Future of Lotus

[ChrisJ 1,472]

Anyone else notice it doesn't have the new badge on it.

[Techyd 232]

On 27/11/2019 at 02:14, NedaSay said:

it may actually be quite light, a shortened Evora with 4 cyl would assuredly be below 1200kg

That's an interesting idea - you've only got to look at the Alpine to see how successful that could be, and potentially it might allow its price point to remain low enough. for the likes of me!  In factm if I were to replace the Evora, the only candidate that comes to mind as a serious proposition is the Alpine A110 (though I am as yet to drive one)

22 hours ago, The Pits said:

Lotus can do a lot to counter the reputation for being unreliable by endurance racing, driving an Evora around the world, increasing the factory warranty, keeping driving an Evora, a 911 and an F-Type until one of them breaks, celebrate high mileage customer cars, start a high mileage league table, reward customers who use their cars. Make something of this 'For The Drivers' thing

This is a great idea BTW!  There are countless venues around the world that could hosts a travelling roadshow.
 

For the wealthier end of the market, the GT4 championship is gaining more and more popularity - is the Evora GT4 still produced / available??

[Bravo73 1,294]

1 hour ago, Techyd said:

For the wealthier end of the market, the GT4 championship is gaining more and more popularity - is the Evora GT4 still produced / available??

 

[Simon Orrell 3]

3 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

Anyone else notice it doesn't have the new badge on it.

The new badge is just for communication emails, letter heads, advertising etc, the cars will retain the previous badge

[C8RKH 6,249]

13 hours ago, vd9 said:

but one would struggle to find much in common in between those and VW

I may be mistaken, but I think you will find that VAG have one shared platform for their SUVs across all brands. The platform is constructed in Slovakia, but final car production varies (Slovakia for Skoda, Leipzig for Porsche etc.). Again, iirc it is designated VAG Group E Type 120.  So pretty hard to deny the core DNA of the chassis in Porsche SUVs as being VAG.

In 2017 it was announced that after intense internal competition in VAG that Porsche and Audi would collaborate on future shared vehicle platforms, modules and components.

This does indeed suggest you will find a lot in common (like the Aston Martin key under Ford ownership that when you took the leather off was branded VW) between the two and that both brand/badge and engineering management is going on.

Next you'll be telling us that the switchgear in the Lamborgini was not Audi, nor the ICE etc.

A point of fact to note though is that Porsche were not sharing their engines. However this will change though with new electrified model as VAG have no confirmed a shared platform across all brands.

I see a similar thing happening with Lotus but deeper - i.e. shared platforms, modules AND engines across the Geely holdings. I even think some tech from the Evija will find its way into Volvo and other SUV's, especially the ability to power 4 wheels from four individual electric engines to do wheel vectoring for turning and drive.

 

 

 

[jep 853]

20 hours ago, The Pits said:

The Evija if successful will sit above anything McLaren makes currently

Perhaps the Lotus name ('brand') is unable to penetrate the high net worth stratosphere required to make proper money from sports and hyper cars. Here is a thought (that will never happen but here goes...….): Geely buy Williams Engineering/F1 team and the new generation of Lotus (the Evija powertrain technology is Williams designed) are badged 'Williams'.  Norfolk base becomes part of Williams, the road cars sell 'cos folk will buy a Williams which has top pedigree history (yes, I know current Formula One team is woeful but if they had money.....).

Geely announce Lotus Cars is finished as a brand and run down production...…...everyone rushes out to buy the existing stock.

The Lotus name could perhaps return when a light-weight entry level sports car reappears.  

Justin

[Arregueti 206]

I normally agree with your posts, Justin, but that one made me shake and sweat... I am on the lookout for some anti-anxiety pills.

[vd9 149]

4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

This does indeed suggest you will find a lot in common (like the Aston Martin key under Ford ownership that when you took the leather off was branded VW) between the two and that both brand/badge and engineering management is going on.

Next you'll be telling us that the switchgear in the Lamborgini was not Audi, nor the ICE etc.

Yeah, they are all rubbish those Porsche and Lamborghini. Same as Skoda, just with souped up engines. 

