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Maybe make a trip over to komotec headquarters and see if you can test drive theirs.  There seems to be a fair few 430's kicking about and not read any horror stories. Komo tec do an uprated clut

I had a good look at the 1900cc charger at the festival and despite the obvious increase in size it didn't feel excessively heavy at all to pick up. I estimate it to be no more than 12kg so I wouldn't

I finally had a test drive in the KT EX460 yesterday. I am always very cautious when it comes to believing power figures some tuners publish, as it is relatively easy to get a nice power chart on a Dy

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1 hour ago, Freejack said:

Mark, this is maybe a tribute to the mentality. I agree in Norbert, because we all know, compressed air will heat up, so we all have the chargecooler as a must in mind. A friend of mine, who is a specialist in ECU programming told me, that the Exige engine MUST be really stabile while running with that high air intake temperatures. Porsche f.e. is reducing the power very much earlier to prevent engine from sudden death.

All very good points Frank - but please read the information on SSC's website under "SSC Opinion".  This is the reason why the TVS1900 performs better than the TVS1320 due to the higher Air Volume.  Also note that the TVS1320 is already right at the upper limit of it's Efficiency in the standard Lotus installation.

Anyway, ofcourse it is your money and there is certainly no harm in running the Chargecooler.  I'm just saying that the TVS1900 as sold by SSC without the Chargecooler is exceptional value for money and I have not suffered from any issues of reduced power.  SSC are very conservative in operating this unit safely without risking the engine.  They did a great deal of research and development on it before releasing it to the market and have sold a large number of them to very happy customers.

I have just installed a 2Bular Exhaust system today but have not yet installed their Headers.

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2 hours ago, Aussie said:

All very good points Frank - but please read the information on SSC's website under "SSC Opinion".  This is the reason why the TVS1900 performs better than the TVS1320 due to the higher Air Volume.  Also note that the TVS1320 is already right at the upper limit of it's Efficiency in the standard Lotus installation.

Anyway, ofcourse it is your money and there is certainly no harm in running the Chargecooler.  I'm just saying that the TVS1900 as sold by SSC without the Chargecooler is exceptional value for money and I have not suffered from any issues of reduced power.  SSC are very conservative in operating this unit safely without risking the engine.  They did a great deal of research and development on it before releasing it to the market and have sold a large number of them to very happy customers.

I have just installed a 2Bular Exhaust system today but have not yet installed their Headers.

Very interested to know your thoughts on how the SSC system performs with the 2bular exhaust (manifolds too once you fit them).

Great thread :)

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Hi Marc,

re heat soak again: as you are in Australia ... did you have any heat soak issues with the standard package before?

the SSC upgrade is a very interesting package. Would love to drive it on Track to compare with the EX430 or EX460 from KT. The big advantage of KT in Germany is, is that the whole upgrade that they perform is fully road legal (compliant with German MOT requirements). Which is a significant plus for me.

I would hope that any of the other dealers in Germany actually starts to consider the SSC route ... this could be an interesting alternative... 

Cheers

Norbert

3 hours ago, Freejack said:

Mark, this is maybe a tribute to the mentality. I agree in Norbert, because we all know, compressed air will heat up, so we all have the chargecooler as a must in mind. A friend of mine, who is a specialist in ECU programming told me, that the Exige engine MUST be really stabile while running with that high air intake temperatures. Porsche f.e. is reducing the power very much earlier to prevent engine from sudden death.

Frank: very interesting - I have a good friend working for Porsche and he told me exactly the same... or basically said that the Exige engine might be (allowed to go) much closer to the limit than the Porsche engine....

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mark, would you please enquire about the compatibility with IPS cars ? I know it should work technically, but as far as I know, the software is not the same (a french tuner has released an ECU flashing, but don't offer it for IPS cars) ... maybe it has also to be more conservative in order to preserve the gearbox.

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13 minutes ago, toshers said:

Very interested to know your thoughts on how the SSC system performs with the 2bular exhaust (manifolds too once you fit them).

