Future of Lotus

[C8RKH 6,769]

47 minutes ago, exeterjeep said:

it would have to have the full aero wing though.

I cannot get on with that wing I am afraid. We're all different and should be thankful for that but it looks like something from Halfords to me and I hate it.

I came very close to buying a GT430 but it would have cost me c.£4k for an extra carbon engine hatch WITHOUT the wing.  The rest of the car, stunning.

I would have swapped engine hatches for when I went on track (with wing) or road (without wing).

[exeterjeep 330]

2 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

but it looks like something from Halfords to me and I hate

better not tell prodrive then..

[DarrylV8 238]

@exeterjeepfull aero wing as opposed to one fitted to the rear of the GT430 😎

[exeterjeep 330]

My last evora had the gte wing, which I think looked better than the one fitted to the gt430 - but I would want a wing fitted - not for any performance reason but just that i prefer the look.  

[C8RKH 6,769]

53 minutes ago, exeterjeep said:

better not tell prodrive then..

Why not? They are big boys and girls and at the end of the day the design was probably dictated by Lotus and as it's ProDrive they would have, I am 100% sure, delivered a solid, well made, glorious product.

It just looks all a bit of an afterthought. Would look fine on an Elise or an Exige, but not on the Evora. Just looks naff. But again, this is just my opinion and not meant to upset anyone.

It's probably just me. I preferred the Countach without the silly rear wing. I loved the original ducktail on the Lancia 037 and the Esprit and prefer the Esprit GT3 shape (ducktail but no big wing) to the S4S/V8 with the various stuck on appendages. 

I will admit I do like some of the "big aero" wings that owners on here have put on their Exiges and if I had an Exige I would certainly consider one. But it looks fine to me on the Exige, not on the Evora. 

[NedaSay 860]

4 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Lotus is currently in that cash flow nightmare scenario. JMG recognised the low sales turnover and cut jobs accordingly. Geely has since been hiring like crazy but sales have barely changed. When they stop production of the current range, Evija will have to take up the slack, so I hope they have enough £2m orders to bridge the gap until Type 131 starts being delivered. JMG was expecting Lotus to be up to 4000 units p.a. by now, but we’re not even halfway there. Lotus is probably making just two or three cars per employee each year. Compare that to their competitors.

The clean break is probably the best way forward. As long as Geely can keep the lights on for a few more months, then Lotus can start to see the light at the end of the tunnel as the new models become available.

Uh No! Not at all not even close. Lotus is being propped by R&D and investment money coming from Geely. Lotus is in no obligation to generate cash at the time being beyond the parameters set by Geely. The Evija won't have to pick up the slack at all. And also at 130 cars over a 2 year production span at 2m a pop it couldn't. In case some haven't noticed, Lotus Engineering is roaring back to life and the Alpine deal is just the tip of the iceberg. Lotus Engineering has become in record time a fully functional unit of Geely R&D, despite not even being in its new digs yet, it is generating its own cashflow.

My understanding is that the overhaul required to start production of Type 131 requires that the current production chain to stop, to make way for some tooling. At the time being Elise, Exige and Evora can come down the line indifferently, but Type 131 is going to be a different animal... I heard aluminium intensive body requiring a lot more automation.  The new production hall will be fitted for this but considering they are gunning for shitload of units from the get go and other models following within 2 years of Type 131 launch. It made sense to discontinue all three cars at once... Even if i thought that Evora was supposed keep plugging for another two years, Elise and Exige production was supposed to be stopped in 2020 under JMG as the cars are not globally homologated.

as far as i understand The JMG's plan is still the backbone of  Vision 80/Lotus BP under Geely, however it goes full EV after the first new car produced while JMG was planning for 3 more ICE cars. I can't help but think that at least another sport car will come in hybrid guise though.

Geely is investing at a systemic level, leaving no stone unturned. They know pretty well where they want to take the company. Also i can't find any image of it yet but the Lotus factory in Chengdu is ready or thereabout doing preproduction runs, so theSUV can't be far now, it is still in line for a 2022 launch. 

[LotusLeftLotusRight 1,416]

130 Evijas over 2 years at £2m a pop is almost exactly the same turnover as 1800 Elise/Exige/Evoras.

65 x £2m = £130m.

1800 x £75000 (estimated average per unit) = £135m

[duncx 123]

3 hours ago, NedaSay said:

Type 131 is going to be a different animal... I heard aluminium intensive body

Blimey, that really would be different! I've thought for a while that it could be problematic for Lotus to become more 'mainstream' whilst  building car shells with fibreglass. It's ok for us enthuisiasts and perfect for small scale production but lets face it, it's not an ideal material for everyday use and bigger numbers.

[Neal H 914]

8 hours ago, jep said:

But why could they make S1 for £19k when an MX5 was circa £14k in 1998 but can't make an Elise in 2020 for £35k profitably when oppo is circa £25k? What has changed? 

Justin 

 

I think the problem was that at £19k it was never close to profitable.

[mdavies 78]

10 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

Would people buy a china made lotus? - or even a geely car badged as a lotus.

Apple phones, made wherever, maintain their Apple flavour and - as the OS - even the pips.  Presenting manufacturing as “merely knocking together the bits” – however intensely technical we know it is in practice, with machinery costing multimillions – whilst preserving “what really matters”, the brand, the image, the decisions, the magic – the core – as resident in Cupertino, is conjuring readily performed to an audience more than willing to accept it.

