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How to lower the onset of Secondary Injectors to 3000 RPM????


MikieP

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Cam and Derek,

 

I love this site!!!

I THINK I would really enjoy going to 1.25 BAR, esp with all the increased air flow from the larger turbo, but at what cost has become primary to me now. This project has gone so far afield from what I originally started from (simple turbo kit and head flow work) the costs have made this car almost scary to put on the road since insurance does not cover any mods at all. Perhaps that will be another topic to start up sooner than later. lol. I will have to await the shop's return from vacation next week to discuss your inputs above. From what I have been told, the current 1.0 BAR boost will reach and remain at 1.0 from around 2200 all the way up if fueling can be fixed. On the other hand, 1.25 would do how much more? Cost vs outcome. VE talk is completely beyond my level of comprehension and that will be up to Mr. Welch and shop to discuss. And, I have not been able to drive the car since around April.... ARGH!

I might be asking for data if it comes down to a stand alone and where to mount stuff in the cockpit?

Off topic - anyone know where I can find some H1 BiFocal headlamps for her?

 

MikieP

 

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Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

These are all points I still stumbled over even though I researched before undertaking the radical changes I made..  So there are some  footprints to follow..  It quickly became apparent there were a few points on the fueling becoming issues when increasing the boost,  some of these would have seemed unrelated , but dyno data gave me a focus and the subsequent mod's made provided the solutions..  Also remember this was with an Omex stand alone, so we were tweaking the maps to get the best balance.  In the 412 thread I covered the fuel delivery system mod's I did which were necessary for my boost level at 1.6 bar..  These may not be required at lower boost levels but be aware they are relevant.  

The focus of this thread is more on what can be done without going to my extremes.  The problem will always be the ECU as this controls all the tuning aspects..  The sensors for the ECU will only work within design ... end of..  ie.  The std map sensor is max 1.5 bar but fully open at 1 bar. Result anything after that is full fuel but no calibration.. .. Consequences  are,  higher boost same fuel so runs lean..  Fitting 3 bar map sensor to give accurate calibration up to 2 bar, will not work with the std ECU as it will not be calibrated or necessarily recognise the scale format.  

Chipping again is limited to what the sensors say..  The chips say they provide higher boost ,,, but how do they calibrate as the ECU and sensors as said will not cope with it.. This also brings us to question what are the chips providing... Those who have used them say they have noticed different qualities with better performance..  How is this achieved. ?  Well it seems most is by boost level which is the easiest way to increase VE. The other is to bring on advance with boost.. The catch here is the fueling again,  as without this being mapped it will run lean and caused excessive chamber temp and knock.. SO .. do the chips switch out the Knock sensor or desensitize the signals.  This lean run is what started the thread. !!

I also notice that PUK have edited their web site and no longer make any claims over 330 bhp for their chips, big reduction from the 450 bhp claims for the same chips in the past..          

These 910 engines provide the enthusiast with a fantastic platform for tuning, But you need to follow some rules.. They are not set up like the modern engines where dropping in a tuning chip will provide power.. Unfortunately the technology used on them is to dated..  I would probably go as far as to say that with no major mods just sensors , injectors and a QUALITY stand alone you could improve power delivery and performance that would put a smile on your face with the smoothness provided,,  

 As most are aware I spent five years post development testing , with interesting results and even more Changes. Even to the cost of a full new BP engine . .. With the ridiculous cost of this new spec engine incorporating many new aspects, I adopted to fit a new more upmarket ECU... I finally settled on the people who provided the ECU and harness for the Lotus LMP1,  Life Racing..  The difference in tuning ability was massive with so many features, This was essential to get the results from the new engineering side. 

So what I am trying to say is, there are many ways to upgrade the 910 but without a compatible ECU , you will continue to bump into issues..   I wish there was a simple solution ,  but if there was I did not find it even after 89 dyno runs....     In the end it all come down to suck, squeeze, bang, blow.. and how you control it..

        

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Hi Mikie,

There may well be, but to what end, As far as I am aware they are wired in as a saturation injector rather than batched. There will be no real control on them .. Even if you got them to fuel correct at lower rpm then you will still be lean further up the scale.. You need to control the fueling through the range not just pump it in .. I identified these restrictions very early on , to memory it was less than 2 weeks of studying fueling options before realizing it was a blind ally..  The standard secondaries were fitted to fix a short fall on the primaries that the std ECU could not cope with.. '' adequate fueling through the range"..  Once you go past its capabilities on primaries and secondaries you are stuck...  I am sure if Lotus could have made that ECU provide a better service they would have..

