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My recent Certificate of Provenance.. the good and the bad - Esprit Chat - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
Aj

My recent Certificate of Provenance.. the good and the bad

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So I finally decided to purchase a certificate from Andy Graham.. first part of the research was very positive but one part stuck out and has kinda stung me quite hard. 

So.. my Esprit was the 7th s2 of 455 UK cars to be produced which is pretty cool and it was the 1st of only 20 in its colour and trim.. but that's the problem.. For as long as I have known the car it's always been red but it turns out it was originally "Silver diamond metallic" so some moron decided to change its colour in 1984 to red! My Grandad who was worked on this car throughout the late 80s and to now has said that he had no suspicion whatsoever that it had been another colour (he suspects the previous owner had a full body off respray as it was done so well). 

So the problem is I've now got a red Esprit s2 with great history but it's the wrong colour! What irritates me even more is that the original colour silver is horrible.. If I change it back to original (which lets face it is the best idea) I know it wouldn't get anywhere near the same amount of attention or get mistaken for a Ferrari or Lambo ever again, I'd also go as far to say that I wouldn't love the car nearly as much in silver. The other option is to leave the car as it is but it for sure needs a respray anyway. I wouldn't be satisfied to spend that much money having it sprayed in the unoriginal colour either as it wouldn't feel right. 

To conclude, it's been an experience receiving the cars history for sure. The way it's presented and the facts provided by Mr Graham are really eye opening. However, I almost wish I didn't delve into its history that far as the colour part has really made me think. 

Just thought I'd share my experience, thank you. 

Alex 

 

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Maybe it's incorrect??

 

In the Porsche world, these certificates are notoriously wrong. I received on for a Targa that we had and it was listed as a convertible, among other incorrect details. I sent a note back and they listed out what I wanted.


Jon - 1984 Esprit Turbo

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I wouldn't worry too much Aj, loads of S1's have been changed to white just because it's the colour people expect an S1 to be. Personally I think they look gorgeous in red.

The value of your won't decrease just because it's not the original colour, in fact it's more likely to decrease if it's sprayed an undesirable colour, original or not.

The purists may say it must be original, but luckily for us we're not as stuck up as Ferrari owners, so until yer S2 is worth a million, don't worry what others think, it's your car, you're the lucky owner, have it how you want it, and enjoy it.

Steve

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Andy Graham has a room full of the original build books at the factory and he's very diligent. The information for the Certificates is taken from this info, it's correct. 

 


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Have you checked the colour code on the plate attached to the body? I suspect that it will confirm the certificate, but worth checking just in case somebody changed the spec part way through.

If you are an absolute purist and everything must be as it was when it left the factory then fair enough, do a complete strip and respray but if you can live with it not being exactly original then accept the more pleasant colour (or more acceptable to a greater number of people) which has been done well.

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I can understand your concerns Aj. I got my certificate and for some reason I don't have a record of the gearbox serial number that was put into my car. everything else is there, but no record exists of the box.

As the others have said, keep it red if that is what you like and keep the certificate. It, at least, will back up everything else that you know about your car.


All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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Imperial Green S2?! Can we see some pics please?

Silver is a stunning colour for an S2, second only to Championship Gold in my opinion. Not being mistaken for a Ferrari is a definite plus too! But I agree if you like it red and the paint is good keep it. If it needs a respray anyway I'd respray it silver if it was mine but you should spray it any colour you like, it's yours and it's only purpose is to make you happy!

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2 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

 

The value of your won't decrease just because it's not the original colour, in fact it's more likely to decrease if it's sprayed an undesirable colour, original or not.

The purists may say it must be original, but luckily for us we're not as stuck up as Ferrari owners, so until yer S2 is worth a million, don't worry what others think, it's your car, you're the lucky owner, have it how you want it, and enjoy it.

Steve

Doesnt even matter too much in the Ferrari world sometimes. I know someone who had one of two RHD 308s which were painted in "Rosso Metallizato" which is a metallic light red. Very rare colour. Problem is, its not very nice. It appears pink in some lighting conditions. When he tried to sell it it proved to have no interest at all. So he had it painted non-original Rosso Corsa and it sold immediately for £65,000. 

