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OK, i have put this in general motoring chat as its not model specific.

I had a call from Lisalotus today - quite unhappy (Bibs - you could get one soon too :P )

Lisa had a new clutch fitted to her S4s Just before the Factory Do, by a lotus specialist.

a couple of months ago it started slipping at high revs :P so, of it went back to the specialist - a month ago.

well Lisa finally got a call to say that a Master cylinder (that was fitted a couple of months BEFORE the clutch) had the wrong length rod in it, which had been putting too much pressure on the clutch - so its NOT their fault.

Any comments on this?

Lisa is still homeless BTW, living with her parents while they try to find a new place for the ever extending animals and family. Unfortunately they only have Dial-up so she does not get on much (at-all) ;)

Lisa said Hi to everyone and if this problem is resolved, she hopes to see us at Donny

Edited by Dodgy

Лотос - для тех которые знают разницу

ENIGMA for those who are paranoid or download one :)

 

 

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Dave,

I thought Lisa's Esprit was an S4 rather than an S4s?

That said, I imagine the clutch mechanism is the same.

If she's a member of Club Lotus, Alan Morgan offers a conciliation service between dis-satisfied owners and garage proprieters. Might be worth a try.

Pass on my regards and tell her we hope she can join us at Donington.

Graham.

Wing Commander Dibble DFC<br /><br />
North Midlands Esprit Group<br /><br />
NMEG "the formidable squadron"<br /><br />
"probably the most active Esprit group in the world" Andy Betts, Castle Combe May 2007

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Dave,

I thought Lisa's Esprit was an S4 rather than an S4s?

That said, I imagine the clutch mechanism is the same.

If she's a member of Club Lotus, Alan Morgan offers a conciliation service between dis-satisfied owners and garage proprieters. Might be worth a try.

Pass on my regards and tell her we hope she can join us at Donington.

Graham.

Yeah Lisas is definitely a S4 ,i know shes been having a few slipping clutch issues.

Nick S4s

Simplest things first.

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Well (un)common sense would say if you're going to change the master cylinder, one would check the pedal length and not just guess at it.

What happens is the pressure can be locked in the line leaving the clutch slightly 'depressed' causing the slip.

Thats why the thing is buggered, and as Travis pointed out in the Techy section it's not unknown for fires to start there as a result !

I had to do this on my Elise when I changed the clutch pedal trunion and had to remove the master cylinder, you leave about 2mm of play at the end (same as the brakes) so that the cylinder can come fully back - it's not rocket science.

100% their fault, the should have set the new cylinder up correctly as per standard procedure - I wouldn't settle for any less than a new clutch, fitted correctly this time....can't get the staff these days ;)

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Dave,

PLEASE try to encourage Lisa to first get the rod adjusted. IF she has JUST STARTED to notice slippage, It is doubtful that the clutch is entirely used up. The adjustment will solve the problem, and everyone will be happy. She can then go to the Donnington event. :P

Furthermore, it sounds like the shop which installed the cylinder AND the one that installed the clutch are both @ fault to some degree. They both should have verified the pedal travel freeplay. If a mere adjustment does the trick, then it is a valuable lesson for them, and their previous reputation stays intact. Win-Win. :P

Jon is spot on w/ tech comments. The cylinder must move back to the end of its travel to allow fluid to re-enter the resevoir via the non-return valve. As soon as the pushrod moves slightly inwards, the valve closes allowing all pressure to impinge on the slave. Trouble is, the pushrod is already depressed w/ your foot off the clutch, causing the valve to be eternally closed.

Never heard of a fire starting though! Is it due to the slipping? ;)

Cheers, Lee

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They should have noticed the clutch was biting far to high when they road tested it after the job, which they either did not or ignored the result. It's no good blaming somebody else when there is a problem. If a clutch is slipping, it bites far higher than normal, especially if it is new. What a bunch of tossers.

