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GFWilliams Liquid Yellow, Slightly Modified, Exige V6 - Page 49 - V6 Exige Projects & Upgrades - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
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GFWilliams Liquid Yellow, Slightly Modified, Exige V6

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So I have the Komo-twc manifolds and downpipe.  Very happy with the performance, although judging by @Mark030358‘s recent dyno, the 2bular manifolds offer slightly better torque and maybe power (hard to tell as he has a 380).

I have two different systems from after the downpipe, both from 2bular.

The first system is the sports cat and the valved trackday exhaust.  This system is designed to be quiet, and with the “add on” silencer tips, it recorded 90db static which is very impressive.

The second system is a decat pipe and a lightweight backbox.  This is very loud and spits some flames, although I think my old road exhaust sounded better if I’m honest.

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19 minutes ago, GFWilliams said:

So I have the Komo-twc manifolds and downpipe.  Very happy with the performance, although judging by @Mark030358‘s recent dyno, the 2bular manifolds offer slightly better torque and maybe power (hard to tell as he has a 380).

I have two different systems from after the downpipe, both from 2bular.

The first system is the sports cat and the valved trackday exhaust.  This system is designed to be quiet, and with the “add on” silencer tips, it recorded 90db static which is very impressive.

The second system is a decat pipe and a lightweight backbox.  This is very loud and spits some flames, although I think my old road exhaust sounded better if I’m honest.

I have the 2bular valved road exhaust and am contemplating getting the EPK manifolds - how loud is it with your manifolds and your road exhaust? The std exhaust is perfect really but can't help wanting a bit more popping and banging and the performance gains - but worry it might be a bit much. When you have it in touring I assume it's manageable? Thanks in advance!

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11 hours ago, GFWilliams said:

So I have the Komo-twc manifolds and downpipe.  Very happy with the performance, although judging by @Mark030358‘s recent dyno, the 2bular manifolds offer slightly better torque and maybe power (hard to tell as he has a 380).

I have two different systems from after the downpipe, both from 2bular.

The first system is the sports cat and the valved trackday exhaust.  This system is designed to be quiet, and with the “add on” silencer tips, it recorded 90db static which is very impressive.

The second system is a decat pipe and a lightweight backbox.  This is very loud and spits some flames, although I think my old road exhaust sounded better if I’m honest.

@GFWilliams, @Mattmahope

Re exhausts... I spoke at length with 2bular re which exhaust to use before I did my 460 upgrade and Jim was very honest. He said the KT manifold "may" make more power than his due to the design (stepped or something, can't quite remember exactly) but that his down pipes would for sure produce more torque (which they surely do) due to the bore size. I was going to fit a 2bular back box too, and as proven by GFW this make a few more hp.

Also as GWF stated, and to be honest I did not notice this myself from my dyno curve, the 380 makes max power at 7000 rpm, not 7200 rpm, so maybe there is more hp if you have the engine that can go to 7200 rpm. Also of note is that looking at the earlier cars, they appear to have a steeper ramp rate up to 3500 rpm than my 380. For sure this is a function of the 380 ECU. 

Just buy 2bular, you won't be disappointed.

However all that said, a fantastic upgrade as GFW will testify.

cheers

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Thanks @Mark030358, that is really helpful. My car is a 350 Sport. I do very much like the idea of running full 2bular system and no doubt it is great. However, I already have the EX370 kit fitted (ie carbon air intake plus remap) and I’d like to get to add the EX390 kit to that as well so that I get the manifolds and sports cat plus a further remap. If I went 2bular, it would be harder to get a remap done to make full use of the hardwear.

The EX390 kit doesn’t include the downpipe slightly annoyingly. KT do sell a downpipe separately which I would add to the kit. That does seem to have a larger bore than standard at least. Does anyone know exactly what diameter the KT downpipe is and how that compares to 2bular?

https://www.komo-tec.com/en/lotus-exige/mk3-toyota-v6350380/exhaust/138/y-downpipe-stainless-steel-exige-s-v6/evora?c=495

Would finish it off with track valveless backbox with 100mm Ti tips that I am currently trying to get Jim to ship me!

