esprit350 Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) the thred title says it all really, what is a supercar, is it performance, looks, mid engine, or some thing else? is a supercar always a supercar? can it be superceded? and the big question is the Esprit a supercar? I know I am going to get lot of different answers, but it should make for some fun debate... Edited February 25, 2007 by esprit350 Quote The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Friedrich Nietzsche find me on Tripadvisor http://www.tripadvis...mbers/espritguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmxa Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 YES - Case closed! Quote Paddle Faster, I hear Banjos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 if it looks like a supercar, and goes like a supercar.....chances are it's a supercar. the esprit looks and goes like a supercar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold FFM mayevora Posted February 25, 2007 Gold FFM Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) The Esprit is everything a supercar should be. From an S1 to the last V8, all Esprits have that definative WOW factor on the eye, from any particular angle you choose to view the car from. Esprits will always have these special supercar looks. Performance will have changed greatly as these supercars have developed over the years, but all will show the unquestonable handling, especially around bends and corners that we have come to expect from a Lotus product. OK, supercar is just a word, but most car enthusiasts, given the categories of : 1 Car 2 Sports Car 3 Mussel Car 4 Supercar would tick No.4. It does make me smile sometimes while trawling AutoTrader or Top Marques mags, what the 'seller' considers a sports car to be. Just because their Rover 216 or their Fiat Punto has a painted line running nose to tail and a pair of spot lights - its in the 'for sale sports car' section of the mag. Take Porshe (if you can) For me the 911 will always fit into supercar category but 924 is definately sports car. Ie - its not he make of the car but the model. Teminology will always be in the eyes of the beholder. Good question though Howard. Edited February 25, 2007 by mayesprit Quote Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsi Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 the problem is you look at todays supercars and you cant really relate that term tothem anymore hence the new 'hypercar' label, the esprit was and still is reguarded as an example of a british supercar. the g-car has all the eccentricity and styling the countach had and creates the same sense of precense and pantomime when you drive it, people stop, take pictures, stick their greasy hands and faces all over the glass. i cant comment on the stevens cars not owning one, but it is classed as a supercar also by their very design they fall into supercar definition, not having a v12 or v10 doesnt mean that you cant call it a supercar. it is british you know, so that means slightly more refined and quirky!! oh and better fuel economy than its italian counterparts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprithk Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 extraordinary stylish look that's ahead of its time (yes, Esprit has such look) pioneer in perform-related technology (yes, Esprit's chasis design and its unique handling character makes it to fit this category, too) outstanding performance (Esprit is one of the earlier sportscars that make it to the "less than 5sec" sector) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 It does make me smile sometimes while trawling AutoTrader or Top Marques mags, what the 'seller' considers a sports car to be. Just because their Rover 216 or their Fiat Punto has a painted line running nose to tail and a pair of spot lights - its in the 'for sale sports car' section of the mag. Yep, descriptions vary. Makes me equally laugh when you see a ten year old seven series up for sale at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneshot Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Made me smile when the local paper were discussing the imminent start of production at Longbridge of the MGTF - they called it a supercar Quote Dave - 2000 Sport 350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Made me smile when the local paper were discussing the imminent start of production at Longbridge of the MGTF - they called it a supercar It's a supercar in the same way i'm a supermodel. Starting production with that kind of logic pretty much guaranteed their demise. You can't take some joke of a hairdressers car, whack on the badge of a car maker you have already shamed to ruin (think MG Montego, metro etc), slap a union jack on the back, and tell people it's new. Sure people will buy it, think rover 200 - rebadged- rover 25 - rebadged - MG, you can rebadge three times and see two companies go to the wall, and people will still go for it if you whack a flag on the back and a body coloured dash trim. Now i see where they were coming from... IF they stuck a carbon bonnet on the MGTF, wrote 'supercar' on the side and stiched union jacks into the headrests there are people that probably would buy it, i'm 100% certain of that. Maybe for the kind of customer they market for, the MGF was a supercar??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiseraven Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Good question Howard. I think Daniel has the answer. E.g. the Exige goes like a supercar, but it doesn't really look like one, so I'd call it a sports car. The model 2 (I think) MR2 looked like a supercar, but its lack of performance meant that it didn't fool anyone. Just to play devil's advocate, I'm surprised there hasn't been some debate about the early, NA g-gars. They certainly look like a supercar, they handle like a supercar, but do they really go like a supercar? Obviously by today's standards they don't, but I remember reading reviews as a kid, when they were first launched, most said that they were under powered and that the chassis deserved a better engine. For my money, it's a close call, but I'd still like one some day. What constitutes "looking like a supercar"? IMO it should look like it's moving even when it's parked. The rake of the windscreen plays a large role in this, which is why I would classify a lot of Ferraris as looking more like GT cars. If I was spending Ferrari amounts of money on a supercar, I'd want something with a lot more dramatic looks than a lot of their offerings. Alternatively, you could just ask "would a school kid put a poster of the car on their bedroom wall?" I suspect many of us on LEF had posters of Esprits when we were young. Just my .02 Phil Quote More speed, less haste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 I don't think any of the 4 cylinder cars can be called a supercar. It's touch and go with the V8s. The 350 might just creep into the lower category of supercardom due to it's extravagant wheel and spoiler combination. (The 300 just looks a bit daft - sorry) Don't get me wrong, it's a super car but it's not supercar. It can't compete with the 'blood and guts' effect of say, a Diablo (which is at a dynamic disadvantage compared with the Esprit) and neither does it have any outrageous technology in it's construction. (If you think about it, the Esprit is a fairly simple and straightforward mechanical device) They are great cars and terrific value for money on a pound v performance scale, but I think there's a touch of rose tinted specs syndrome to think of them as a supercar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsi Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 