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

- Mario Andretti

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dam , i was planning on having my cam belt done there :P

OK, OK , its a nS4 NOT a S4s ;)

Edited by Dodgy

Лотос - для тех которые знают разницу

ENIGMA for those who are paranoid or download one :)

 

 

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Yeah the push-rod could be adjusted correctly but it still doesn't cover the fact that she's lost a few 1000 miles off that clutch (bell housing is probably full of dust as well) and they haven't done the job properly, Lisa certainly shouldn't be expected to cough up full whack for that cock up.

By saying the push rod is too long is admitting liability in it's own right imo !

If they had any sense they'd stop the slopey shoulders act - take it back, adjust the pedal correctly, inspect the clutch / flywheel for damage and provide a part refund for the wear on the clutch plate as a good gesture - they KNOW they've screwed up.

If they refuse to do the right thing they should be named - nuff said.

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Ask the shop how the clutch release arm free play was adjusted when they fitted the clutch if the rod is too long ??

This must be done to ensure that 1) the release bearing is not continually under load and 2) the clutch bite point/ pre-load is correct.

They obvoiusly didn't do this when fitting the new clutch, you could have ended up with the same slipping clutch result with the correct rod if not adjusted, the long rod is just a cop-out.

They defo didn't fit the clutch correctly and should stump up to rectify the situation.

Hilly

1981 S3 4.2 V8 6 speed (The Mutant)

Mutant V8 Conversion Thread

Knowledge is power .................... apparently.

 

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I agree with Mr Hill

They obviously didnt check it after fitting, clutch should have been adjusted when fitted, if there was an issue it should have been picked up then!!!

Send the boys and break their knee caps!!!! ;)

Name and shame if they dont comply!!!!!

Simon

Chunky Lover

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I have gave lisa all the comments, and she said it definatly looks as if he is trying to Fob Her Off.

lisa said the clutch is fubar now and another new one is needed. :)

anyway, Lisa has not got back in touch with me yet, I will let you Know the outcome.

Oh! and she says is is looking forward to meeting everyone again at Donny :lol:

[edit]

just got off the phone with Lisa.

they have now said that they have adjusted the rod at the master clyinder end and the clutch doesn't slip anymore.

they said the rear adjustment was done when they fitted the clutch, but the adjustment was not right now ????

Lisa is going to pick the car back up tomorrow, and is taking Pete with her.

the 'specialist' has said , if it slips again in the next 6 months , they will have to come to some sort of arangement - lisa is not sure exactly what they mean yet, again, this will probably be cleared up tomorrow.

She is hoping to be connected to broadband next wednesday, so, look out :)

Edited by Dodgy

Лотос - для тех которые знают разницу

ENIGMA for those who are paranoid or download one :)

 

 

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They may well have carried out the adjustment.... (doubt it..) but the only way it'd move is if they didnt lock it in position... THEIR FAULT again..

I wouldnt be happy with settling for them not replacing the clutch, it may well be fine if Lisa hasn't driven it much, but it most likely has worn a good few K off the clutch life!!!

If its not slipping now it most probably wont slip in the next six months, the amount of driving we do in these cars would see very little change in the next few months.... What about next yer or the year after???

Back to the first accusation the garage made of the rod on the master cylinder being to long...

If it was too long the pedal would have been stuck half way into the foot well area as there is no real mechanical adjustments for pedal position appart from, I think it is 3 differing hole positions....

Was Lisas knee hitting her in the chin when she was changing gear?? If not its a load of tosh....

The replacement (non lotus supplied) master cylinders are supplied with a shaft too short and you have to reuse the original from you old master cylinder, this whole thing stinks of a garage just trying to rip someone off cause they co*ked up!!!!

Simon

Edited by Simon350S

Chunky Lover

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Well, minimally, she should be able to get to Donnington. :)

Somehow the agreement should be drawn up in regards to typical mileage on those particular clutches, time should not be a consideration. If it dies early, they should prioritize her car, provide her w/ a loaner (if one exists) and prorate the clutch with a discount for the inconvenience of an early failure.

I'm sure some arrangement will be properly mediated. Especially w/ their reputation on the line. She should be treated well.