Great thread :)

It will probably be some time before I fit them because I need to be careful about how much money I spend on "Upgrades" to my car, to ensure that I don't upset my wife (too much) !!! B-)

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12 minutes ago, NW76 said:

Hi Marc,

re heat soak again: as you are in Australia ... did you have any heat soak issues with the standard package before?

the SSC upgrade is a very interesting package. Would love to drive it on Track to compare with the EX430 or EX460 from KT.

I personally never ran my car on the Track before I did the upgrade and I have never had a Heat soak issue on the track since it was fitted.  The whole reason why SSC developed the upgrade in the first place was because other people did have heat soak with the standard OEM configuration.

SSC are the largest Lotus Dealer here in Australia and probably around 75% of all Lotus' are sold by them here.  They also run/support a Race team.

14 minutes ago, French Frie said:

mark, would you please enquire about the compatibility with IPS cars ? I know it should work technically, but as far as I know, the software is not the same (a french tuner has released an ECU flashing, but don't offer it for IPS cars) ... maybe it has also to be more conservative in order to preserve the gearbox.

Sure, I will ask the ECU development engineer on Monday.

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1 hour ago, NW76 said:

 

Frank: very interesting - I have a good friend working for Porsche and he told me exactly the same... or basically said that the Exige engine might be (allowed to go) much closer to the limit than the Porsche engine....

Heat soak and IAT-related timing retardation are two different  issues to my way of thinking.

Nevertheless, the Lotus standard ECU mapping uses a very aggressive IAT (intake air temperature) compensation program to hopefully save the engine. For the non-intercooled models (unlike their I/C models), they only monitor IAT at the throttle body and use some sort of algorithm to estimate what the the post-blower air temps might be entering the engine.  Based on these IATs, significant timing retardation occurs with an obvious reduction in power. 

I know that for my inter-cooled 211, the factory mapping begins to retard timing  (beginning with 1 degree of retardation) when IATs (measured post-intercooler) reach a lowly 86* F (or 30*C) and max out the timing retardation at 6 degrees when IATs hit 158*F (70*C) or above. ;)

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Jack
2008 2-Eleven
2015 Exige V6 CupR
Track videos ... http://www.youtube.com/jackcup
2010 Lotus Challenge Series ULTRA Class champion
2012 Lotus CUP USA OPEN Class champion

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Has anyone in the UK fitted the SSC kit? If so what was the cost? It looks like Hofmanns can do so in the UK and it looks an interesting alternative to the hangar 111/komotec system. I hadn't actually appreciated the heat related points that SSC make on their site. I certainly experienced the power dropping at Snetterton a few weeks ago and I would prefer to run at lower pulley speeds and lower intake temps than try to work around it with a chargecooler ad it seems to me to be the lowest stress option for the engine. I've still got 18 months left from a warranty perspective but it's something i might fit at the end if that period. Looks also like the chargecooler raises the engine and thus the centre of gravity even higher and i think that is also another important point for handling on track. 

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On 19. August 2016 at 16:39, Jack said:

Heat soak and IAT-related timing retardation are two different  issues to my way of thinking.

Nevertheless, the Lotus standard ECU mapping uses a very aggressive IAT (intake air temperature) compensation program to hopefully save the engine. For the non-intercooled models (unlike their I/C models), they only monitor IAT at the throttle body and use some sort of algorithm to estimate what the the post-blower air temps might be entering the engine.  Based on these IATs, significant timing retardation occurs with an obvious reduction in power. 

I know that for my inter-cooled 211, the factory mapping begins to retard timing  (beginning with 1 degree of retardation) when IATs (measured post-intercooler) reach a lowly 86* F (or 30*C) and max out the timing retardation at 6 degrees when IATs hit 158*F (70*C) or above. ;)

Jack: do you know if the IAT is available via OBDII? 

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10 hours ago, Seriouslylotus said:

Yes it is but it's totally useless.

The exige only measure IAT before the supercharger. It doesn't measure the compressed change in the inlet manifold

Knowing this now and watching the temperatures in the sheet giving me even more the idea for a chargecooler.