I think that set up should give me a nice round 400bhp with good responses and would be a sweat spot for me. I can then decide if I want to go chasing the real big power sometime in the future, but that won’t be for a while.

Thanks again - all advice/thoughts welcome!

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3 hours ago, Mark030358 said:

KT manifold "may" make more power than his due to the design (stepped or something, can't quite remember exactly) but that his down pipes would for sure produce more torque (which they surely do) due to the bore size

Power is a product of torque by engine speed - to have higher power at given engine speed you must have higher torque at that engine speed. What is described above means different profile of torque, which I doubt to be that immediately driven by small differences in the exhaust without changing the ECU mapping (torque is affected massively by ignition advance and boost, which are both defined not by the exhaust unless the ECU have to pull the ignition due to knocks). All in all I'd treat these statements of "that's why it makes few more hp at different engine speed in different car at different point in time" as a pseudoscience.

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2 hours ago, vd9 said:

Power is a product of torque by engine speed - to have higher power at given engine speed you must have higher torque at that engine speed. What is described above means different profile of torque, which I doubt to be that immediately driven by small differences in the exhaust without changing the ECU mapping (torque is affected massively by ignition advance and boost, which are both defined not by the exhaust unless the ECU have to pull the ignition due to knocks). All in all I'd treat these statements of "that's why it makes few more hp at different engine speed in different car at different point in time" as a pseudoscience.

Fair play. I can only repeat what I see of the dyno curves taken from the same machine, for same upgrade, but with different kit attached. Not trying to be a scientist, just honest, nothing more, nothing less.

And I can't recall where I said..."that's why it makes few more hp at different engine speed in different car at different point in time". I actually said said "maybe there is more hp if you have the engine that can go to 7200 rpm" 

However, before this gets into another "2bular are shite" posts no more comments from me on this subject.

 

Sorry to spoil your thread @GFWilliams

thanks

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I really did not say that anything is not good, only wanted to make sure we don't get into possible confusion over few hp difference observed between different cars and perhaps share some helpful facts on how the power and torque are related. Generally I think there is a bit of overly strong emphasis on hardware changes here and indifference towards mapping impact - while the latter is frequently absolutely critical to a safe and consistent power. Enjoy your cars gentlemen, whichever way you've made them to be. :thumbup:

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1 minute ago, vd9 said:

I really did not say that anything is not good, only wanted to make sure we don't get into possible confusion over few hp difference observed between different cars and perhaps share some helpful facts on how the power and torque are related. Generally I think there is a bit of overly strong emphasis on hardware changes here and indifference towards mapping impact - while the latter is frequently absolutely critical to a safe and consistent power. Enjoy your cars gentlemen, whichever way you've made them to be. :thumbup:

The cars are the same apart 380 vs 350 original engine and  KT manifolds vs 2bular manifolds.  The mapping is done for each car and dyno testing makes sure it's optimised for each car for the hardware it's using, so not really sure what your point is regarding mapping.  Mark has more torque, which means if his car had an extra 200rpm (to match my 7200rpm),  it would produce more peak power.  

@Mattmahope It's pretty pointless doing the exhaust system IMO unless you map to it to get the gains.  Personally, I'd just do a 410 or 430 kit from KT and know the map matches the hardware. 

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Thanks @GFWilliams, @Mark030358 And @vd9, really appreciate the constructive feedback/advice, all given and taken in good spirit I have no doubt. Certainly do not want any bashing of anyone - in fact the only “problem” seems to me that we are so spoilt with amazing options for our cars! I follow what all you guys have done pretty closely and am inspired.

Ultimately, I do agree with the sentiments re importance of mapping, which is why I want to go down the EX390 kit route. That means I get the KT hardwear plus the remap (which, when combined with my existing EX370 kit, will be an unofficial “EX400”, being effectively the EX430 kit without the modified pulley). Should work well to give me the kind of performance I want for the time being along with providing a decent base for whatever I end up doing in the future (KT460 or TVS1900 of some flavour, or nothing further at all). I don’t want to go for either the EX410 or EX430 at this stage because I don’t want to start making changes to the supercharger unless it is for one of the really big power kits, plus I want to put the difference in price towards getting my Ohlins TTX installed and set up with new Cup 2s all round.