New ECU's have no trouble, having up to date technology.. They will power and control large enough primaries to facilitate your tuning needs.. then you can dump the secondaries.. This then opens the door for flow tuning on the induction system.. 

There are other things that need to be addressed with a stand alone which is why the labour costs go up if you are not able to do yourself.. so be aware of PVC spaghetti...

IMG_20150316_112632687_HDR.jpg      

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I would suggest getting it working as best you can with what you have for now. As long as you can get the timing and fuelling in the correct (i.e. safe) range, then at least you can use it. I'd still recommend going full stand alone later, so having it usable while you save is going to be a big bonus and a motivational boost.

As for standalone, there are a number of ways that you can do it. I'm currently in what I think of as phase 1. I've kept it batch fire as per the factory and am using the MS to send timing information to the factory DIS module. This required a bit of wiring (but not hideous amounts) and a couple of sensors to be replaced. It also wasn't that expensive as far as a standalone swaps go. 
This doesn't give me all the advantages of going standalone, but it gives me FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more features/flexibility than the factory ECU.

Phase 2 for me will be to ditch the DIS and go COP as well as wiring the injectors for full sequential. I'll also add in a clutch sensor (for flat shifting etc) and a flex fuel sensor to open up ethanol capability.

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Hi Dave,

I've completed (after 4 years) my engine rebuild (s4s) with a lot of upgrades.

Gas flowed and ported head and inlet plenum , high lift inlet cam from Garry Keep,  large Alunox charge cooler and high flow pump with S300 CC rad set up. AC removed. 400l/H high flow fuel pump with new larger supply and return fuel pipes (as per your advise), adjustable fuel regulator, RC primary and secondary injectors, adjustable vernier cam pulleys so timing is adjusted spot on, Alunox exhaust manifold and decatted exhaust, uprated helix clutch (from yourself), new uprated coil packs and 8mm leads. Iridium plugs, uprated T3/4 hybrid turbo with forge waste gate capsule, oil flow to head restrictor fitted (Garry Kemp), bottom end fully balanced (crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, and clutch) and on and on.......

What standalone ecu would you recommend?

Is there a kit I can buy, with all the sensors required?

I'm not looking for crazy horse power but just a reliable and smooth delivery in around the 350 hp mark.

 

Cheers 

Dave

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On 11/09/2016 at 09:02, davevr6car said:

What standalone ecu would you recommend?  (1)

Is there a kit I can buy, with all the sensors required?  (2)

I'm not looking for crazy horse power but just a reliable and smooth delivery in around the 350 hp mark.

Hi Dave,

(1)   Experience would say the best you can afford.  There are many systems available,  My choice on the Omex 710 was based on value for money and compatibility for what I was looking for , not where I was.   It served me well exposed many weaknesses in the sensor and fueling system.. It explored C.O.P along with sequential fuel and spark. All with great results..  I am sure there are others that do this but my experience is limited .. I am aware of problems a few are having with other stand alone's but feel most are to some degree self generated.. The best advice i could give is to find a quality (pref race recognised) dyno tuner in your local, then discus their preferences..  This will have a two fold effect , knowledge on the product and the ability to get the best from it..  Always research your dyno man ,  get qualified recommendations before committing.   My choice to go Life Racing on the last build was born out of results achieved at NMS with the range.. NMS were experienced in both systems with back to back data between them .. Life Racing's F88 was a step up with various add on's for my new requirements, the base unit was not that much more £'s but the final package added up.. The extra expense with refinements gave results that were immediately apparent..

(2)  Not that I am aware of .. NMS will have a list of what I fitted and may be able to put together something , but as i said previous fitting is not a five minute job.. But the results are well worth it

On the other point about 350 bhp with your spec, I can see no issues in achieving that with a stand alone.. 350 would be a nice balance , the donkey will not be over-stressed with the factory internals and the g/box will be on the safe side also.. With the correct ECU and sensors its the smoothness of that new power that will make you smile.. effortless. 

If you want more in depth technical info on either of the ECU's mentioned , try contacting NMS in the UK , on 01604 766624 , or  [email protected]

hope this helps

Dave (Changes)

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  • 1 month later...