[NedaSay 835]

8 hours ago, Techyd said:

For the wealthier end of the market, the GT4 championship is gaining more and more popularity - is the Evora GT4 still produced / available??

So about that one, this is one of my "WTF is new management doing"  moment! The car was announced, a program was hinted at, and then a whole lot of nothing. Nothing from Hethel, nothing from Geely Group Motorsport in Sweden (really weird as they would normally oversee this) and nothing from Shanghai either!!! The car hasn't been seen testing, not a word on FIA/SRO homologation, no news on development whatsoever.

Can it be produced? I'd say yes. Is it available? I'm pretty sure somebody at Hethel is waiting to get a check while potential clients would like to see what it can do first. And despite being really fast on the hillclimb at Goodwood, this little demo won't do when it comes to getting people to sign a big check and a leasing contract on the dotted line.   

[chipp 133]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus-boss-reveals-more-details-about-new-car-to-be-built-at-hethel-1-6402471

Latest interview with Phil Popham.

 

chipp

[Nathan Pitman 223]

That’s the most insightful thing I’ve seen to date. Thanks for the link. That’s a pretty clear ‘sports cars only’ (for now). Surely with the next (affordable) car being as far away as 2021 (assuming no delays) they have to be considering some updates to the existing range?

[stephenwhyte 1,900]

As I understand it (from a reliable source) we will see some runout models next year and that will then be the end of the V6 era. The new model will then be introduced in ‘21.

Thereafter my own thinking is that we will then see a range of new Lotus sports cars built using all the Lotus design and engineering markers we hope for - I believe the future is bright.

We all have to be patient and believe in the current management team - it’s good times ahead and those with a current era Lotus.......keep it, as it’s value as a modern classic is surely almost guaranteed

[The Pits 4,408]

Got my hopes up there Nathan. Just the usual repetition about DNA, I know it’s a widely used industry cliche and I know what they’re getting at but cars have no such thing and the current range (true descendants of the Lotus lineage and philosophy) are being neglected. My take out from the article is that the next car is running late and hopes to be a Norfolk built Cayman when it eventually shows up. Please feel free to correct me if you feel I've missed something.

After 15 months we have been given very little to make us believe in the new management. The optimism here is admirable but Lotus won’t get another opportunity like this, the clock is ticking on the combustion engine, Lotus really don’t have long to fulfill their potential, for a petrol sports cars at least. Such a thing, for me, would have been a game-changing driver’s car that no-one else could have made, not a clone of something else that’s successful. The focus now appears to be on following the market to chase volume, not leading the way with radical innovation. So even if they manage to shift more cars the ambitions are now entirely commercial - a successful copycat is the aim, not to continue a proud tradition of inspired and ground breaking engineering. I still wish the company every success, always will, but I fear the chance to build ‘the Lotus they always wanted to build if only they had the money’ has been lost already. It’s just not the aim anymore when ‘volume at all costs’ is. But if the time and money being spent at Hethel is of no object then we’ll see what comes, when it comes and take it from there.

Can’t help but think the radio silence is a great way to let loyal customers lose interest and drift off to pastures green but again, time will tell. But it’s not filling me with confidence. JMG had a few howlers but by heck he gave it a go. This crowd?

I’ll shut up now as I’m depressing myself but yes very glad to have a stunning Evora in the garage which will remain glorious to drive regardless of whatever comes next and is looking ever more likely to be my ‘petrol keeper’.

[LotusLeftLotusRight 1,230]

On 27/11/2019 at 15:44, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I thought talk of the SUV had been shelved some time ago?

edit: I think I might have dreamt that. Sorry for getting your hopes up.

Having read that EDP interview, it makes me think I didn’t dream this after all. The Lotus SUV may not have been shelved completely, but it certainly seems to have been put on the back-burner, possibly indefinitely.

[C8RKH 6,249]

I'm keeping the faith. The £55-95k price range does suggest a Cayman type car and I'd expect tinpot (or should that be plastic top ) and a spider/targa/convertible version. 

A quality base car around £60k would then give a £35k uplift for carbon, suspensions and performance upgrades. 

