines and transmissions along the way.

The latest v6's are heavy on the steering, heavy on feul, has a heavy old power plant hanging out the back that is totally noticeable over the older cars, especially on track when pushing on. They have also inherited all the known problems of the 20yr old S1 chassis design - Poor entry and exit, fixed seat shells, small cabin for larger owners (some who want one simply can't fit in even with a shoe horn). This has made the cars, for me anyway, less focussed at what it was originally design to do and also restricts certain people from owning one. They desperately need a new chassis to base these cars on that is tailored to the engines in them. 

The Evora however is still true to its original design, it's an extremely well balanced set up if just a little on the heavy side. I have personally said if they could shake 250kg off it evenly all over they would have one seriously sharp weapon in their arsenal. I was a little disappointed that the new 3-11 wasn't based on a Evora chassis as that that sort of weight reduction on it would be truely phenomenal. Okay so they have in this instance managed 70kg reduction if you go for the base spec they are offering and don't start adding stuff back in. It's a step in the right direction that keeps the design true to its core and focussed in even more imho and is exactly where they should be going with it on certan models. Want all the luxury buy the 400, want something more focussed buy the sp410.

I don't see this car taking sales away from the likes of the  V6 cup. I see it as them offering a car to those who want a V6/cup that also wants a little more space in the cabin to fit in with another larger occupant.

Given the choice right now to take a V6 cup or the Evora 410, I'd take the 410 (and I comfortably fit into an Exige...).

It will be slower around a track than a V6 cup but from a driving point of view the dynamics of the car are far superior in everyway.

I truley hope they do a Cup version and lose another 100kg's. We'll have the first 200mph lotus (they are so very close at 186mph with the 410).

 

Hi

I read the start of your post with interest as you seem to have loads of experience of Lotii. However, as soon as you say the S1 is one of the best balanced Lotii out there something has gone wrong. I love the S1, it saved Lotus and was / is a brilliant car. I drive a 100k S1 every so often (the BrookeKensington yellow peril) and although its totally knackered its still a load of fun. However, one thing the S1 never had was good balance. I remember doing a track day when it first came out with a F1 driver and we could not believe how much understeer it had. I have owned 5 Lotii and driven a load more on road and track. for me the top 2 I have driven are Evora NA and Esprit S4. You could take liberties with either of these you would not do in an S1.

All of you chassis gurus please feel free to comment on your best handling Lotus, I would be interested to hear.

Oh and I love the idea of a Evora 410, think its a great idea and as soon as I can I will be getting one. Sort of a modern day Sports 350 in my eyes.

C43

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