However I do really love the 2bular backbox because of the sound, the look, and the abilty to manage the silencing to get on track. That really was the reason behind my original post, to see if there were any issues combining the two systems in that way. It sounds like there actually is (which is a little annoying) but that these are easily surmountable. Fair summary?

Thanks!

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Just now, Mattmahope said:

Thanks @GFWilliams, @Mark030358 And @vd9, really appreciate the constructive feedback/advice, all given and taken in good spirit I have no doubt. Certainly do not want any bashing of anyone - in fact the only “problem” seems to me that we are so spoilt with amazing options for our cars! I follow what all you guys have done pretty closely and am inspired.

Ultimately, I do agree with the sentiments re importance of mapping, which is why I want to go down the EX390 kit route. That means I get the KT hardwear plus the remap (which, when combined with my existing EX370 kit, will be an unofficial “EX400”, being effectively the EX430 kit without the modified pulley). Should work well to give me the kind of performance I want for the time being along with providing a decent base for whatever I end up doing in the future (KT460 or TVS1900 of some flavour, or nothing further at all). I don’t want to go for either the EX410 or EX430 at this stage because I don’t want to start making changes to the supercharger unless it is for one of the really big power kits, plus I want to put the difference in price towards getting my Ohlins TTX installed and set up with new Cup 2s all round.

However I do really love the 2bular backbox because of the sound, the look, and the abilty to manage the silencing to get on track. That really was the reason behind my original post, to see if there were any issues combining the two systems in that way. It sounds like there actually is (which is a little annoying) but that these are easily surmountable. Fair summary?

Thanks!

The issues are fixable.

In the original setup, the cats are built into the manifolds, before the downpipe. The backbox then has a pipe which joins up to the downpipe.

When you change the manifolds, the sports cat is then put after the downpipe, where the link pipe used to be before the backbox.  The connection between the sports cat and backbox is a slip on connection I believe when done by KT.  Jim uses high-quality VBand connectors, which are actually a much better solution, less prone to leaks etc.  To make a 2bular backbox fit to the KT sports cat, KT cut my old link pipe to make the VBand work.  Since then, Jim has re done the sports cat section to make sure it fits as perfectly as possible on my car.

Hopefully, that clarifies a bit. There is a solution, and now I have a sports cat or a decat pipe I can use which fit with the VBands perfectly.

In terms of noise, the road exhaust becomes a little louder with KT manifolds etc, and a slightly higher pitched tone.  My car doesn't really pop/bang much, which I guess is due to the mapping being good.  The only time I do get a "bang" from the exhaust, is with the decat pipe and when lifting off the throttle at high revs after accelerating hard.

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1 hour ago, GFWilliams said:

The cars are the same apart 380 vs 350 original engine and  KT manifolds vs 2bular manifolds

The same apart from being different models with vastly different mileage and most likely running different fuel, with further long list of minor differences

1 hour ago, GFWilliams said:

The mapping is done for each car and dyno testing makes sure it's optimised for each car for the hardware it's using, so not really sure what your point is regarding mapping

How many dyno runs was your car taken through to "optimise for each car"?

Ultimately, dynos are nowhere near +/-2-3% precision you're looking at at your graphs, especially when not done back to back. It is also not a massive problem as for sure both cars make very decent power outputs, which is probably what both of you wanted. Could these same cars make more power if mapped differently - probably yes, but you'd probably also not want it due to potential damage to the drivetrain.

One degree of ignition advance at 6,000-7,000 rpm most likely means more than difference between the pieces of metal you were discussing above, yet there is on average no appetite to consider these matters here.

Hopefully to make it clear - I have no interest in having any confrontation here and was initially only addressing the part of considerations regarding "this piece of kit may make more power and that piece of kit may make more torque" :rolleyes:

Edited by vd9

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On 12/03/2019 at 13:25, GFWilliams said:

I’ll be buying Cup 2 again, I think it’s the best tyre available for the Exige (I feel like I’ve tried most now!). I’ll be going for 225 front (to see if it fits!) and 285 rear (I never had problems with understeer on them before).

