Jokke Vlo 281 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 21, 2017 Read what I said already all the time pls. If you don't believe me now I am out of arguments ! It is time to see proof it has the promised power then ! - my feeling from the beginning - trackdata - test against BMW M4 cabrio - test in magazines and now this proof. if you don't believe me by know...... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alias23 1,434 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 Folks... I must back @Jokke Vlo here... what more do you want? 1 Quote www.alias23.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NW76 499 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 Pretty clear for me as well ... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seriouslylotus 409 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, NW76 said: Pretty clear for me as well ... Sadly it's not clear for me. Different drivers of different abilities in different days with different temps etc etc etc Not saying that they do make 380hp, but it's all from different place and non is scientific. I've seen so many dyno plots from various places all saying different things. Data from an ECU is merely that, data, it cannot tell you how good the driver was or how hard he was trying. Like comparing cars to each other on track. There are so many variables it almost becomes pointless. Tyres and tyre pressure, geo settings, dampers and spring rates. Driver ability etc etc. A small increase in exit speed makes a massive difference at the end of the next straight. Heard it many times when racing, your car must have more power than mine, it's so quick in a straight line. Then we look at the data and it's corner entry/ exit speed So for me it's all a bit internet info so it must be true Yes it may be a car that doesn't perform as expected but there are sooooooooo many reasons why this may be the case, not just engine output on a given day/ dyno I am clearly in a minority so I will give up now.... Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jokke Vlo 281 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 21, 2017 No matter, I bought a 380 in expectation to get a better performing engine, and that after owning so many Exiges. I can say it is NOT. I even didn't had to have this dyna run to know this. And believe I drive this car in many DIFFERENT conditions. But ok, perhaps I am seeing ghosts I am doing quiet some races, I really don't need an engineer to know a car is performing or not. With some experience you can feel the direction of the problem too, whether it is geo, donwforce, engine...... but again: ok perhaps I see ghosts in this case then 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark030358 520 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 Looking forward to see how it goes in your hands with the 460 upgrade..... and tests after the upgrade on the same dyno. cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Waitey 7 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) Can someone test one and take into account slew rate? I bet the difference in recorded vs what Lotus say is down to something called “slew rate”. I am indebted to Paul Cronin (sometime PPC contributor) for the info on slew rates and how the Industry tests their engines. If the engine is accelerating, some of the engine power goes into driving the flywheel, crankshaft, dyno shaft, etc. This reduces the power available at the load cell on the dyno. Once the engine stops accelerating the power goes up because the losses from accelerating the engine are no longer there. In the motor industry the norm is to hold the load until everything has stabilised and then record the power. A step test in fact with about 30 seconds between steps. Due to the charger on these engines, I bet lotus accelerate the engine before adding the load, getting a higher bhp ready than a normal run up run. Edited August 21, 2017 by Waitey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cbaileyuk 57 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Seriouslylotus said: Sadly it's not clear for me. Different drivers of different abilities in different days with different temps etc etc etc Not saying that they do make 380hp, but it's all from different place and non is scientific. I've seen so many dyno plots from various places all saying different things. Data from an ECU is merely that, data, it cannot tell you how good the driver was or how hard he was trying. Like comparing cars to each other on track. There are so many variables it almost becomes pointless. Tyres and tyre pressure, geo settings, dampers and spring rates. Driver ability etc etc. A small increase in exit speed makes a massive difference at the end of the next straight. Heard it many times when racing, your car must have more power than mine, it's so quick in a straight line. Then we look at the data and it's corner entry/ exit speed So for me it's all a bit internet info so it must be true Yes it may be a car that doesn't perform as expected but there are sooooooooo many reasons why this may be the case, not just engine output on a given day/ dyno I am clearly in a minority so I will give up now.... Cheers Let's stick with the logic above... With that logic, HTF can Lotus EVER declare 350/360/380 on the backs of their cars then? They can't because you say it's so subjective to the driver/conditions/whether a flea farted in the pit lane of the test track The same applies to other brands, surely? Cars can and are dyno'd - our placcy tubs are nothing special. Edited August 21, 2017 by cbaileyuk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jokke Vlo 281 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) Don't know where to put, but the 460 upgrade is not easy neither. Seems the software of 380 and ecu is different from the 350 and 360..... to be continued Edited August 21, 2017 by Jokke Vlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vd9 148 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Seriouslylotus said: Sadly it's not clear for me. Different drivers of different abilities in different days with different temps etc etc etc Not saying that they do make 380hp, but it's all from different