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As already mentioned - we are now distributors for the SSC supercharger kit.  Very early days and I've been so busy I haven't really had much time to start beating the drum but we do have a kit in stock right now and we have done one kit already which has been running perfectly for about 4 months now including several track days.  The retail price was set to £3990+VAT for the kit and £745+VAT for the instal although the exchange rate has moved considerably since Brexit so I do need to check those prices are still achievable.

Lots of info on the SSC website about the kit.  Simple really, the alternatives spin the stock charger harder and in standard form that blower is already on the wrong end of its efficiency window so in doing so you create unreasonable levels of heat.  I have considerable experience with forced induction cars and gained plenty of experience over spinning blowers and it inevitably introduces unwanted risks such as detonation and damaged components... fitting the right blower for the intended power level is a prerequisite for a reliable upgrade.  Beyond that the kit is very well engineered and straightforward to instal.  It utilises the stock ECU with an upgraded map and has been tried and tested across many cars in Aus where the ambient temperature is much higher than here.

I've not done a back-to-back on the dyno yet but from the seat of the pants it feels like every bit a 70bhp upgrade as claimed. 

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It's very interesting the different methods of achieving power from the same engine. It appears with KT they believe the first things to change are the manifolds whereas SSC think its the supercharger. 

Given the amount of heat generated with a stock car I would assume the most sensible (although costly) thing to do would be fit the SSC and uprated manifolds together otherwise Forcing more air through engine is surely going to make manifolds generate a lot more heat..... But if it's fine in oz then must be ok.

Do hoffmans have the ability to do bespoke mapping or is that still limited to Essex autosport? 

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On 20/08/2016 at 17:46, Gashead1105 said:

I certainly experienced the power dropping at Snetterton a few weeks ago

Only one way to resolve this then, surely?

I'm not going to get drawn into a bun-fight, but don't assume that KT haven't tested a few different things before coming to the solutions that they have.

Dave

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5 minutes ago, Hangar 111 said:

Only one way to resolve this then, surely?

I'm not going to get drawn into a bun-fight, but don't assume that KT haven't tested a few different things before coming to the solutions that they have.

Dave

Let's discuss next time I bring the car in Dave. Will be pretty soon as I want to get the oil changed - and probably a baffled sump! - before Spa in November and the driver's side of the roof needs the same fix that you did to the passenger side. I also seem to have a rather squeaky clutch pedal but hopefully it's just the cable needing lubricant. 

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21 hours ago, RedViper said:

It's very interesting the different methods of achieving power from the same engine. It appears with KT they believe the first things to change are the manifolds whereas SSC think its the supercharger. 

Given the amount of heat generated with a stock car I would assume the most sensible (although costly) thing to do would be fit the SSC and uprated manifolds together otherwise Forcing more air through engine is surely going to make manifolds generate a lot more heat..... But if it's fine in oz then must be ok.

Do hoffmans have the ability to do bespoke mapping or is that still limited to Essex autosport? 

Mapping is done at SSC - although there will most likely be options down the line for doing it in house.

On the subject of what to do first... SC engines tend to respond to changes in exhaust manifolds the same way as an NA motor would and also you would expect similar % gains irrespective of what supercharger is fitted.  However, if you want significantly more HP from a forced induction motor by far and away the best bang for buck is to fit a bigger compressor.  Take my Europa for example, without any mods to cams/heads/comp ratio etc you can go from less than 200bhp to over 400bhp by simply fitting a much bigger turbo.   

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On 21 August 2016 at 09:40, Randy said:

  The retail price was set to £3990+VAT for the kit and £745+VAT for the instal although the exchange rate has moved considerably since Brexit so I do need to check those prices are still achievable.

 

Sadly I've just run the numbers on the new exchange rate and will need to move the retail price to £4290+VAT.  Fitting remains the same. 

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so it's around 6,000€, with a 20% VAT rate for the kit ... which seems competitive with the australian price (Aus$:7,969, circa 5.370€), with shipping, custom taxes and other charges added :thumbup: !

