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Turbo vs Turbo hc

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Hi Guys,

I have been thinking since my relatively short esprit ownership of acquiring a 80s turbo but as I am a neanderthal with my knowledge of earlier cars I wondered what peoples preferences are on the turbo or turbo hc or if people think there are other models that I am overlooking.  Would love to hear the experts thoughts on;

 

-driving experience 

-availability

-ease of maintenance

-reliability (not sure I should write this one:) 

 

Or just some pointers or where a good place to explore more info, have had a good look on lew but really wanted to hear peoples thoughts maybe there is a thread that I have missed?

Thanks

Brooke

 

 

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Hi Brooke,

Not driven an earlier car, but mine has the HC engine.  Everything I've heard says the HC has a bit more mid-range torque, though I guess the gearing (citroen box on the G car, renault on the Stevens) will also be a factor.  Forged pistons on the HC, so maybe a bit more tunable if you're into that kind of thing.

I believe the HC also includes the turbo with the water cooling, which is a definite plus to my mind.

All stevens carb turbos are HC, and these seem to be more common than G turbos and certainly cheaper.  G car with HC is pretty rare beast.

Maintenance will be pretty similar, though I think the HC has redesigned cam covers to avoid oil going everywhere when checking valve clearances!

hope this helps!

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Thanks Neil really kind of you! I am not really into tuning the cars as I dont know enough to make a judgement about what should be done and what shouldn't be with out stressing other parts of the car so rather be conservative and keep it stock.  I should of explained slightly better though as I meant to ask the difference between the 2 g cars the 81-86 turbo and the 87 hc turbo.  

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Biggest improvement on the 87 cars is not the engine (which actually has a load of emissions control nonsense added) but the front suspension which at last gets rid of the dreadful Triumph Herald trunnions.

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Trunions went in 85 Andy thankfully otherwise i would have 2 cars with bloody trunions :P  High compression engine is more refined and is better quality engine by far hence the premium on 87 cars prices,plus rareity in IMO. 

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Ah yes, you are right, different change point for suspension.

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HC cars have red cam covers, adjustable rake on the seats, two slots on the top of the bonnet (as opposed to 5 square holes) and...an additional 5 BHP (215 vs 210) plus better torque.

As said previously they are pretty rare but then G cars as a whole seem to be getting pretty rare. they use to be seen as the 'Kings of the G cars' as they were the last of the run but of course it is subjective

 

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I remember at the time there were doubts cast over the claims of increased BHP of the HC engine. The forged non-melting pistons are definitely a bonus though. 

According to Lotusbits the very short inlet manifold of the LC engine is better than the HC longer one.

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Thank you guys really helpful in giving me a better understanding of this generation of Esprit, I think the driving differences to someone with my limited driving skills will be small so if I see one that I like the look of and matches the rest of my criteria I will go for it!  Fingers crossed I can get hands on a good one soon!!

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Hi Brooke

Whereabouts in Bucks are you? There's a Herts/Essex/Cambs meet on Thursday where there will probably be a couple of Turbo Esprits (LC not HC). If you want to come along you'd be more than welcome.

Chris

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Hi Jonny

if you want to know what an HC feels like, I can take you out tomorrow (from the Drift Inn). My '84 Esprit had an HC engine put in it sometime in the PO's ownership after he "melted pistons" going round Castle Combe (I think). We have at least one "proper" HC in Wessex Club Lotus.

Mind you, we won't be able to drive "progressively" in the New Forest, will we?

Kevin

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Hi Chris, thank you for the invite , really kind of you I am in Marlow, I hope I have my car back then not sure if it will be ready though, where abouts are you guys meeting as would love to see 1 first hand if I can get to you! 

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Hi Brooke

The White Horse, High Cross, Ware, Hertfordshire SG11 1AA

It's not compulsory to come in a Lotus :), but it would be nice to have a V8 come and visit.

Chris

 

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5 hours ago, Kevin Wheeler said:

Hi Jonny

if you want to know what an HC feels like, I can take you out tomorrow (from the Drift Inn). My '84 Esprit had an HC engine put in it sometime in the PO's ownership after he "melted pistons" going round Castle Combe (I think). We have at least one "proper" HC in Wessex Club Lotus.

Mind you, we won't be able to drive "progressively" in the New Forest, will we?

Kevin

Something to discuss tomorrow night! But a very kind offer. I wonder how much the HC upgrades are worth 0-40mph? :thumbup: 

Hope to see you tomorrow.

Back on topic, just to qualify my comment on the steering being wierd at parking speed. I mean it's physical really which I don't mind. The wierd part is the scrub understeer you can feel at very slow speed when using a lot of steering lock. It's wierd because it completely vanishes above 10mph.

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@Buddsy can help you with that... 


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Anti-ackerman geometry? Does it remove you of all your ackers?

I don't mind keeping my ackers the way they are now but something to discuss at Brooklands all the same.

Get the powerpoint out and do a talk on it Buds.

:thumbup:

 

 

 

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Do we know what the actual figure is for the road-level offset on the Esprit? It must be huge.

Its even possible to turn the steering when stationary quite easily on the Esprit as the offset causes the wheels to roll around an arc on the ground rather than try to swivel on a fixed point. 