Cheers, Lee

Simon,

Help me understand about the stock vs aftermarket cylinders. If the rod was too short, it couldn't cause slippage, & if the stock longer rod was installed, but can't be adjusted, how is it considered adjustable? And how could it be too long in the first place?

Confused! :lol:

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can i just say (this wont help sorry). you said lotus specialist, well theres the problem then, back street

garage proper mechanic with real tools not a problem, its only a engine, and a damn site cheaper aswell.

OUR CURRENT COLLECITON :- MODIFIED LOTUS ESPRIT, FULL VEILSIDE SUPRA (BEAST 409.3bhp), NEW ADDITON TO THE TROOP, 1996 S CLASS MERC (FULLY PIMPED OUT, DUB EDITION)

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Hello all, sorry for the absence, as dave has already said i,m on dial up here and i,m using my mums computer (bless her) which should have been put in a museum a 100 years ago :sofa: , (the computer that is not my mother) :P , any way onto clutch problem, firstly master cylinder was replaced last year, had no probs with it, ex hubby changed not garage, I only had clutch changed as car was going to have cam belt change and various other bits and bobs sorted out, clutch wasn,t slipping at time but it was biting late and reverse was getting hard to engage. Anyway I picked car up just before the lotus factory do, and it was fine, since then I,ve only done about 300 miles, about 700 all told, then clutch starts slipping, it goes back to garage and I,m told that the rod in the master cylinder was not set at the right length. What I dont understand is why was it ok to begin with and before new clutch was fitted. I suppose the main question is was it the responsibility of mechanic at garage who fitted clutch to check rod length in master cylinder, hes saying that it wasn,t, not part of schedule for fitting new clutch :P . Any way guys thanks for all your advise, I,m off to pick car up tommorrow and hopefully will be at donny. Going shopping tommorrow for new laptop and hopefully bt should be fitting broadband on weds, but i,m not gonna hold my breath this is the second attempt at connecting broadband, this place is like the dark ages, I have to travel 50 miles to get to the nearest decent shopping centre ie next, river island, animal, tesco etc, I mean what is a girl to do :thumbsup::o:o

By the way bibs cool smileys, :o:P:P

See u all next week :):):)

lady esprit drivers do it fast and furious

fahr03.gif 1st lieutenant to the Fearless red squadron

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Hello all, sorry for the absence, as dave has already said i,m on dial up here and i,m using my mums computer (bless her) which should have been put in a museum a 100 years ago :o , (the computer that is not my mother) :P , any way onto clutch problem, firstly master cylinder was replaced last year, had no probs with it, ex hubby changed not garage, I only had clutch changed as car was going to have cam belt change and various other bits and bobs sorted out, clutch wasn,t slipping at time but it was biting late and reverse was getting hard to engage. Anyway I picked car up just before the lotus factory do, and it was fine, since then I,ve only done about 300 miles, about 700 all told, then clutch starts slipping, it goes back to garage and I,m told that the rod in the master cylinder was not set at the right length. What I dont understand is why was it ok to begin with and before new clutch was fitted. I suppose the main question is was it the responsibility of mechanic at garage who fitted clutch to check rod length in master cylinder, hes saying that it wasn,t, not part of schedule for fitting new clutch :o . Any way guys thanks for all your advise, I,m off to pick car up tommorrow and hopefully will be at donny. Going shopping tommorrow for new laptop and hopefully bt should be fitting broadband on weds, but i,m not gonna hold my breath this is the second attempt at connecting broadband, this place is like the dark ages, I have to travel 50 miles to get to the nearest decent shopping centre ie next, river island, animal, tesco etc, I mean what is a girl to do :sofa::P:o

By the way bibs cool smileys, :P:P:)

See u all next week :):):P

GOOD, to see you tapping out messages again Lisa :thumbsup:

Mike

"Neglect not thy opportunities"

Martock ,Somerset. 1661

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Sadly then they are right, if you done the master cylinder (on the pedal) yourself then they can't be liable for it, even if they did do the clutch itself as once it is set it shouldn't need adjustment.

