Future of Lotus

[au-yt 482]

Well said. I am one of the diehards, I had options to but 2nd had a main stream exotica and opted for  a lotus and very very glad I did.

The comment on this article https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus-boss-reveals-more-details-about-new-car-to-be-built-at-hethel-1-6402471 

Obviously this guy wont be buying a LOTUS any time soon, but I wonder where this "knowable" person got his facts from

Voice of Reason • 2 days ago

What planet are the people at Lotus on? They currently make a loss of £234,000 per car sold and that’s after the accountants have played with the figures to make them a good as they can be. How many millions have they lost trying to produce an electric car, with no chance it will ever make the company a penny. I know that Lotus has the backing of the Chinese but just how long are they going to fund such huge losses, let alone recovering the 10’s of millions of losses from previous years. The most profitable thing that Lotus can do, is to demolish the factory and return the land to agriculture because they are never ever going to make a profit producing unreliable cars!

 

 

[Nathan Pitman 223]

During any period of serious investment in the future and R&D they are bound to be making huge losses. Still find it odd that there’s no sign of any marketing of the current excellent drivers cars, they could be offsetting some of those losses... that said I guess the crux of the problem is if they start a marketing push now they won’t be able to keep up with demand. 

[C8RKH 6,217]

I'm at a loss. I must be on a different planet to some.

Over the past 6 or so months I have seen a greater and greater presence on the internet, by social media including Facebook and Linkedin, from Lotus HQ. Key influencers (established car reviewers) have had good access to cars and we have seen more reviews in the last 12 months than probably the last ten years.

Viral marketing is underway. It's cheaper and arguably more effective than just posting adverts willy nilly. To say there is a dearth of marketing is just not correct.

The website is improved, but still work to do I agree.

The Evija has been designed. Built and now we have clear evidence it is not just one "show car" - prototype with limited capability - but a at least two, maybe 3 cars that are being driven at speed on the track. This car must be keeping very busy at Hethel and is a monumental achievement. How many great NEW cars can a manufacturer like Lotus work on at once? Given the value this car has to be a success. If it is not, Lotus will be dead from a luxury credibility point of view. So again, imagine how many people are engaged on this in Hethel.

I think a sharp intake of breath is needed. Give them some time to get the job done, and get the job done right!

Marvel in the delight of what is currently the best range of analogue, driver focused cars from anyone.

Lotus is at a tipping point. It could go either way. So, as true supporters let's give Lotus our support. Christ knows she has enough detractors without so called fans adding fuel to the fire with their assumptions that could in fact, be hugely wide of the mark.

 

[The Pits 4,408]

Bizarre to be arguing in favour of blind faith over keeping a sharp eye on what the new senior management are up to. But ridiculous to demand that anyone else do likewise. I’m sure we would have some more insightful discussions if some could find a way to be less offended by criticism of the new Lotus management.

I don’t see what the new suits at have done to deserve infallibility status and be above scrutiny? We’ve been here before with Bahar and blind faith didn’t help much then. What we have now seems to be similar, minus the vision and passion!

I’ve always taken the view that if Lotus can survive to fight another day that’s worth the ignominy of Swiss Beatz, gurning youtubers, questionable special editions or mehketing. I’m starting to think that surviving at all costs is a case of careful what you wish for.

Hope for me lies with the brilliant, true Lotus lifers that are still there. I know some of the things that went on behind the scenes to save Lotus from previous administrations and there are some true unsung heroes up there. It’s just a shame they aren’t in charge!

Having money to spend has always been a double edged sword for companies like Lotus. Money buys expensive experts, committees, complex processes and all kinds of things that don't actually make the cars better to drive or nicer to look at. A wise man once told me that a big company with lots of money would never have signed off the Exige. Therein lies the conundrum. I think in years to come we will appreciated what Lotus achieved during its more austere years all the more.

[C8RKH 6,217]

I'm not arguing blind faith, I'm just saying that in the absence of anything concrete, why not wait and see before we condemn anyone or anything.

By all means go around and sow your seeds of doom and gloom and how the cars of the future will not be this or that. I hope, as I am sure you do, that you are wrong. But, and it is a very big BUT, if a wholesale revolution is being planned and executed at Hethel then that will take a lot of planning and a lot of fcous, and therefore time, to get right.

I remember the Bahaha days, and one minute everyone was look, ooh, arhhh, hooray and then the next it was ooh, arse, nay!  Same with JMG. Everyone loved how he was getting hold of costs, had a plan, was putting Lotus on the map, then everyone was glad to see the back of him and his stupid repainted specials that came out, seemingly, every week.