I'll keep my mind open and my attitude positive  till we get something firm to chew on.

[KAS-118 229]

So the sum up is that it will be more practical - but he seems to be backing away from an SUV.

The Evora is already a practical 2-seater; but not a 2+2; might we be seeing a proper 2+2 coupe?

[NedaSay 835]

I'm going to side with the Pits here...  Popham seem to be delaying things even further than they were about 7 months ago during his last round of interview. So two things, they are confident A.F that they can keep the business afloat with just Evija and  no investment on the current model range... which is stupid IMO - but what do I know right. Or they are completely ignoring their dealers because they know that they will need and use Geely-Volvo dealerships and showroom worldwide, so they are ready and willing to let all the current dealers walk out the door at least in North America. 

We knew a Boxster/Cayman competitor was the next car coming  55k to 95k is pretty much exige money... Would they dare branding that car Elan? And send it again the 800 pounds gorilla. Well an Elan is certainly not an Exige and maybe they need to get away from the Exige extreme ethos in order to get more market penetration. Then again I trust a few stalwarts at Lotus who will get the car absolutely right but the new  PR, sales and marketing teams are leaving me cold right now. That interview is a sad reminder that the new PR people in charge are not quite doing their job right now... You are giving an interview, you want to talk about your cars and the future and your background is a freaking heater and a chair... WTF!!! They set up their camera and you don't think about setting a more appropriate angle!

As for the SUV. I really hope they are lying to us on that one. I hope this car is at Quinfeng' Shanghai lab and they are moving FSA on this for a a release in 2022/23, because if they get there after everybody else, It is going to be much harder to sell an EVSUV, Chinese home market advantage or not... Considering that in about 2 years time it is going to be the one market where all the premium car manufacturers are going to go at it. 

Hopefully  I do know that all the designs are pretty much set in stone ( I hope that remains the same) and commonalities are going to be the main thing with all future cars, which means a fast forward lead time. Popham said in early 2018 that it would take 4 years to develop the new platform which is an evolution/redesign/update/upgrade of the VVA platform with a couple of key attributes. That puts the potential release of the first new architecture sport car to 2022 and then they could and better go rapid fire.

For now I just really hope that they get some visiblity for the brand beyond Evija, this would mean a motorsport program with Evora as it is their only global car as they decided to not export the Elise and Exige to China! 

[C8RKH 6,249]

@KAS-118 I believe (or is that hope) that at that price point it will be a 2+0 like the Cayman/Boxster.  I think the "proper" GT car that will replace the Evora will be the 2+2 but it will be pitched higher, probably to face off to the 911 so £85-£140k?  

Don't forget the current Boxster/Cayman range starts around £45k and goes to what, £80k for the new GT4 (not including any of the lavishly priced extra's here). So surely the new car at £55k - £95k will be in the Exige/Boxster/Cayman space size wise. But I could be miles out there. I cannot see them producing an Evora sized 2+2 that much cheaper than the current model which ran (with the GT430) from £85-125k.

@NedaSay - I love reading the detail in your posts, but as you admit, a lot of it is just your view and gleaned informed snippets, so, until we get anything firmer/concrete it is all of course just supposition and crystal ball gazing. One thing Hethel does seem to be doing well right now is keeping everything under wraps and everyone guessing.

I have to admit, that going onto the Porsche website to check the Cayman prices, a new Cayman S at £55k is a good buy, a Cayman base at £45k even better for those who want something a tad sporty AND a daily driver. You can see why the cars are popular and why Porsche does so well with them.  I mean, I could have had both a Boxster as a DD, and a Cayman S as a track car, for the list price of my Evora 410 Sport!!!  However, thankfully, I hate the design / looks of the Cayman (the Boxster I would probably buy!) and have little desire to join the Porsche Owners Club unless of course it was a GT3RS!!!

[The Pits 4,408]

If the aim is to significantly increase volume then an SUV is obligatory. Given the opportunity for platform and component sharing with Geely and Volvo there's no chance they're canning that. In many ways that's the easiest car they can make plus expectations for handling and performance are so much lower. Not so hard to make the best handling SUV on the market. Just make it slightly less awful than the rubbish your competitors sell. Again though, Alfa tried exactly this with the Stelvio and I think it has sold in much fewer numbers than they were hoping.