place and non is scientific. In this way pretty much nothing will ever be "scientific". So far what makes me wonder is how RWD 1,200kg (with driver) 380bhp car can only do 0-100/100-200 with the times pretty much on par with full-time 4WD 1,550kg (with driver) ~350bhp car? All this really sounds odd. I am looking forward to get hold of my own Sport 350 (after perhaps correctly deciding to not go with anything more than 350) and see what the real numbers are, but so far all the pieces of information paint a picture that looks rather unusual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pete 1,350 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 i see seb delanney is selling his Quote hindsight: the science that is never wrong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NW76 499 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Seriouslylotus said: Sadly it's not clear for me. Different drivers of different abilities in different days with different temps etc etc etc Not saying that they do make 380hp, but it's all from different place and non is scientific. I've seen so many dyno plots from various places all saying different things. Data from an ECU is merely that, data, it cannot tell you how good the driver was or how hard he was trying. Like comparing cars to each other on track. There are so many variables it almost becomes pointless. Tyres and tyre pressure, geo settings, dampers and spring rates. Driver ability etc etc. A small increase in exit speed makes a massive difference at the end of the next straight. Heard it many times when racing, your car must have more power than mine, it's so quick in a straight line. Then we look at the data and it's corner entry/ exit speed So for me it's all a bit internet info so it must be true Yes it may be a car that doesn't perform as expected but there are sooooooooo many reasons why this may be the case, not just engine output on a given day/ dyno I am clearly in a minority so I will give up now.... Cheers Understand your points but if you look at @Jokke Vlo track data comp you will quickly see whats up with HIS 380 ... he is a very experienced driver (racer would probably be better put) and certainly able to generate repetitive data ... for me the 380 vs 350 is more marketing a package than it is truly a large performance improvement. In particular if the rpm limit really has been decreased as we seen in @Jokke Vlo s car. If I look at his dyno chart in addition: this looks like the KT Dyno ( @Jokke Vlo correct me if I am wrong) and that one is definitely one thats setup up well. Its officially certified for the NOS VLN Race Car approval... On the positive side the V6 and 350s of most of the people I know seem to deliver their claimed hp ... unless its hot outside ;-) ... and I firmly believe my Exige EX460 does as well ,,, at least it can more than keep up with my M4 AC Schnitzer S4 on a straight line up to 200 kph... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bravo73 1,092 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, pete said: i see seb delanney is selling his He's bored of Lotus. Now wants a Ferrari. That was a very long 4 months of ownership. But lots of views of his channel, I imagine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GFWilliams 1,789 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 10 hours ago, Bravo73 said: He's bored of Lotus. Now wants a Ferrari. That was a very long 4 months of ownership. But lots of views of his channel, I imagine. Lotus just doesn't get the same kind of views that something more exotic would get unfortunately. As someone who does a lot of social media of my car, I notice this quite often and people start to get bored of the same car again and again. I don't rely on social media to make my money though so intend to keep the Lotus a long time now 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
French Frie 401 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 11 hours ago, NW76 said: On the positive side the V6 and 350s of most of the people I know seem to deliver their claimed hp ... unless its hot outside ;-) ... and I firmly believe my Exige EX460 does as well ,,, at least it can more than keep up with my M4 AC Schnitzer S4 on a straight line up to 200 kph... in the same way, I understand that unproper rolling road test (ie 2WD RR) can false the final output, because the ECU doesn't "see" the front wheels spinning, but the fact is that, on the same RR, in the same weather conditions (and Din corrected anyway), my car was making 329bhp stock, and 375bhp after the "small" KT kit. I know the RR owner, he's not selling any KT conversion, and he doesn't have any interest in cheating numbers... does it mean that the numbers would have been even bigger with 4 wheels sync RR ?? and all the Exiges that went on this rolling road did the same... my understanding is that the theorical max torque is almost always there, and it's true that if you draw a line after 6,000 rpm on stock measures, you'd find the correct output, but for some protective reasons (I guess various fuel qualities), Lotus chose to richen the mixture after those 6,000 rpm, making the torque fall, and by the way the final output (bhp are torque x rpm) ... it is very noticeable on my RR session : you can see that torque & power are the same until 3,500, then it's a bit higher until 6,000, but the real difference is after ! and I can understand Jokke, when he feels with his butt that this high end is missing ! I remember someone asking why it can produce the claimed torque without doing the claimed power, mentioning that torque and power are related... they are, indeed ! but their peaks are not produced at the same rpm ... I do think that stock ECU file "cuts" the torque at high rpms, which prevent the engine to produces the claimed high end output. and if it was only 4W rolling road related, it would be the same with tuned software (unless tuners change this 4 wheels ABS protection, but I don't think so) ... 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hangar 111 259 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, French Frie said: my car was making 329bhp stock Interesting how your power curve gives up at 5800rpm. If you continued that curve up the rev range (similar to your "after" curve) it would hit 350. Dave 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