It seems that time and time again, it does not matter what Lotus management do, but if their name is not Colin or Mike then they have no idea.

With me, as I have said above several times, it is not about blind faith. It is about giving the new operation time to sort itself out. Do things properly. Provide a platform for growth. If you think that's a quick fix then you are deluded. The difference between a Chinese Business Man and a Western Business Man is time. They are prepared to invest in it. We are not. 

[The Pits 4,408]

I guess who would want the job? Might explain why the Lotus lifers have kept their heads down. Trying to drive volume from a low volume sports car maker is a formidable challenge, made even harder by current industry trends. Most here have given the new suits the benefit of the doubt and have shown plenty of patience. But given Evija was a JMG initiative, I think a number of us were expecting a bit more from Lotus as 2019 draws to a close.

[C8RKH 6,217]

I think all of us in the corporate workplace expect more from new suits They seldom deliver... Usually a lot of hype and hoorahs but little substance to back it up with.

Me, I just look in my garage at my little old Evora Sport 410 and my Type 116 and thank all those at Hethel for the wonderful job they've done. I hope to buy another new Lotus in the not too distant future, as long as they make a car I want to drive and own.  Otherwise, like a lot of people, I'll take my wallet elsewhere and that will likely be too either an old Lotus or something like an Ultima or a McLaren. I've always liked the 12c (more so than the later cars, I suppose I view the 12c like the Evora S1, the pick of the range) . This one would look great parked next to my 410 Sport:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201910123239103?advertising-location=at_cars&price-from=500&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&make=MCLAREN&model=12C&sort=relevance&postcode=ph149st&page=1.

[jep 842]

17 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I've always liked the 12c (more so than the later cars, I suppose I view the 12c like the Evora S1, the pick of the range) . This one would look great parked next to my 410 Sport:

12c is a bargain and will most likely still get cheaper. Perfect compliment to Evora NA in my view. Evora NA cheap to run (I await a clutch bill but averaged over my so far 13.000 miles, I can weather that), 12c not so cheap to run but gives so much back in performance, ride, steering, major event feel on every outing and sheer class. The running costs will put a lot off but for me, 12c fits better than a 410 or 430, as the suspension on those, for me, is disappointing and not dashboard adjustable as on a 12c. And the Spyder is just great, as you can have the back window down with the roof up for aural exhaust heaven.

McLaren is the reason I don't think Lotus can follow that business model. I cannot see Lotus competing with the McLaren showroom appeal, so best avoid that clash. I think Geely are most likely doing the right thing, aiming as I understand for more user-friendly GT cars. For me, price will be the key to success and as Geely have managed to make Volvo SUV appealing against a tidal wave of opposition, I have hope.

Good luck to all at Hethel and to Geely.

Justin

[C8RKH 6,217]

I think the sweet spot for Lotus will be in the £50k to £150k price bracket. McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini are above £150k and Lotus will take years to get there in my very humble opinion. Ferrari are coming down to the circa £150/160k price point withe Roma, but think they and the others will struggle to fight for under £150k.

So that puts Lotus squarely in Porsche territory and in my mind they do need better and higher quality packaging to compete but if they do make cars that are truly "for the driver" then they could win a lot of sales from Porsche on driving dynamics in that price range, but only, if the quality and packaging is right.

If it is right, I could see myself keeping my 410 Sport (I actually think the suspension on my Evora 410 Sport is sublime - though I may upgrade to the 430 Ohlins setup - I'll put that in the 430 Club thread though as with a few bits of bodywork I could turn my 410 into a GT430 Sport.... ) and investing in a new, more practical Lotus as a daily driver....  Who knows. Just waiting and seeing what they do, or do not, throw out there. But that MP4 in Volcano Red, as a spider, is bloody tempting my wallet right now.....

[The Pits 4,408]

Your crossing streams of drivel from two separate threads there Andy, remember Ghostbusters? 

12C in Volcano Red is very handsome thing. Haven't driven one yet alas but would find it fascinating.

See what happens when Lotus don't give us anything to talk about? McLaren this, Ferrari that, Lamborghini the other.

[C8RKH 6,217]

3 minutes ago, The Pits said:

See what happens when Lotus don't give us anything to talk about? McLaren this, Ferrari that, Lamborghini the other.

Aye, and when they give us too much to talk about all you get is pish wish moaning about the number of new models / editions in a month! You cannae win either way lol.... Just happy I have the cars I do have.

[Barrykearley 6,833]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

and investing in a new, more practical Lotus as a daily driver...

