Future of Lotus

[NedaSay 835]

The new sportcar was benchmarked with Boxster/Cayman from inception. The price range hinted at way back when JMG was still in charge was 55k to 95k but that was then. A base price at 45k should be doable.

[scotty435 1,025]

On 22/12/2019 at 14:54, The Pits said:

Some here know a lot more than you realise.
Let’s look at what we do know based on a Phil Popham‘s various pronouncements: next car is Evora based 2 seater, will be Russell Carr styled with cues taken from Evija, Cayman has been benchmarked, entry and egress has been mentioned a lot  so we know that the new car will be more accessible, more useable, more practical, more comfortable and refined (than an Exige), more modern more accommodating interior, so this is very likely to mean better visibility, more boot space and so on. We also know that Porsche sell a lot of auto Caymans so the next Lotus could well be auto only, for volume that’s a better choice than manual only. Choice of manual and auto is obviously everyone’s preference. Also notable by their absence is any mention of ambitious weight targets, laptimes, next level performance, game changing suspension design (eg active). So, quite a bit really.

You know no more than me or any other true enthusiast of the brand, yes we all have read Phil Pophams various pronouncements any sensible person could not disagree with what he as said so far these issues need to be addressed, as for what he as not said auto only ? let’s not jump to conclusions and think the company will follow Porsche business model as bad as you think it is and yes they do make some truthfully amazing cars. You did say in one of your previous post that us diehards have been keeping the lights on at Hethel for some years now by buying against popular opinion especially in the last 5 years. Out of my lotus ownership in the last 15years 2 out of the 5 cars have been new sadly not 430s as in your case but still a big outlay on my behalf. Did I listen to public opinion after buying my first lotus a humble 135R no of course not that’s why I am still here and believing that the brand will keep on delivering what I and all us enthusiasts and hopefully lots of new customers to the brand want a true drivers car. Have I read anything yet that this is not going to happen is a firm no. 

[BfranklynV6 30]

For the new car I think they should just follow and improve on the exige formula: good power to weight, great handling (low centre of gravity and connected steering feel) and good looks. It’s easy. 

Power to weight: reduce chassis weight with some more composites.   Supercharged, aluminium block mid mounted V8 for 600bhp.

Handling: more of the same. (But nitrons/ohlins as standard on all models). LSD as standard. Aero as per cup 430.

looks: more of the same. Higher quality interior though.

 

[NedaSay 835]

25 minutes ago, BfranklynV6 said:

For the new car I think they should just follow and improve on the exige formula: good power to weight, great handling (low centre of gravity and connected steering feel) and good looks. It’s easy. 

Power to weight: reduce chassis weight with some more composites.   Supercharged, aluminium block mid mounted V8 for 600bhp.

Handling: more of the same. (But nitrons/ohlins as standard on all models). LSD as standard. Aero as per cup 430.

looks: more of the same. Higher quality interior though.

 

So you pretty much want lotus to produce an Esprit here... and to very likely to make them 210k +  when the current goal of the company is to bring an entry model. 

You also want to get a lower weight than the current car with a big lump of a V8... You sure you are not in the market for a Macca? Cause you just describe their 600LT.

[BfranklynV6 30]

A more rudimentary, analogue 600LT, for less than half the price.

Ok, if you don’t worry about a composite chassis, why would this have to be over £100k?

A GM LS2 V8 is about 30kg heavier than the V6 in the exige/evora. Not a game changing amount, but the noise and power to weight ratio, would be just that. 

I think it’s that raw, connected experience that Lotus drivers want. 

[NedaSay 835]

2 hours ago, BfranklynV6 said:

A more rudimentary, analogue 600LT, for less than half the price.

Ok, if you don’t worry about a composite chassis, why would this have to be over £100k?

A GM LS2 V8 is about 30kg heavier than the V6 in the exige/evora. Not a game changing amount, but the noise and power to weight ratio, would be just that. 

I think it’s that raw, connected experience that Lotus drivers want. 

And how is Lotus supposed to offset its CAFE emissions?  I know they will soon be able to offset theirs by having access to Volvo/Geely CAFE credits but not sure it's already the case. Also Geely purchasing Lotus wasn also a case of demonstrating their tech on the world stage. Okm they did not say it overtly but the fact that within weeks of the purchase a skunkwork team was assemble in Shanghai should leave very little doubt ... the chance of seing a GM in a Lotus car has come and gone... IMO. 

[C8RKH 6,202]

8 hours ago, NedaSay said:

the chance of seing a GM in a Lotus car has come and gone... IMO. 

Much more likely to be the Mercedes V8 with or without bi-turbos.

[Barrykearley 6,826]

11 hours ago, NedaSay said:

So you pretty much want lotus to produce an Esprit here...

Yes yes yes. If only Danny could have hung on for a few more months .....

[C8RKH 6,202]

6 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

Yes yes yes. If only Danny could have hung on for a few more months .....

Then Lotus would have gone the way of TVR, Triumph, Sunbeam, etc. The cars looked great but his prodigious spending on baubles, helicopters, offices etc was just not sustainable.