Dave gave the impression they had done all the work...so thats the garage off the hook - looks like the milage might be a saver though as it shouldn't have caused that much problem over that time.

So you're not at the Farm anymore ?

I was so looking forward to playing on the swing again :thumbsup:

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be good to see you at donny next week Lisa, rumour has it that bacon butties will have to come from the van outside..

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

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Nice to see you back Lisa. :thumbsup:

I was watching this thread and didnt want to comment untill I thought all the facts had been aired.

No, normally the master cylinder travel isnt changed (or checked )during a clutch change unless its requested or a problem is evident . It seems though thesedays that a fair few garages arent road testing vehicles properly after work is completed (maybe due to time or liability issues) Its always worth taking a car for a blast after the work is complete just to be 100% sure its working as it should, or you notice another problem that maybe the customer is unawhere of.

Good to see its sorted , and you catching it slipping so soon will have helped it no end.

Nice to know your garage isnt as inept as some would like to make out . :sofa:

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I think the problem is that the adjustment wasnt checked on the bell housing end....

Doesnt matter where the master cylinder end is adjusted to as this will just change the resting position of the pedal...?? If it was out the pedal would be in a noticably different place, but wouldnt effect the clutch adjustment...

Its the adjustment the other end thats critical and it seems this is the bit that wasnt checked... i.e. wether or not the clutch has fully re-engaged...??? If there is any pressure left on the clutch this would be the critical point of adjustment not the pedal..!!!

Or am I really missing something here....???

Please feel free to correct me but I dont think I'm wrong.................

Simon

Chunky Lover

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No Si, taint as simple as that, if the master cylinder push rod is too long the pedal bottoms out stopping the piston in the master cylinder coming to rest and releasing the check valve and hence the pressure in the system, without it you get a hydraulic lock which will keep the clutch fork end from fully releasing. The check valve is needed or you'd blow the cap off the reservoir when you push your foot in :thumbsup:

On the pedal/s you should be able to pull them towards you a small amount so the connection rods are not under pre-load. Same with the rear end, the push rod between the slave and the fork should easy to twiddle but not flapping around (not that it should considering hydraulic clutches are self adjusting by design).

BTW Lisa was this the same installing husband that told you not to fill the radiator bottle up with coolant ? :sofa:

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I think the problem is that the adjustment wasnt checked on the bell housing end....

Doesnt matter where the master cylinder end is adjusted to as this will just change the resting position of the pedal...?? If it was out the pedal would be in a noticably different place, but wouldnt effect the clutch adjustment...

Its the adjustment the other end thats critical and it seems this is the bit that wasnt checked... i.e. wether or not the clutch has fully re-engaged...??? If there is any pressure left on the clutch this would be the critical point of adjustment not the pedal..!!!

Or am I really missing something here....???

Please feel free to correct me but I dont think I'm wrong.................

Simon

Simon, there is a bolt which is an adjustable stop on the pedal box which limits the ammount the pedal can travel backwards (to control the pedal height). It seems on Lisas car , the master cylinder rod was adjusted too long , so the pedal was hard up against the stop, and the master cylinder release rod was not allowing the master cylinder piston to fully travel back in its bore, not allowing the clutch hydraulics to depressurise fully (thus keeping the clutch slave cylinder constantly pressurised to an extent) So the clutch was not allowed to fully release.

Kinda like driving with your foot resting on the clutch pedal!

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Clutch problem seems to resolved :) , although gear change is slightly notchy, but defo not slipping anymore. Garage owner a real gent, he has promised to replace said clutch if it starts slipping again within 10 k miles or within 2 yrs, cant say fairer than that eh!!!!!!!!!!!!, just hoping they havn,t adjusted it to much the other way, will see how it goes on the drive to donny. Any way thanks for all your advise, its good to be back. I,m finally on broadband :rolleyes: , so hopefully will be able to surf a little more :),

lady esprit drivers do it fast and furious

fahr03.gif 1st lieutenant to the Fearless red squadron

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