Bloody knew it - you’ve always craved a proper 4 seater

[Bibs 11,101]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lotus-ceo-plans-to-take-firm-into-fast-lane-1-6407805

 

[DarrylV8 224]

For me this article really does say it all for a company that promotes cars “for the drivers” then why do we get the CEO talking about Autonomy and driverless cars?

Geely we know about “Lotus DNA” and this has been heavily promoted by the new senior management team

Andy - C8RKH please don’t give us any more crap about let’s see what we get in the future from this senior team, the article says it all. Yes I fear the worst, we need a younger MJK at the helm NOW before we do just follow the porky cars!

yes just my two pence of a rant, and off to the pub shortly 

[Mark Blanchard 1,642]

What pissed me off last week was going to my Son's school, and meeting one of my son's mate's Dad who happens to be a Director at Aston Martin.  I mentioned Lotus of course and he said in a rather smug way that there had been no orders for the Lotus Evija.   I'm guessing Lotus joining a big player like Geely is a threat to Aston?  Anyway, I hope the news is not true.

[C8RKH 6,217]

6 hours ago, DarrylV8 said:

Andy - C8RKH please don’t give us any more crap about let’s see what we get in the future from this senior team, the article says it all. Yes I fear the worst, we need a younger MJK at the helm NOW before we do just follow the porky cars!

Daryll,

Happy too. As long as you are willing to eat humble shit pie if they deliver a car for the drivers.

You, like the rest of us, have fook all of a clue as to what the next car will be, so stop giving us this dour we're all doomed crap unless you can categorically confirm the future!

I'm getting tired of the doomsayers telling the rest of us who are trying to be positive we're talking crap when you have no more of a fooking clue as to what Lotus will do next then the rest of us.

Now's the time Daryl to commit your fact based assessment to the record. Get off the fence or fook off!

( Sorry on holiday. Had a few wines, tired of you doomsayers telling me to shut up!)

Just waiting now for Victor Meldrew to weigh in telling me I'm trying too hard to be cool or a dick or whatever takes his fancy this week.

 

 

[C8RKH 6,217]

On 26/02/2015 at 17:28, LotusX180R said:

I always figured the way to go for Lotus as it pertains to engines is to use one that they already did consulting work on.  It was smart to use the GM Ecotec in the Europa S, though it didn't seem that Lotus promoted he fact that they did the engine.  Don't know if the current Toyota V6 is a product of their consulting work, but it would make perfect sense if it was, and promoting as such would go some way to improving Lotus' image (if it was true).

They designed that engine did they not for the Type 116?  The NA VX had a sweet all alloy, lightweight, 2.2 engine designed by Lotus under GM ownership 

The VX turbo used a heavy iron based engine from GM which meant it did not handle as well as the NA, even with a SC added which was effectively a GM designed bolt on add on. I thought, but may be wrong, that it was the iron block engine that went into the Europa. Can someone confirm?

[Likuid 119]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Daryll,

Happy too. As long as you are willing to eat humble shit pie if they deliver a car for the drivers.

You, like the rest of us, have fook all of a clue as to what the next car will be, so stop giving us this dour we're all doomed crap unless you can categorically confirm the future!

I'm getting tired of the doomsayers telling the rest of us who are trying to be positive we're talking crap when you have no more of a fooking clue as to what Lotus will do next then the rest of us.

Now's the time Daryl to commit your fact based assessment to the record. Get off the fence or fook off!

( Sorry on holiday. Had a few wines, tired of you doomsayers telling me to shut up!)

Just waiting now for Victor Meldrew to weigh in telling me I'm trying too hard to be cool or a dick or whatever takes his fancy this week.

 

 

Its absolutely bizarre that people are upset that you are holding out judgement until we have actual tangible information. Lets be honest, it doesn't matter what Lotus does. It will never be good enough for some people anyways.

[LotusLeftLotusRight 1,226]

14 hours ago, Mark Blanchard said:

What pissed me off last week was going to my Son's school, and meeting one of my son's mate's Dad who happens to be a Director at Aston Martin.  I mentioned Lotus of course and he said in a rather smug way that there had been no orders for the Lotus Evija.   I'm guessing Lotus joining a big player like Geely is a threat to Aston?  Anyway, I hope the news is not true.

Why should someone at Aston Martin be privy to the Lotus Evija order book? Sounds like sour grapes. A couple of months back the Lotus dealer network were told during a get-together that there were 20 deposits down. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between? Dealers will get a healthy “finders fee” for any customers they can schmooze into ordering an Evija from the factory. This seems sensible considering the vast sums involved, compared to their daily business. You are also unlikely to see an Evija being serviced at a UK dealer, at least until the EV Lotus is a standard production vehicle. There will need to be major infrastructure investments at dealers for servicing EV cars: eg. designated EV servicing areas for H&S reasons etc. This is already an issue for mainstream manufacturers.