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5 minutes ago, Andyww said:

Doesnt even matter too much in the Ferrari world sometimes. I know someone who had one of two RHD 308s which were painted in "Rosso Metallizato" which is a metallic light red. Very rare colour. Problem is, its not very nice. It appears pink in some lighting conditions. When he tried to sell it it proved to have no interest at all. So he had it painted non-original Rosso Corsa and it sold immediately for £65,000. 

Dammit caught red handed (well red faced)... No offence meant Andy, I am referring to the officionados who would turn their noses up at your 365 GTB /4 for having the wrong shade of zinc plating on the indicator lens screws.

 

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Could be an error. My certificate when I contcted the factory they said my gearbox was something like 2018 but the stamp was 2013 when I questioned this as I was sure my engine gearbox had never been apart it turns out the handwritten record wasnt all that clear and the 18 was actually a 13, Was is the paint codes for both? I d say it could be a mistake in the records, As Clemo has said what does the stamp on the car say?

Either way it doesnt really matter. 7th or 447th Red or silver. Its still a nice car and the info wont change any of that

 

buddsy


 

"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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I have a red S4. If I had any sort of choice when I bought my car, a red one may not have been what I went for. The obvious sportscar references. Silver might be nice.

I remember seeing the Esprit SE in a car collectors thing which had a purple one in it. Would anyone buy a purple car?

I thought it looked great.


All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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The Silver Frost on my current Esprit has grown on me over the past 1.5 years of ownership, but I still miss the more outspoken red of the previous one.

It's your car, keep it whatever color you prefer, regardless of other opinions or originality. And just enjoy it. ;-)


I have made many mistakes in my life. Buying a multiple Lotus is not one of them.

 

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8 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

Dammit caught red handed (well red faced)... No offence meant Andy, I am referring to the officionados who would turn their noses up at your 365 GTB /4 for having the wrong shade of zinc plating on the indicator lens screws.

 

No offence taken whatsoever, you are absolutely correct when concours cars are being considered. There is no Lotus equivalent to a Ferrari concours and thats probably a good thing :) Colin Chapman would have thoroughly disapproved.

My 328 lost out last year in the concours owning to having a nylon braided breather hose instead of cotton. I won this year despite being marked down 1 point for having a fuel pipe which was painted instead of being plated. All rather silly really.

But thats just concours, which you have to be a bit mad to enter. Its very satisfying when you win though having done all the work yourself, as most concours winners are professionally prepared by owners having spent £1000s.

In fact they would not check the car colour is original for concours because they dont dive into the paperwork. The point is, on the Esprit (and likely Ferrari) the resale value is not going to be affected by the car being a more desirable colour and would likely be increased. 

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Alex, has it still got all the factory stickers in the front luggage compartment? That can be a pointer as to whether it's been re-sprayed.


Margate Exotics.

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Wow!


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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To be honest finding out the cars history is pretty good to be honest.

As Bibs said, Andy Graham will seldom be wrong as he has all the factory paperwork to hand.

Has a keen attention to detail and is a very helpfull chap.

If you like red keep it red, it obviously had a good spray job at some point if you could not see any tell tale signs.

Yes the car not been the original colour affects the selling price but if you are not selling then I see no problems. Also I would think the cost of a good quality spray job these days will cost more than you make for having the colour as it left the factory.

My s2 is going to be mettalic green, In fact not even a lotus colour, one of the members on here posted up a picture of their fiat x19 in mettalic

Green it will be, far from original but its my car and my desired colour choice, the person who buys it when i am in my box can paint it what ever colour they like lol.

Regards Dan

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A

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Alex, I am documenting the restoration of a very, very, very famous DB5 at the moment for one of my clients, he has had the colour and the trim completely changed from what the factory build was, but its his car and he can do with it as he likes, and believe me it will always be worth the money.

It's your car, enjoy it.

 

Edited by red vtec
didnt read correct
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Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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On 27 December 2016 at 00:15, Mark Blanchard said:

Either Silver

Lotus_Esprit_Silver_S2_Thum.jpg

or red, you can't go wrong:

Lotus_Esprit_S2_Rear.jpg

 

From those pics, silver looks 93x better of my eyes. :)

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