French Frie 401 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 20 minutes ago, Hangar 111 said: Interesting how your power curve gives up at 5800rpm. If you continued that curve up the rev range (similar to your "after" curve) it would hit 350. Dave yep, that's what I was (trying to) say(ing) ! and you can see the same curve on the Vone Racing graph... BTW, Vone is a quite well respected tuner in France, and all their tunes are made on the rolling road. if you look at the bespoke topic I wrote about power graphs, trying to gather most of them, you'll see that other stock graphs are quite similar... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jokke Vlo 281 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 22, 2017 Another issue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Pits 4,241 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 22, 2017 The assumption here is that what is happening on the dyno is happening on the road. It looks like the ecu is limiting the car on the dyno, many assume this is Lotus cheating/lying/marketingBS/tricking their customers, I would question the dyno results before leaping to that conclusion. We have all covered this many times though haven't we? I drove the Sport 380 on a cold day but it felt noticeably faster than the V6 Cup in a straight line (which feels a step above a stock V6S too), back to back on the same road and same day. The reduced rev limit has kept me out of a Cup 380 but between 3,000rpm and 6,800rpm the 380 is stronger in acceleration, no doubt about that at all for me. You all forget (including Jokke!) that he came out of a KT430 expecting the 380 to beat that. Racing driver or not, I think his expectations were unreasonably high. There was talk on here at the time of the better tyres, geo, aero, reduced weight making the difference. Another 50bhp is a lot in an Exige unless of course Komotec is cheating/lying/marketingBS/tricking their customers too. Jokke's disappointed, he spent a lot of money, emotions come into it at that point so now we have the 'no faster than a 350' story. Now we're looking through data to find evidence to support that story, no-one's looking into what else might be going on. I wish it were otherwise, that Jokke was happier with his car as his views carry a lot of weight on here and elsewhere. I'm sure the disappointment is real and that's a great shame. I'd love to do a proper comparison between a stock Sport 350 and a Sport 380, I've always maintained that the 350 is a very strong package, better value for sure, but based on my own experiences so far I would expect the 380 to come out on top. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Waitey 7 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 Good to see Janspeed still can't make an exhaust. Also look at the size of the bypass line, that must be 1.75"? Thats bloody small. No wonder you can't run them in quite mode all the time! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Pits 4,241 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 22, 2017 Was tempted with the idea of the Ti pipe for the Sport 410, might give it a miss now! New one under warranty I would hope @Jokke Vlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Waitey 7 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 Jokke is allowed to have all the expectations he wants. He's compared the 380 Sport data with the data from his V6S pre KT430 and has found that the the 380 Sport is left wanting. The performance timings from the mags using both press cars and customer cars are off too (0-200kph being a long way from where lotus places the car). Along with people's anecdotal experience from road performance too esp when side by side with competitor products of similar power with much more mass. At the minute you are one of the few people saying oh it's fine against the growing consensus that there may well be an issue with over spinning and not cooling the output of a charger that is already at its volumetric efficiency. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jokke Vlo 281 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 22, 2017 I do compare data from the original V6 ! Pls note I make a difference between laptimes and engine performance. The 380 has a much better front as said and in combination with the better suspension it is faster on a lap. Again I have not one argument to say engine performance is better. But I do have and read enough to say the engine does not perform better. Yes you have earlier power in low rpm but less in higher ...... I am affraid no warranty for the titanium pipe Getting the rpm higher seems even for KT not possible by the way. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Pits 4,241 1 Vehicles Report post Posted August 22, 2017 Not saying anything of the sort @Waitey so cool jets please. 'there may well be' is no more than a best guess. All I'm saying is that it would be better not to jump to conclusions based on guesswork, cynicism and anecdotal evidence. A popular approach online for sure but not the smartest one. There's no need for this to turn into a witch hunt or for anyone to get angry with someone who offers an alternative view. I would like to challenge the claim that the 380 is no faster than a 350 because I have personal experience that says otherwise. Have you driven a Sport 380 @Waitey? If not, then I don't think you are in a position to be setting any opinions in stone just yet. 12 minutes ago, Jokke Vlo said: I am affraid no warranty for the titanium pipe This is appalling! Why not? Not covered for track use? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark030358 520 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 Oh dear, hope Jim doesn't see that exhaust.... no warranty, piss poor if you ask me. "If" all the above is true does that make the 380 Cup, at what, £94k specced out a good looking lemon? @Jokke Vlo hope Komotecmanage to get it sorted, as I was going your way in the New Year after the cars has been bedded in for a few miles. cheers Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