[NedaSay 835]

Lotus could totally produce an esprit but pinning organic growth on a Esprit class vehicle is a stretch.

Pinning organic group on a slew of cars using the same skate and sharing componentry like never before and starting with the midrange model does make sense.

The range is bond to change especially if the next sport car is a "more capable" Exige class vehicle, I do think that this car will help Lotus produce an supercar class vehicle down the line. 

[Bee 85]

1 hour ago, NedaSay said:

Lotus could totally produce an esprit but pinning organic growth on a Esprit class vehicle is a stretch.

Pinning organic group on a slew of cars using the same skate and sharing componentry like never before and starting with the midrange model does make sense.

The range is bond to change especially if the next sport car is a "more capable" Exige class vehicle, I do think that this car will help Lotus produce an supercar class vehicle down the line. 

I agree, and furthermore it would appear to make sense for Lotus to cut their teeth on the many and varied new skills, technologies, engineering, manufacturing aspects etc. from producing the Evija and this mid-range transitional model before their entirely new range arrives. Being honest, the MP4-12C is largely forgotten, now, but it gave the McLaren teams the knowledge, experience and underpinnings they needed to go on to create their current well-regarded range (disregarding the current reliability issues, which Lotus cannot afford to emulate given their widespread - however undeserved - reputation).

 

Obviously, it's important for this new model to get it right: it's still got to be a 'Lotus' but also be as competent a daily runner as any Cayman or Boxster; the interior, especially, will be prodded, pushed, pulled and highlighted in pretty much every single review. Lotus will not want to see the words: 'But it's still no Porsche' in regards to this aspect of the car.

 

However, bigger picture and all that  - as noted before, the MP4-12C was largely forgotten given what followed; being honest, I think it will be the same for this interim model for Lotus. It basically just needs to play it safe - look good, be dynamically interesting, be a daily driver without serious compromise, and not have any notable flaws. The Alpine A110 has very recently showed us all that a highly-competent, reasonably priced Cayman competitor is entirely achievable. If the new car is Lotus's more exciting version of the Alpine, then they will likely have enough of a success story on their hands, with that and the Evija, to see them through to the genuinely new models. If Lotus are planning a convertible model, too, the aforementioned two models will keep them in the headlights of the motoring press just about long enough to plug the gap until the completely new stuff arrives - just what an interim model 'should' be doing...

[Dan E 1,530]

They just need a way to incorporate pop up headlights and I am sold! Just to bring this intelligent discussion down to my level. 

[Nathan Pitman 223]

I’m fascinated to see what happens to the existing line up when this new car appears. Will it sit alongside, or will that be the end of all the existing cars?

I’m also not sure that playing it safe will convince anyone to buy a Lotus over a Porsche (other than everyone already here). 

[NedaSay 835]

6 hours ago, Dan E said:

They just need a way to incorporate pop up headlights and I am sold! Just to bring this intelligent discussion down to my level. 

With the current regulations on bumper and headlights don't hold your breath on that one.

 

 

[NedaSay 835]

 

9 hours ago, Nathan Pitman said:

I’m fascinated to see what happens to the existing line up when this new car appears. Will it sit alongside, or will that be the end of all the existing cars?

I’m also not sure that playing it safe will convince anyone to buy a Lotus over a Porsche (other than everyone already here). 

We should define what is playing it safe here. A well executed car with an original stand out with design cues from Evija seems pretty daring to me.

Also, considering that the capacity of Hethel is still limited and will only be upped - at first - by the number of shifts they can run, I don't see the existing cars being maintained in production any longer than they need to be. If we are guessing correctly the first one to go should be the Exige, which is the best seller of the company.  However the new car could also mean the end of the road for the Elise since it uses the same core chassis. While the Evora will share its chassis with the "interim" next sport car,  therefore Lotus could keep it in production for a while longer, especially with another significant refresh as in F458 to F488... So Lotus could find itself with only two "world cars" plus variants (open top, hopefully) in production, bearing in mind Evija is more of a special which production should not last too long.

 

By the time the new sport car will start production at Hethel,  the Wuhan factory should be complete and we somewhat know what it means. 

[The Pits 4,408]

Easy to forget the importance of styling for the success of what comes next. M250 prototype (Steve Crijns designed) was very well received and Lotus had a lot of deposits based on its looks alone. I still don’t really understand what went wrong or why it never made production but I knew over 5 people with deposits down. Seems a bit strange to me that the Evora didn’t create as much excitement given it was fundamentally an evolution of the same idea (bigger V6 powered car based on bonded ally tub). M250 styling really provoked a response in people though, it was quite stunning at the time, even though I prefer the look of the Evora now. For whatever reason it had more visual impact than the Evora did at launch. I always liked the Evora but was more drawn towards the Exige until the GT430 arrived.

On current form however we can expect big things from Russell Carr and on styling alone the next car is set to cause quite a stir.

[tim_marra 469]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

M250 prototype (Steve Crijns designed) was very well received and Lotus had a lot of deposits based on its looks alone. I still don’t really understand what went wrong or why it never made production

I had a deposit down on one. It was canned when the new owners of Lotus (Proton?) discovered it was only developed for certain markets, excluding the USA.