once again the very definition of the term supercar has to be date orientated also, you cannot compare an esprit4cylinder car to a lamborghini v12 diablo some 20 years older, there is no way to make a ture balance of comparisions, you have to be era specific and relate to the definition of the vehicle etc. so in its era of cars the esprit is a supercar, you cannot take that away from it. you could say the veyron is one of these hypercars, but then the mclarenf1 has the same performance in an older car yet its reffered to as a supercar not a hypercar. by todays standards the countach cant be called a supercar as it never hit to 200mph on a standard car, yet its termed as the first true supercar. a supercar is down to ones own choice but credit where credit is due, the esprit is one of britains finest supercar marks.. period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold FFM mayevora Posted February 25, 2007 Gold FFM Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 A good 10 years before owning an Esprit, I still refered to it as a supercar. Another thought. All supercars tend to be 'bigger' in size, unless its my imagination. Sports cars tend to be generally smaller in size. Elan, Elize, Europa - all sportscars (hope not offending anyone) and damn good sports cars at that. Can't think of a 4 seater Supercar. Must be a two seater, to be called Supercar - except for the obvious 3 seater. Quote Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 A 911 has four seats. A 456 has four seats. At the time the Diablo came out Lotus had just launched the Esprit SE. Similar on paper performance (until you got to stupid mph) but the Esprit was no way as super as the Diablo. (And as for the Countach being the first, shame on you! Miura. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold FFM mayevora Posted February 25, 2007 Gold FFM Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) Does anyone consider the 911 a proper four seater? Ok, its a 2+2, and my daughters guinea pig might be very comfortable on a journey longer than to the bottom of the road and back. Unless you are under 5" foot tall, the seat is always too far back to enable even the smallest of children to sit in the rear with their legs where they should be. Think most would agree with you Graham, re Miura though. Oxford English Meaning - Supercar - a high-performance sports car. Oxford English Meaning - Esprit - liveliness Edited February 25, 2007 by mayesprit Quote Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) I think the term Supercar was originally coined by an American auto journalist (Roger Huntington of Car Life magazine) referring to the performance of the then new 1964 Pontiac GTO. For the Americans at the time it was all about 0-60 in less than 6 seconds and a quarter mile ET in the 13 second range, top speed never really entered in to it (nor appearance) Of course he might have nicked the term from Gerry Andersons Supercar TV show in the early 60s. When the Turbo Esprit was released (in 1980) the benchmark was still 0-60 in less than 6 secs but it had to top 150 mph flat out.(which was hauling ass at the time) Now of course (27 years on ), its all about 0-60 in 3 secs or less and 200mph, which of course no production Esprit ever achived, but historically all the Esprits pretty much were regarded as supercars. Edited February 25, 2007 by WayneB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprit350 Posted February 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 by todays standards the countach cant be called a supercar as it never hit to 200mph on a standard car, yet its termed as the first true supercar. What about the merc sl gulwing ? I have often seen that refered to as a supercar, dont like it myself , think it is ugly, much prefer the convertible. The answers in the thread so far sort of confirm what I thought I would get, a variety of opinions all valid. Personally I dont much care whether the Esprit is a "supercar" or not , in my eyes it is a super car and I always tell people I have a sports car. Quote The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Friedrich Nietzsche find me on Tripadvisor http://www.tripadvis...mbers/espritguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmxa Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 That's cause you're too sexy for your car! It's a supercar in the same way i'm a supermodel. Quote Paddle Faster, I hear Banjos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 I always tell people I have a sports car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprit350 Posted February 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 supercar sounds a bit boastful I think, .......... Quote The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Friedrich Nietzsche find me on Tripadvisor http://www.tripadvis...mbers/espritguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gghc87 Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercar Don't really mind what it's called ...............just love it Edited February 25, 2007 by gghc87 Quote Cliff Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed. : Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arbell9 Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) On this site http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi they have a survey Given Edited February 25, 2007 by Alex --GT3-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esprit350 Posted February 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 On this site http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi re site above:- supercar of the month is the sport 350, shame they cant get the facts right... brembo brakes , dont think so, nice pic of oneshots 350 in the lotus gallery though!! Quote The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Friedrich Nietzsche find me on Tripadvisor http://www.tripadvis...mbers/espritguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Supercars have to settle certain criteria - those cars mentioned at 200mph+ (veyrons etc) are hypercars btw. Not all the boxes have to be ticked but at least 80% of it should be. We done this a while back, the criteria is based on the following with regards to their age / era : 1) Top Speed (ie no Exiges are supercars as many production cars can out run one) 2) Acceleration (At least 1/2 the general producton cars at the time...now = under 5 secs but getting closer to 4) 3) Height to length ratio (The reason why no 911 type car is a supercar...wayyyy too high, Elise wayyyy to short) 3) Engine position (ideally mid engine - all the very best cars are like this) 4) Looks (No Carton type looks in this club) 5) Exclusivity (again why no 911 is a supercar) 6) Handling 7) Possibly more cant think atm. If the 4 pot Esprit was released now it would only just make the criteria, back in it's day it definatly was. The same can be said of the noble which doesn't have an incredibly high top speed (the Esprits downer) The V8 is certainly a supercar. Quote facebook = jon.himself@hotmail.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamovaka Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Suprised this is even a discussion, the Esprit was always regarded as a supercar, every magazine article on it, every discussion. It's classified in that arena, so is the NSX BTW. and I suppose the Viper. It's not just 0-60 or QM times that make it a supercar, it's a mix of price(while at 100k it's not the most expensive, a Esprit is certainly not cheap), exclusivity(exotic appeal) and performance that mix together define the term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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