[KAS-118 229]

23 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Again though, Alfa tried exactly this with the Stelvio and I think it has sold in much fewer numbers than they were hoping.

But as I understand it the Maserati and Alfa has underperformed in respect of sales - so it's difficult to see why Lotus would do better, especially in the near future. The EDP interview seemed to suggest that Lotus were still going to produce an SUV - but this isn't the next car to be released (but perhaps I'm misreading it).

Whilst I agree with C8RK comments in respect of price; the Evora is a pretty practical car at the moment - especially compared to the Elise and Exige. But whereas Porsche do have a car that does at least have some-useable rear seats (the 911 - and I accept its above the £60k price point); Lotus do not.

I seem to remember previously reading something about Lotus using the Evora chassis in one last hurrah, before moving to new architecture  - so if they're not going to produce a 'proper' 2+2, I'm struggling to see the point of making another 2+0?

Edited December 1, 2019 by KAS-118

[Bee 85]

So, after years upon years of people here berating the embarrassingly behind-the-times interiors, controls, ICE etc., the genuinely difficult access/egress, the lack of equipment compared to the competition, the fact that Lotus' new price points were increasingly leaving them behind, how Porsche and then the Alpine A110 were/are showing the way … you could add allsorts more to this list but let's leave it there … Lotus are apparently building a surprisingly reasonably-priced, medium-sized coupe that will be easy to live with and have a decent interior; probably go, ride and handle in the manner people expect a Lotus to; and, will likely have some cool styling cues from the Evija, pointing the way to future Lotus cars, and...

 

… to read through some comments, here, you'd think that was some kind of disaster. Am I genuinely missing something?

[Barrykearley 6,853]

I can’t wait until they unveil more cars. It’ll come I’m sure of that.

they didn’t simply rush a host of new motors out of Volvo. Instead they took some time and resolved issues they had. New volvos that are coming out now are so much better than when they took over.

keep the faith

[The Pits 4,408]

Yes @Bee you're missing that I personally have never criticised Lotus for the 'behind the times interiors, ingress/egress' nor have I ever argued that Porsche or Alpine were showing the way. Those that have been moaning about Lotus will no doubt be pleased with the new direction they are taking.

The current range are magnificent drivers cars that have been starved of oxygen by a miniscule to zero marketing budget. Yet the cars are being blamed for the poor sales, which is pretty dumb when they haven't been given a chance.

Let's say you make some really delicious lemonade in your kitchen. But you tell no-one about it. You see Sprite's impressive sales figures. You can't work out why you're not selling any so hire some industry experts to help you out. They conclude that there must be something wrong with the recipe. It was invented by your Grandfather Colin and handed down through your family the since the 1960s and is still being raved about by Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey to this day. But they say forget all that, no-one wants that old-fashioned stuff any more. Forget telling people about it and getting people to try it. Buy a machine and make it as much like Sprite as possible. Stick a Lotus badge on that, talk about DNA a lot, sit back and watch the punters flock in.

I think what's being missed here is the glaring flaw in the strategy and gaping chasm in the logic.

[scotty435 1,040]

What ever Lotus do next year or in the coming years it will never be good enough for the so called diehards, we need to grow up and realise the motoring industry is going through its biggest change or challenge that we all have experienced. For the company to survive we need to stop criticising every thing they do or do not and be patient and give them time, sure things will become clear in 2020 

[The Pits 4,408]

The diehards have been keeping the lights on at a Hethel for some years now. Without them the place would have gone the way of TVR, Marcos, Noble and others long ago.

Anyone who has bought a new Lotus in the last 5 years has done so against popular opinion, has paid considerably more for less bhp than they could have got from Nissan, has opted against the once money making Porsche GT cars, some have forgone McLaren and Ferrari ownership against the advice of many within the Lotus online community.

I think it’s time we gave the diehards a break. What have the new (highly paid) management done to date to deserve more support than the people here who have put their hands in their pockets and money where their mouths are?