[Barrykearley 6,826]

 

[NedaSay 835]

They don't  look like updated Saab that much. That SUV looks like an BMW X3 clone, the sedan looks like a first gen Audi A4 to me.

But uh other than being electric what is the link with LOTUS?

[Barrykearley 6,826]

There’s a whole load of folks on here critical of any electric/hybrid lotus options - but here we have another company springing up making only electric. In China there’s a whole load more companies making only EVs. That’s the tiny and almost irrelevant link to Lotus

[C8RKH 6,202]

I'm not one of those who are critical, just clear that I will not be buying an all electric Lotus and will think long and hard before even entertaining a Hybrid one.  It's not what I want from a Lotus.

I also believe that EV's will be the betamax of the car world. The sheer cost of the infrastructure upgrades required will be the killer along with the impracticality of being able to charge them in our city streets. Anyone who currently lives in a UK city with residents permit parking will know how bad it is just to find a car parking space somewhere, imagine the chaos and arguments when EV charging posts are installed and you can never use the one outside your house as someone else got there first?  EV's for those who live in the country, yes, fine, they generally have the space for the charger and the infrastructure upgrade costs are minimal due to the much lower demand and peak load.

If you do the research, Hydrogen fuel cell is now starting to gather some momentum, it's only a matter of time now, especially as new lower energy methods of extracting the Hydrogen are coming on stream.

[The Pits 4,408]

Not many are being critical about electric Lotus cars, most accept they are inevitable, the key issue is the opportunity that might be missed for a range of well funded petrol sports cars to bridge the gap. If we do get some last hurrah petrol cars everything coming from the new management says the focus will be on interior tech, ease of entry/egress and daily useability. Lotus have survived to date by offering something unique in the marketplace. Exige is perfectly positioned  for someone that wants something more hardcore and exciting than a Cayman but also something more useable than a Caterham. In theory, making a Lotus more like a Cayman will open up a wider market and allow Lotus to ramp up production and benefit from greater economies of scale. In practice you still need a reason to choose a Lotus over a Cayman. At the moment Lotus have several which are not widely known or understood as they are not being communicated. Doing that in an engaging, memorable way is what could and should be happening right now, in my opinion. The new car should at least have exciting styling to differentiate it from the intentionally conservative Cayman. That will certainly help but in any event there is much groundwork that needs to be done before launch. Maybe they’re saving it all for the new year but outside of the rarefied (and for most, irrelevant) Evija we haven’t heard a squeak from the factory in 2019.

[yeller77 98]

On 28/12/2019 at 14:15, The Pits said:

Easy to forget the importance of styling for the success of what comes next. M250 prototype (Steve Crijns designed) was very well received and Lotus had a lot of deposits based on its looks alone. I still don’t really understand what went wrong or why it never made production but I knew over 5 people with deposits down. Seems a bit strange to me that the Evora didn’t create as much excitement given it was fundamentally an evolution of the same idea (bigger V6 powered car based on bonded ally tub). M250 styling really provoked a response in people though, it was quite stunning at the time, even though I prefer the look of the Evora now. For whatever reason it had more visual impact than the Evora did at launch. I always liked the Evora but was more drawn towards the Exige until the GT430 arrived.

On current form however we can expect big things from Russell Carr and on styling alone the next car is set to cause quite a stir.

Not to hijack, but on the M250 and may already be known to you lot, but was watching a rerun of the Salvage Hunters where they get a Morris Traveller from Peter Dudding, the take-a-number guy. Right there in the middle of his massive collection, flashing by, she sat. No idea when it originally aired or if still in collection. Nice to know it's been somewhere at least getting dusted now and again. Wonder if it's a runner or a roller? At 1:11 in this clip:

Carry on...

[au-yt 481]

[Kimbers 1,765]

Going back a few posts. I have said it once (many years ago when I was at Honda) and I have harped on about it ever since. 

Electric is a gimmick. It's not a viable day to day and future proof method of transport. 

1. The mining of required Minerals is toxic and worse for the enviroment than Oil
2. Miining takes place at only a few sites and all are remote and movement requires a lot of Co2 production
3. Currently the technology is not recyclable at the end of it's life and has to be stored securely costing yet more money and using Electricity to ventilate and recycle to toxic fumes as it degenrates.
4. Battery life is only Guaranteed for 8 years. Cost of a new set is currently around £8000. So going into the future none of our cars over 8 years old would still be viable or cost effective. This 8 years is only if you don't constantly Charge boost the batteries which damages them even more. Initial tests have seen constant "Boosting" can reduce the batteries to as little as 5 years life. BTW, boosting (30 minutes to get 80% charge) is the only way to do it if you are travelling).
5. Current reserves of the required minerals show at current use about 120 years of supply. However, should you fast forward and ban all Oil based transport and replace them with electric, the reserves would last approx 24 years at most Thats less than Oil reserves. And don't forget, it's not recyclable.

The ONLY way for me is Hydrogen fuel cells. Pure and simple.

Pic of "locality" of a Lithium mine. They often strip all the salts from salt flats leaving desert and processing uses huge amounts of water in places were there is already shortages.