Latest news on my SE:

My current shop called Friday and told me the following: Complete ECU sent to Mr. Welch (WC Engineering) for his help. Unit's chip apparently reconfigured to bring the secondaries on at a lower RPM and returned to shop. Shop installed and car was test driven. Much better I am told. Next step, loading up larger secondary injectors to cover a minor fuel shortcoming and I am told it should be OK to drive and drive hard. Asked for one more rolling road test to see HP, torque and other parameters to see what these several years and thousands of dollars have gotten the car. Betting not much! LOL. Will let you all know the results.

 

MikieP

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here we go. As of yesterday: Went through secondaries from stock 270, 330, 450 and now are at 550, I think. Car no longer runs lean at any throttle with one other modification. Seems like the race level turbo puts out 19 psi at 2200 rpm and up, and its waste gate can not vent enough to keep it at 1 BAR or less as required by the stock ECU, so the blow off valve was modified to act as another waste gate and opens at 12.5 psi, if I have all the bits of this story correct. I believe the S4s chip was somehow modified by Mr. Welch to bring jets open much earlier though I was not told at exactly what rpm. Seems I have full boost at 2200 rpm all the way up without leaning out now. So next goal is to add another blow off valve that will indeed do that task to keep high pressures away from the turbo when going off throttle. Does all this sound right? Told "It runs like stink now." Will now await another rolling road in about a month for numbers. If the additional blow off valve does its job might try to get to 14 lbs boost over the 12.5 just to finish her up. Anything over 14 will still shut down fueling by the S4s chipped ECU. Does all this make any sense?

 

Mikie

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  • 1 month later...

Back on the road. It runs like stink. Blew off some form of newer 911 on the way to Delaware to garage her for the winter. AEM Wide band says 14.2 to 14.8 most of the time and AEM boost says 1.05 max from around 2300 full throttle on the two or three mashes en route. VERY PLEASED, so far.

 

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  • 1 month later...

VERY good to hear you're up and running the Esprit after so many moons of troubleshoting and correcting it all, Michael.

Did you get it on to a dyno to see what, how much and what shape of curves it delivers?

Kind regards,

Jacques.

Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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Hey Jacques!

Yep. Just drove it today as temp was almost 55F here. Finally took the chance and floored it at 40 mph (in 3rd) on a road nearby and rear wheels both lost traction so I am pleased, yet immediately backing off as a bit scared of her at this point. No CAT now, and with a 3" turbo back exhaust with a flow through muffler now installed. A bit loud and some stuff seems to come out the the pipe end and heat level cooked the bumper above the tip as it was made up to be a bit too short. lol The 1st blow off valve works as it should as a waste gate (!) and the 2nd blow off valve keeps the max pressure to around 14.4 psi or so per the AEM boost gauge. The AEM wide band shows an occasional 15.4-15.8 AF but I would estimate that the lean problem may be essentially solved for now as most of the time it shows 14.3-14.8. Gas mileage sucks so far and no emission test has been done with the new setup but the windup is flawless from around 2400 thru 6500 though I have not actually floored it hard for any great distance as yet - fear of losing control remains real for me. I am now 160 miles to the treadmill test and shop so I am waiting for better weather to set up a few other bits to do at the shop and schedule a final run but shop seems to think it runs as well as, and perhaps better than the v8's they have supported. It is the first car I have ever owned that has actually forced my head back into the head rest for a bit and that is still, without full throttle. Higher temps are coming so better traction in my tire's future and fear of losing of control should go away... I still have the 1" spacer for the plenum to install (see Jon Slocum's group buy) but am not sure I should do that and upset what I currently have going on.

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Sounds good Michael! Really looking forward to hearing the final results ;)

Over here it's too Cold to drive, so the Esprit is tucked away without it's instrument binnacle, which I partially sent to the UK to be calibrated. No brakeparts as of yet . will soon be a year. Should be here in the end of the Winter, so I can just install them before Spring. Nah.. I then need to redo all bushings up front. Parts been ready for a year, so just awaiting the brake discs. I hope you have bigger brakes to stop that performance car?

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

Nobody does it better - than Lotus ;)

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I do. Revolution kits using Wilwood parts front and rear. And they stop straight now. PO had put in DOT 5 and ruined the system, bled and now much better but not powered anymore. Will keep this thread up to date when things change. snowed here today so no driving her around today. lol. Cheers for now.

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  • 2 weeks later...

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