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Esprit Turbo project car - part3 - the further continuation


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Are you sure that is original paint as I dont think they were using clear lacquer at that time.

But I dont see how you can tell what the paint looked like out of the factory by looking at a 35 year old sample of paint. The metallic surely would look less pronounced owing to age. Its got to be better to have it match new from the formula rather than 35 year old paint surely? 

Lotus would have painted the bond car originally using their paint code formula, not some special variation.

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For those of you reading this sometimes things that are written come across not as intended. I have called Dave Changes today and had a long chat. He has a vast amount of experience with these engines

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I have a sample of the A19 paint. The fuel cap is totally original. It definitely has a clear layer over base. The clear had gone milky. We have polished a tiny area to reveal a darker original metallic paint below. The edges of the cap have not faded and the polished area is darker. The A19 colour looks to be a good match indoors. In sunlight though it's too shinney because it's too metallic, so it looks lighter. If you look closely the metallic flecks in the new A19 paint are different. There are either more if them or they are larger. The number and size of the metal flecks determine how metallic it is and I think this should not be afffected by age as they are Aluminium powder flecks? A company that specialises in paint matching is producing a formulation. Hopefully this will match. the Chrysler paint code is almost identical to the A19 indoors but matches much better in sunlight as It has less metallic flecks and closely matches the original in size and density. 

If you magnified the paint you should be able to count the density and estimate the size of the Aluminium Flecks. I may try this before the final decision is made.

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What I love Fabian is that you are the only person in the world that will know, including everyone on here, I might do my wife's family tree you are both related at some point in history. 

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????????????

PS if there are any paint experts on here I would value any input? Does the A19 code break down into constituent weights of components and Aluminium pigment? Maybe the Metallic powder has changed since 1980?

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Andy makes an interesting point about the paint on the petrol cap having lacquer on it and he's probably relating to his white Turbo not having any lacquer. Most paints would not have had lacquer back in the early 80's and for reference my red Turbo has no lacquer on it. But I wouldn't expect it to have it either - I'm wondering though if a Metallic paint such as Copper Fire had lacquer, hence why this cap has it? 

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14 minutes ago, stephenwhyte said:

 I'm wondering though if Metallic paints had lacquer, hence why this cap has it? 

Ah, it looks like the service notes are misleading. The paint codes list the ones which have clear lacquer and A19 is not one of them. But I think you are right, the met colours must have had lacquer.

The ICI part number is listed as P4220311 and the data sheet for the P422 paints states they are basecoats:

https://buyat.ppg.com/Refinish_SSA/Common/ShowPdf.aspx?AppId=2&BrandId=1&LanguageId=en-GB&IntDialCode=44&PdfId=6163&ProductCode='P422'

But that raises another issue which is the basecoat with lacquer missing is going to look different to the same paint with lacquer. 

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I'm sure whatever Fabian chooses will be right as he's not one to do things wrong from what I understand, and his efforts to get things the way they should be have to be applauded. I can't wait to see it painted........but maybe do a little area first to test & be sure.:thumbup:

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I have seen the polished section of fuel cap. The outer surface is milky but shines and where it's polished is clear and shines. Neil told me it has a clear coating which has turned milky with age. Matts car had never been resprayed. Conclusion there's a coating over the base. Would a metallic base shine without a clear coat? Any thoughts or expert knowledge much appreciated. May call Lotus and ask them. 

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I really think you need to take a look at how metallic paints were applied in the 1970's, having owned a car from that period.

I certainly wouldn't base your opinion on a petrol cap. It will have aged for starters, being in sunlight. It's not conclusive of the original colour IMO.

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Taking it back to basics. The metallic is simply metal flecks in the paint. If these did not have a clear coat you would have to buff the surface to make it shine. Surley this would expose the flecks that would then degrade? I think there must be a clear coat over Metallic which is buffed to give it a shine. 