 

edit: of course if they really aren’t selling at RRP, I will take a demonstrator for £80k.

Edited December 6, 2019 by LotusLeftLotusRight

[C8RKH 6,217]

I was "told" a few months back, before they took it to China, that 12 deposits had been taken. As with all the other speculation, I dare say we'll find out in due course....

@Mark Blanchard I'd have asked the Aston Martin Director how his shares where performing. I see they have recovered to 25% of their IPO value and looks like Lance Stroll is lining up to buy them!

[electro_boy 201]

20 hours ago, DarrylV8 said:

For me this article really does say it all for a company that promotes cars “for the drivers” then why do we get the CEO talking about Autonomy and driverless cars?

...

...the article says it all.

I'm not sure you have read the all article?  Yes autonomy is mentioned but its also mentioned it won't be implemented as per the usual way of the car driving you from A to B  while you sit back and have a cuppa.  Lotus are looking to do other innovative things with the autonomy tech.  eg you take your car on the track and the car shows you how to improve your line and lap time.  For me that is embracing the future tech and still in keeping with the Lotus ways. 

[scotty435 1,028]

Looking at Aston Martin business plan a few years back you would have thought that looks promising with big investment in new models. Sadly it’s not worked out for them Uk sales down 22% and the rest of the world down 28% and share prices down 26%, sure the SUV announced a few weeks ago will address some of there problems  when it goes on sale, but like C8RKH says the sharks are waiting to pounce on there bad fortune. One as to think that Lotus are doing the totally right thing by taking there time and understand the market before rolling there 5 or 10 year plan, we as enthusiastic have to be patient as in Aston’s case throwing big money at things doesn’t always work.

[The Pits 4,408]

Can someone explain what would be the point of a thread on ‘the future of anything’ where speculation was forbidden or discouraged?

And if plans for autonomous tech is just fine and dandy coming from a company that has just rebranded itself as being ‘first, last and always... For The Drivers’ then what would be deemed unacceptable for Lotus to be doing?

[C8RKH 6,217]

56 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Can someone explain what would be the point of a thread on ‘the future of anything’ where speculation was forbidden or discouraged?

You are quite correct. However there is a general tone that says if you're optimistic positive you get shouted down and told to shut up by those who seem to want to revel and frolic in what they predict to be a dire new world of soulless Lotus cars.

So, why don't we encourage both points of view and just maybe we'll all get along fine?

Just a thought, feel free to ignore me.

[electro_boy 201]

I don't think anyone is saying don't speculate.  I think they're saying let's not automatically think it's all going to be crap and against the Lotus values.  

Regarding what features would be unacceptable ... I'll keep an open mind and say it's more about how you implement and use the feature, so won't discount something straight away.  But anything that detracts from the Lotus DNA would not be acceptable in my books.  If the cars became heavy and had little or no thought on use of aerodynamics or driving feel that would all be very sad.  Sure if Lotus suddenly say the next flagship car will be a 4 door saloon with massaging chairs, auto parking and 4 zone climate control all weighting in at 2000Kg ... then I will be very sad and disappointed in the direction Lotus are heading. 

Applying pure speculation on my behalf because there's been about 2 sentences said on the automation side of things.  To me it sounds like a having a driving coach in the car with you, showing you quicker lines, better technique and hopefully getting round the track faster.  I hope you still have to drive the car and perform the actions its telling you otherwise whats the point?! But maybe if your braking point is way too early into one corner, it might modulate the brake to not apply as much pressure as you asked, turn the steering a bit differently than you asked as your entry speed is higher.  Some sort of indication would appear on heads up display or something... So the driver is aware the car took some action and some modification of technique is required and the driver knows what to change on the next lap.  Now I'll admit that, applying this much automation in car will add some weight and remove a lot of feel and communication with the car which the whole point of buying a Lotus but lets hope the engineers can come up with solution to this?  Lotus have a track record of thinking out the box and coming up with some amazing solutions to problems.... 

Obviously if I bought the 311 or its replacement in 20 years time I'm clearly an experienced driver very seriously into track days and after that very raw race car feel and I won't be expecting this feature built in or even an optional extra.  But I if bought an Espirt or its replacement in 20 years, I might be after something less track focussed and happy to accept +50kg weight penalty for this feature.