Ditto for Lotus?  I don’t see why not: many aspects translate from Apple fairly readily. “Brand” - of course, rooted in our “precious sporting heritage”.  Design – in Hethel, "co-located with world class Lotus Engineering”.  Dynamics - on “Lotus’s own FAA approved test circuit by our uniquely gifted and capable experts”.  Power management systems – Lotus specified and tuned. Management, key staff, image, advertising, PR  - Hethel of course.

Properly presented  - don’t ask negative questions - of course it’s British. It’s a Lotus. Who cares where the bits are knocked together.

Edited February 1 by mdavies

[Andyww 1,302]

36 minutes ago, mdavies said:

 

Properly presented  - don’t ask negative questions - of course it’s British. It’s a Lotus. Who cares where the bits are knocked together.

True and the Apple comparison is valid. Even the Chinese who buy Apple phones by the million consider them to be a US product.
A China-made Lotus would certainly be far more British than the MG cars sold all over Asia. They are branded as British and have a union flag on the sides but the only connection they have to Britain is pretty much a couple of Brummies drinking tea in an office near the old Longbridge factory.

[NedaSay 860]

4 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

130 Evijas over 2 years at £2m a pop is almost exactly the same turnover as 1800 Elise/Exige/Evoras.

65 x £2m = £130m.

1800 x £75000 (estimated average per unit) = £135m

So yup 135m for two years...  Versus according to your own math 135m a year for all current cars 1800 cars.

[NedaSay 860]

3 hours ago, duncx said:

Blimey, that really would be different! I've thought for a while that it could be problematic for Lotus to become more 'mainstream' whilst  building car shells with fibreglass. It's ok for us enthuisiasts and perfect for small scale production but lets face it, it's not an ideal material for everyday use and bigger numbers.

Back under MJK Lotus engineering did a lot of work on metal lightweighting, Using a Toyota Venza as model for weight loss... they shed weight massively. I believe some of that work continued under DB, albeit with a skeleton team, and under JMG again.  There's nothing official about the switch to an aluminium body yet though. But got very strong hint that the new car may be even more alloy heavy than Evora... that would mean the core chassis, but also front and rear subframes and yes the body:  doors, roof, and possibly other part of the skin of the thing. JMG both hinted at full aluminium body as a way to minimize weight gains.

[NedaSay 860]

Weight gains being pretty much compulsory when adding a big fat battery to the car...

[jep 1,034]

9 hours ago, Neal H said:

I think the problem was that at £19k it was never close to profitable.

Why was it £19k then in 98? There was a one year waiting list at the time. 800 target sales was blown away. Did they just get the maths wrong? And if they did, why did they not raise the price once they saw huge demand?

I have just read a period Autocar road test from 98. Price at £19k is considered cheap - so a rise to say £22k would have been easy. Surely the calcs for profitability cannot have been that far out. 

Justin 

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight 1,416]

7 hours ago, NedaSay said:

So yup 135m for two years...  Versus according to your own math 135m a year for all current cars 1800 cars.

Please re-check the math(s). The £130m is for only 65 Evija sales, I.e. ONE year, so similar to the 1800 current car output.

[C8RKH 6,769]

8 hours ago, Andyww said:

They are branded as British and have a union flag on the sides but the only connection they have to Britain is pretty much a couple of Brummies drinking tea in an office near the old Longbridge factory.

And that's why the new MG cars come with an 8 year warranty and they work, reliably. The fastest growing car brand by sales in the UK. 

Hmmm, a Lotus built in China but with Hethel style, dynamics and heritage. OK. I'm in!

[Barrykearley 7,169]

The second it becomes a China built product - I’m afraid my interest drops completely.

Buy British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

[Andyww 1,302]

Actually Vietnam is the new China for production. Expect to see export manufacturing in China decline over the next few years. It will be replaced by manufacturing for China domestic consumption though.

[NedaSay 860]

16 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

The second it becomes a China built product - I’m afraid my interest drops completely.

Buy British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

Your computer was made in Britain?

[mg4lotus 190]

31 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

The second it becomes a China built product - I’m afraid my interest drops completely.

Buy British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

What if they fit ceramic brakes? Will it then be china built? 

[mg4lotus 190]

Maybe iphone wasn't the best example to use for the analogy. Top of the range iphone £1000 - Top of the range Nokia android phone £350

[DarrylV8 238]

16 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I cannot get on with that wing I am afraid. We're all different and should be thankful for that but it looks like something from Halfords to me and I hate it.

I came very close to buying a GT430 but it would have cost me c.£4k for an extra carbon engine hatch WITHOUT the wing.  The rest of the car, stunning.

I would have swapped engine hatches for when I went on track (with wing) or road (without wing).

the CF (sport) tailgate from Lotus back in Sept 2018 cost around £2300 which we can swop over with the GT430 tailgate/wing in about 1/2hour.  Depending on where we are driving will dictate which tailgate is on car.

[C8RKH 6,769]

That's what I would have ended up doing. You sir, have taste!

[Giveitfish 62]

On 02/02/2021 at 07:19, jep said:

Why was it £19k then in 98? There was a one year waiting list at the time. 800 target sales was blown away. Did they just get the maths wrong? And if they did, why did they not raise the price once they saw huge demand?

I have just read a period Autocar road test from 98. Price at £19k is considered cheap - so a rise to say £22k would have been easy. Surely the calcs for profitability cannot have been that far out. 

Justin 

 

My old Elise S1 was over £26k as sold IIRC, that was a ‘99 car.