After having abused my first set of Cup 2 tyres I tried the Trofeo R and got very positively impressed. However, due to an issue with rear left tyre (loses a bit of air under track use!) I am going to change again. Did you tried the A052, and how do they compare with Cup2 and Trofeo for track use mainly.

Thanks!

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16 hours ago, Cristiano said:

After having abused my first set of Cup 2 tyres I tried the Trofeo R and got very positively impressed. However, due to an issue with rear left tyre (loses a bit of air under track use!) I am going to change again. Did you tried the A052, and how do they compare with Cup2 and Trofeo for track use mainly.

Thanks!

Trofeo R is competitor to Cup2 R and not cup2 to be fair 😉

But agree to say that Cup2 R is not available in Exige sizes  😐

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19 hours ago, rallyesax said:

 

Trofeo R is competitor to Cup2 R and not cup2 to be fair 😉

1

Maybe in terms of pricing... 

£630 for Cup 2

£1,119 for Trofeo R

I think the Trofeo would have more grip if they were the same sizes, but 10mm wider on the front and 20mm wider on the rears with Cup 2 makes them quite equal in terms of grip I think.  The Cup 2 last a LOT longer too!

I haven't tried A052, for me, the Cup 2 are the perfect road and track solution for summer (with Sotto Zero for winter).

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Small update on my Exige as this is supposed to be a project thread. 

The car is currently at Back on Track as the Nitron 3 ways have been sent back due to an unfortunate seized adjuster.  I've taken the opportunity to get them to check all 4 dampers despite only having the problem with one.  The cost wasn't that different so I thought it was worth doing for peace of mind.
On the 430 Cup, the spring rates are 550lbs/1100lbs.  I believe that once you lower the car down a bit and add some front camber to aid turn in, this means that the spring rate isn't ideal for handling (turn in is much better, but the balance is a bit out). After a (long!) chat with @Seriouslylotus, we both agreed that it would be beneficial to either get softer rear springs or harder front springs.  Softer rears would mean better road comfort, but as well as the balance of the car, I also wanted to try to reduce the dive of the car under braking. 550 to 750lbs is quite a big jump in spring rate, but I used to run a stiffer spring rate on my old Nitron 1 ways and I found that the car felt sharper and more alert on them which I hope will be the case with these new front springs.  

I also had an annoying knocking sound which was caused by some missing bolts on the front undertray which has been sorted at the same time.  BoT also discovered excessive play in the track rod ends which explains the car not feeling quite as tight on my last day at Silverstone. 

The car needs new tyres soon, I will be going for Cup 2 in 225/45/17 (hope they fit!!) and 285/30/18 (know they fit!).  In my opinion, these are the best all round tyre for the Exige.  Hoping my Caterham sells soon, then I'll get the new tyres ordered... 

IMG_8841.thumb.JPG.b414e13305a764320427a906a9911060.JPG

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24 minutes ago, GFWilliams said:

Maybe in terms of pricing... 

£630 for Cup 2

£1,119 for Trofeo R

I think the Trofeo would have more grip if they were the same sizes, but 10mm wider on the front and 20mm wider on the rears with Cup 2 makes them quite equal in terms of grip I think.  The Cup 2 last a LOT longer too!

I haven't tried A052, for me, the Cup 2 are the perfect road and track solution for summer (with Sotto Zero for winter).

Sounds good to me 😁. For once my company isn't making the most expensive product !

Ok, if it was the Cup2R then the price would probably be circa Pirelli's

 

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2 minutes ago, rallyesax said:

 

Sounds good to me 😁. For once my company isn't making the most expensive product !

Ok, if it was the Cup2R then the price would probably be circa Pirelli's

 

Cup2R for the GT2RS are about £3500 I believe.  And from what I gather, they're unlikely to last more than one trackday.  That's an expensive trackday... 

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I'd rather have many sets of cup 2s and just shred the hell out of them!

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9 hours ago, GFWilliams said:

Cup2R for the GT2RS are about £3500 I believe.  And from what I gather, they're unlikely to last more than one trackday.  That's an expensive trackday... 