I have done some research, but stand to be corrected. I believe a paint code like A19 would be different depending on which manufacturer made it. The variance would be very small. But what about changes in the metal pigment? Maybe a match for  the original paint could be achieved using A19 and reducing the metal content to match the original? Maybe find out the metallic pigment part of the Chrysler paint,, which looks very close and combine this with the A19 code?

Hopefully this is achedemic and the experts will get a perfect match over the next few days. Will post here if they do!

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I think it's great that you are having this debate. It's all great food for thought. 

The interest in such a small detail just goes to show how much people want to support your efforts.

:) 

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It's getting there......

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I have learnt plenty from this thread,   One of which is i never knew lotus metallics or any other car maker for that matter did not use clear coat until the late 80s !   I always thought clear coat was needed for metallics.   Has got me wondering now if my 85 silverfrost paintwork has or has not got clear coat ?  If it does not then fxxk knows what i have been T cutting through on the one rare ocassion i got the polish out on her. :)

I still cant see a true metallic paint not haing clear coat,  this has boggled my mind as surely after a few polishes or dirt ingress metalic paints would of looked shxxe after a few  months out of the factory :doc:

 

A

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Here's a theory.

There are articles on the internet which state  manufacturers have become better at making the flecks of metal in the paint. They are flatter and more reflective. I believe they have expanded the paint codes since the 80s fir metallic to included a greater variance of metal particles. The only problem with A19 is in light it is more reflective which makes the colour look lighter. So it seems to me the only component of the code that needs changing is the metal content.

Think I will call the manufacturers and see if they can help. I need to find someone who was around in 1980 and has not retired! I may also try and chat with the lab that is making a colour match for me and find out how they match metallics. Maybe I could suggest my method of taking a metallic component from another paint and using this with the A19 formula. Maybe it's not that simple and I don't know enough yet. I like these challenges as it's always interesting to learn new things. 

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3 hours ago, silverfrost said:

I have learnt plenty from this thread,   One of which is i never knew lotus metallics or any other car maker for that matter did not use clear coat until the late 80s !   I always thought clear coat was needed for metallics.  

 

As I mentioned above, the ICI part number listed for A19 in the service notes is a clear over base coat paint. ICI type P422. So this code must have had a clear coat as Fabian has concluded from the fuel cap.

The service notes do list a few cellulose metallics though so it must have been possible to do metallic without clear coat. One of them is Essex Blue. These are series P421 paints and on the ICI website these are described as "Single layer metallics". ie no clear coat.

Some colours such as Essex Blue, Monaco White and Calypso Red have two or more Lotus codes for different paint systems, ie A21 for clear over base Monaco White and L25 for a single layer Monaco White.

On the metal flake issue surely the flakes would lose their shine after 35 years to some extend and the fuel cap would look dimmer than when the car came out the factory?

 

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When I get the samples I will have a microscopic look. There's a lot of factors in the spraying, curing time etc that can affect how bright the paint appears. When the samples are side by side the metallic looks very different. The original doesn't reflect anywhere near as much light as the newly sprayed A19,  even after polishing the original. The flakes are sealed so I don't think time would have such a great effect. Other new paint codes such as the Chrysler one Neil found have a very similar metallic. It looks far flatter and not as glitzy. I know where there is a paint sample that has had no UV exposure. It's under Matts Vin plate! He's already said though he's not taking it off as the car is done☹️☹️☹️☹️. Any other volunteers? 

At the end of the day if I can't sort this I will paint it A19, the same as Jos -I really like his car!

 

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43 minutes ago, Lotusfab said:

Thanks for looking up the paint codes Andy. I need to get this correct for obvious reasons!

Its always fun researching this kind of thing. Its great that someone is applying this level of detail to these cars. This kind of thing is done all the time in the world of Ferrari and not before time that the Esprit got this level of attention!

Its amazing though how the actual Bond FYEO cars from the movie is still something of a mystery as evidenced by the very long recent thread discussing them. We are still not really 100% sure whether the white car(s) were changed to copper or whether they were different cars and various people who claim to know have different stories. All interesting stuff.