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On August 20, 2016 at 12:13, NW76 said:

Jack: do you know if the IAT is available via OBDII? 

@NW76 Norbert, yes, but as Dave pointed out, since the V6 ECU is measuring intake air temp at the throttle body, it tells you little about what the engine is seeing post compressor.  Hence my reference above to Lotus using some sort of algorithm to estimate post-SC IAT for purposes of retarding timing.

I've installed an additional temp sensor after the super-charger (at the intake manifold) to measure the IATs on my V6.   On a 90* F (~32*C) plus ambient temp day, this is what we got towards the end of a practice session on track, pre and post compressor  ;).  What I don't know for sure is the actual IAT compensation schedule Lotus utilizes for the V6.  For the 211, it is as pictured below -- may be the same for the V6S?

 

 

IMG_2526 copy.jpg

lotus-iat.jpg

Jack
2008 2-Eleven
2015 Exige V6 CupR
Track videos ... http://www.youtube.com/jackcup
2010 Lotus Challenge Series ULTRA Class champion
2012 Lotus CUP USA OPEN Class champion

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Hi Jack!

thanks a lot! Very interesting... if I it is the same as for the 211 than you should already have felt some compensation / power loss... 

I have scheduled a test drive of the EX460 for next Monday at KT... will tell afterwards what I think of it... 

By the way: will be in the US a couple of times next year for business ... I might even make a trip to NV... what do I have to do drive a couple of laps out at Spring Mountain?

Cheers

Norbert

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2 hours ago, NW76 said:

Hi Jack!

thanks a lot! Very interesting... if I it is the same as for the 211 than you should already have felt some compensation / power loss... 

I have scheduled a test drive of the EX460 for next Monday at KT... will tell afterwards what I think of it... 

By the way: will be in the US a couple of times next year for business ... I might even make a trip to NV... what do I have to do drive a couple of laps out at Spring Mountain?

Cheers

Norbert

Norbert,

My pleasure.  Look forward to reading your review of the KT EX460 package.  

Would love to see post-compressor IATs of the SSC larger super-charger kit.  I would consider the SSC package if they can re-program the ECU w/o negatively affecting the shifting program of the X-trac transmission.  The same boost as stock but generated by a slower rotating super-charger (hence less heat production) would be great for providing more consistent power on hot days.

There's no doubt that the car loses some power on HOT days …… Spring Mountain is in a high desert location, so it gets into the 105+ degree temps in mid-summer.  I've already improved the water cooling system in my Cup to handle the extra heat.

If you ever make it to Las Vegas,  SMMR (http://www.springmountainmotorsports.com/facility) is about 45 minutes away.  PM me in advance of your trip and I will see if I can get you something to drive on track.  Of course, you could plan your trip around doing a 2 or 3-day school -- given your track experience, you would probably qualify for an advanced 1-day private instruction outing.:)

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Jack
2008 2-Eleven
2015 Exige V6 CupR
Track videos ... http://www.youtube.com/jackcup
2010 Lotus Challenge Series ULTRA Class champion
2012 Lotus CUP USA OPEN Class champion

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is there already a plug in the manifold to put the temperature sender, or did you have to drill & tape a hole ? as it seems a crucial info, is there any good reason that Lotus don't bother to gather this info, rather than guestimating it and retarding advance accordingly :popo: ?  it always astonish me that Lotus make some cuts about what you're supposed to find on a sportcar, i.e. oil temperature, oil pressure, gearbox rad on some models, etc ...

When I have a look at my instruments cluster on my Exige (where the gear display even "eats" water temp !), I cry and I can't only think it won't be expensive to add a second display under the right dial and add some infos (if it can be read when sun shines B-)) !  I do know that we are accustomed to a kind of sobriety with our cars, but something like the Evora 400 display (and some dynamic changes to display oil temp/pressure) wouldn't bother me ...

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Thanks Jack! By the way: is your Cup on the Oehlins Suspension? 

I will defintely come back to you, when I am in the Las Vegas area ... but its most likely going to be spring next year ;-) 

Cheers

Norbert

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