Yep, expensive but bigger and tailor made. If some replacement market ones were to be made with exige sizes, price wouldn't make you sell a kidney every time. But still quite a bill for sure 😅

Edited by rallyesax

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11 hours ago, rallyesax said:

Yep, expensive but bigger and tailor made. If some replacement market ones were to be made with exige sizes, price wouldn't make you sell a kidney every time. But still quite a bill for sure 😅

At that price, the way to go is: 2 sets, 1 normal to practice and heat up, then over last session of the day you put the Cup 2R and try to make lap time over few laps only. 

This way they can last 5-6 track days.

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22 hours ago, GFWilliams said:

Small update on my Exige as this is supposed to be a project thread. 

The car is currently at Back on Track as the Nitron 3 ways have been sent back due to an unfortunate seized adjuster.  I've taken the opportunity to get them to check all 4 dampers despite only having the problem with one.  The cost wasn't that different so I thought it was worth doing for peace of mind.
On the 430 Cup, the spring rates are 550lbs/1100lbs.  I believe that once you lower the car down a bit and add some front camber to aid turn in, this means that the spring rate isn't ideal for handling (turn in is much better, but the balance is a bit out). After a (long!) chat with @Seriouslylotus, we both agreed that it would be beneficial to either get softer rear springs or harder front springs.  Softer rears would mean better road comfort, but as well as the balance of the car, I also wanted to try to reduce the dive of the car under braking. 550 to 750lbs is quite a big jump in spring rate, but I used to run a stiffer spring rate on my old Nitron 1 ways and I found that the car felt sharper and more alert on them which I hope will be the case with these new front springs.  

I also had an annoying knocking sound which was caused by some missing bolts on the front undertray which has been sorted at the same time.  BoT also discovered excessive play in the track rod ends which explains the car not feeling quite as tight on my last day at Silverstone. 

The car needs new tyres soon, I will be going for Cup 2 in 225/45/17 (hope they fit!!) and 285/30/18 (know they fit!).  In my opinion, these are the best all round tyre for the Exige.  Hoping my Caterham sells soon, then I'll get the new tyres ordered... 

IMG_8841.thumb.JPG.b414e13305a764320427a906a9911060.JPG

@GFWilliams - with your habit for drifiting with full oposite lock - stay away from the 225s ... I recently went drifting with my Exige (to improve my car control skills 😉 ) and realized that under full opposite lock when drifting at higher speeds (e.g. through a long turn) the tires scratch on the clam shell and you run the risk of damaging it.... I only run 215 with the Oehlins 1 way setup and a ride hight that is road compatible... nothing crazy... 

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2 minutes ago, Cristiano said:

At that price, the way to go is: 2 sets, 1 normal to practice and heat up, then over last session of the day you put the Cup 2R and try to make lap time over few laps only. 

This way they can last 5-6 track days.

IMO if you get to that stage in your “track day career”, it’s time to get a race car and go do some racing.

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10 hours ago, GFWilliams said:

IMO if you get to that stage in your “track day career”, it’s time to get a race car and go do some racing.

Totally agree. I said that's the way to go, not the way I would go.. ;)

3500 per set is really too much, but so far that's only for GT2 RS and GT3 RS, so I can understand..

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So while my car was in with Jez at Back on Track, I thought it was a good time to get the front uprights machined.  It made sense to do this now as the car will need to be aligned when the Dampers go back on so avoids having to do it more than once.  Hopefully I get between 1.7 and 2 degrees of front camber.   I feel for Jez a bit, having to wait for the Dampers to be rebuilt, having my car sitting there for over two weeks. He’s been good as gold with me dropping in a few times as I miss my car 😆

I also impulse bought the 380 rear spats from Elise-Shop. I think these will look good to extend the look of the side skirts, and they’re pretty cheap really.  I think they’ll need painting to get rid of the red stripe, but not a big issue.

Ps. Does anyone want to buy my @alias23 engine badge?  I have something a bit different to replace it (460 related!)

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@GFWilliams what’s holding your car up? Looks as if its balanced in the middle??

cheers

Edited by Mark030358

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