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On ‎07‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 09:33, BP81 said:

Hi Guys,

I have been thinking since my relatively short esprit ownership of acquiring a 80s turbo but as I am a neanderthal with my knowledge of earlier cars I wondered what peoples preferences are on the turbo or turbo hc or if people think there are other models that I am overlooking.  Would love to hear the experts thoughts on;

 

-driving experience 

-availability

-ease of maintenance

-reliability (not sure I should write this one:) 

 

1.  I don't think there's anything to choose between them in terms of driving experience.

2.  There are lots of wet sump Giugiaro Turbo Esprits around compared to Giugiaro Turbo HCs.

3. I don't think there is anything to choose between them in terms of ease of maintenance.

4. The HCs are marginally more reliable because they have a better engine.

 

Some of the early HCs have the more common bonnet with lots of vents.  It is only the later HCs which have the two slot bonnet.  The front spoiler is also different on the HCs. 

My entirely personal opinion is that the HC interior trim is more tasteful and more durable than the earlier cars.

Given the passage of time, the performance of Giugiaro Turbo Esprits has been eclipsed by so many modern cars that the difference between the Turbo and the Turbo HC (and even the normally aspirated Esprits) is increasingly irrelevant.

Buy a mint one and keep it nice.  Doing up a rough Turbo Esprit is not yet economically viable.

If you are serious about buying a Giugiaro Esprit of any flavour, don't wait for the right one to be advertised.  Get in touch with the respected specialists and let them know you are looking.  These cars often change hands by word of mouth.  The best ones frequently don't come onto the open market.

 

Relative desirability is subjective and down to personal taste, but rarity has a lot to do with it. 

I am biased because I own a Turbo HC, but it is pretty obvious that the Essex is the holy grail.

The early dry sump cars are getting collectable, and so are the Turbo HCs.

I am not a fan of the two tone limited edition Turbo HCs.  I think they look terrible, but the interior trim is lovely.

The NA S3 is rarer than you think and they are a nice car.  The NA S3 HC was made in impossibly small numbers and deserves better recognition.  I would love one.

The run of the mill wet sump Giugiaro Turbo is the most common and easiest to find.

 

There is a massive difference in value between a scruffy G Esprit and a really nice one.  The nice one will be worth every penny of the extra money. 

 

The classic car bubble is finally starting to grab hold of the Giugiaro Esprit.  This makes a 1980s or early 1990s Stephens Turbo look comically cheap.

 

 

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Thank you Pat for sharing your thoughts and can see the logic in all you have said, in terms of desirability I know this is a little contentious depending on what you own but what is more sought after or is there no difference between the wet or the dry sump and is there any ideas on numbers left in the wild?  

The purpose of the question is to exclude first editions or special runs of either just if there were two cars available what would be more special or am I asking to split hairs with this question?

Its just there are some mild references that people have said pointing to the dry sump being slightly more special, just wondered if I misinterpreted what has been said?

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I think most fans of the G Turbos would love to own a dry sump and a Turbo HC if they could. I know I would!

Outside of the Essex cars they are definitely the most 'special' of the G Turbos. 'Sought after' is a different matter. The dry sumps are very rare with only 143 built (and that includes the Essex cars). I would (and do) argue that they are special for reasons already mentioned. I agree that the performance difference such as there is, is now almost irrelevant. Another reason why I went primarily on looks and I happen to prefer the dry sump look, inside and out. Some would probably prefer to save some money and have a wet sump which has more readily available parts - particularly those who plan to use their cars regularly and put a few miles on. Things like the dry sump pump are super rare now but many owners like myself have bought a spare should the worst happen. In that way you have a reasonable chance of getting one with the car if you could find a nice dry sump for sale.

I'm sure there are HC owners that wouldn't swap their cars for a dry sump, however good. It really comes down to personal preference. There are of course early wet sump cars like Stephen's red one that share the dry sump look and it's such a fine example that it's as special in its own right as they come. I guess if you're not obsessed with the dry sump look you wouldn't bother with a dry sump. You could argue that there is more to go wrong so they are potentially more expensive to maintain. If you are really into the look of the dry sump cars you could be in for a long wait to find one that's for sale, so probably best to see what's out there now and see what you like the look of. If you see a car that you really like I'd jump on it and be prepared to spend some money on it to make it just how you want it. If I had let my car slip through my fingers I would probably still be without a dry sump to this day so I'm glad I seized the opportunity when I had it. The previous owner is still trying to buy it back off me!

 

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Any mint condition G Turbo is a very rare beast.  If all the models were stripped of the (stick on) decals they are all virtually indistinguishable apart from anorak details.   The cars were steadily and incrementally improved for the 7 or so years they were made, so the HC is technically superior to all the earlier models.  Better engine, better front suspension, better brakes.  The earlier cars don't have any of these features and also have some impossibly rare/obsolete parts, but they may have more potential for the investor - Suppose it depends why you are considering buying one?

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I personally bought my Turbo to own and treasure with the odd drive now and again when it's roadworthy. I bought the S4s to drive so I've managed to cover both bases.......but that will no doubt come at a cost:help:

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Thanks Guys gives me an even better idea about the models.  With that info I guess it's about finding one that I love the look of has a decent history and sensible miles and snap it up not drastically different to most other car purchases I have made.  

Sensible miles is debatable for me as there aren't many like Stephens with his delivery miles on them but guess the mileage is less important than how the car has been used/looked after??

For me I will probably put circa 1,000 miles a year want it for a few meets a year and enjoying on sunny days and hopefully enjoy with my son when he old enough (he's 2 at the mo)

 

Also I know for some people money is a dirty word regarding our cars but I do hope the prices increases because people will respect the cars more ie not let them rot or that will be a less common situation and I would like to own a valuable commodity, there I've said it ?

 

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