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Wow @CHANGES! Thanks for some clarity. Backs up my own experience of 2 old car original metallic paint jobs. Can you confirm that 'T' cut will not really be effective on a paint that has had a 'knacker' lacquer applied? I was under the impression you can't actually cut back such a paint.

It's one of the reasons I went for a L25 2-pack paint over the A21 'Clearcoat' variety which will not necessarily have the original Monaco White look of the 1970's cars. I await the results, but if as good as on my other cars it'll be accurate, hard wearing and can be cut back with time.

Fabian, I assume you have looked at the A19 paint codes and its constituents before going off on this journey? It's the place to start. Perhaps you need to concentrate on the metallic components? These seems to be the portion of the ingredients that may have changed over time.

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I left this to the professionals, but because I can't afford it to get it wrong and interest  I have got involved. I am unsure how to break the code down. I would love ,to know how to get the components Metallic parts out if the code. The Eason being the Chrysler paint My sprayer has found has a very similar metallic appearance. This metallic content combined with the Lotus A19 pigment could be the answer?

Neil at Thompson Body Repair has a paint lab working on the problem, so hopefully a solution will be forthcoming. 

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2 hours ago, Fridge said:

Can you confirm that 'T' cut will not really be effective on a paint that has had a 'knacker' lacquer applied? I was under the impression you can't actually cut back such a paint.

 

I can confirm that. I had an Excel which was Calypso Red clear over basecoat and it had turned pink. There was absolutely nothing that could be done. It was either a case of total respray or sell it and I chose the latter. 

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Thanks @Andyww suspected as much.

I know that unless a respray is done in ultra clean, factory environments there is a danger that particles can find there way into the final paint, under the clear coat. Which is another reason to go with a paint that can be cut back, or mopped etc. (I'm not a painter).

I think from previous posts on this, with metallic paints the lacquer options are limited. I suspect that Lotus always used a clear coat on their metallic finishes from the 1970's onwards.

Metallic paint has always been a problem for post-factory resprays, and as @CHANGESstated, work was done by eye due to the vagaries of finish and ageing.

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9 hours ago, Fridge said:

 Can you confirm that 'T' cut will not really be effective on a paint that has had a 'knacker' lacquer applied? I was under the impression you can't actually cut back such a paint.

Knacker lacquer or 1k is a different animal used for quick cosmetic repairs , just that . it does not usually hold its colour quality or shine for long... looks great when first done,, but short lived... if you wax it and keep it clean it may give you service but once it subsides there is no coming back... when its old and hard you can get a bit of luster back with a fine polish like G10 but hard work for such small reward.. Also don't use 'T' Cut. on it .. 'T' cut has chemicals like ammonia in it that are designed to soften the paint surface when applied . this aids the cutting process.  Not suited to all paints.. Also NEVER leave it to dry it will etch into the paint and stain it...  the old G7 had the same chemicals in and was used to recover old paint with a mop.. You needed to mask off the area's not being worked as the odd spray particle would leave freckle stains if not wiped off quickly..  When knacker lacquer has been applied any repaint in quality paint will require it removing first or isolating with a bar coat.. 

2k is still the best paint to work your finish , very versatile and hard wearing, BUT always buy quality , there is some cheap stuff out there.. on the lacquer, again go quality, with the type best for the application . The 2080 HS will give you a superior finish with a good film thickness, ideal if you are colour flatting and polishing,  lots out there to choose from..      

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Back to basics!

front suspension has all the new bushes pressed in. The lower links are impossible without a shop press. They also took all day because the outer metal part of the original bush had sheared off in the link! Finally removed this in both links and pressed in the new bushes. The upper wishbones were easy as the bushes are far smaller. 

Currently making the brake pipes. Be careful here as the pipes are a mixture of single and double flares. You can't get this wrong. Inspect the fittings as male or female connectors change the flare requirement. The tool I bought is invaluable. Really very difficult to do this properly without the correct tools. 

Protech adjustable shocks going on the front and original brand new shocks in the rear. 

You need about three meters of pvc for the chassis holding clips. 

Pleased with how it's coming along, just need to get the paint correct!

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