Future of Lotus

[blindside 472]

We’ll continue to wait with bated breath!

[Sport220 50]

I have just checked the pricing of the new 718 GTS 4.0 and it does make the Evora GT 410 look massively overpriced...

Just give us a little teaser of the new car FFS, the wait is unbearable

[C8RKH 5,955]

I almost bought a DB11 at the weekend, numbers looked good. When it really came down to it just could part with the Evora.

I must have a thing for troubled car makes....

Still swithering. 

[The Pits 4,407]

Only if you want a Cayman, not everybody does. Evora has never been cheap to buy or cheap to make but to me it’s massively more desirable than a Cayman or 911. If I really wanted a Porsche I would have one already and most likely wouldn’t touch Lotus with a barge pole.

If I was German and I liked Porsches I would probably go for a Cayman GT4 although it would be an eternal frustration to me that Porsche wouldn’t put the GT3 engine in a Cayman (or start mid-mounting engines in the 911). As such both cars are compromised way below their potential. Or maybe I’d just think ‘hey it beats a Camry engine’ like everyone else and make do.

If you’re going to spend a lot of money it’s generally better to spend a bit more and get the thing you really wanted than to save some money and settle for 2nd best. I don’t see the Cayman GTS as good value I see it as a huge amount of money for a car that I don’t really want. Evora costs a lot more but I would spend every waking moment working out my dream spec, photoshopping colours and placing a bespoke factory order. I’d visit Hethel to watch it being built and meet the lady who did the stitching and the guy who’s name is on the build plate. I was surprised to discover that most new Lotus are bought from a showroom, factory orders make up considerably less than half the total new sales. In some other markets and with some other brands it’s a lot lower than that. Unless it’s a really special car and a really special experience I struggle to see the point of buying brand new. But clearly I’m in a minority!

[blindside 472]

I’m with you but I’d forgotten just how good the naturally aspirated flat six GT3 engine with the 9k rpm red line sounds! Also no hesitation, no flat spots, just masses of grunt. It was quite compelling to drive. I was still thinking about it for days afterwards!

That’s before you even start to look at the impressive array of creature comforts to be had. All adds to the list price, which takes it well north of Lotus price wise. But overall if you take residuals etc. into account it is a very attractive proposition.

[Jonathan E 43]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

I would spend every waking moment working out my dream spec, photoshopping colours and placing a bespoke factory order. I’d visit Hethel to watch it being built and meet the lady who did the stitching and the guy who’s name is on the build plate. I was surprised to discover that most new Lotus are bought from a showroom, factory orders make up considerably less than half the total new sales. In some other markets and with some other brands it’s a lot lower than that. Unless it’s a really special car and a really special experience I struggle to see the point of buying brand new. But clearly I’m in a minority!

I've just spent the last 8 months doing exactly this but with an Elise, I was offered some exceptionally large discounts on showroom models from 4 different dealers, I'm not sure if thats due to lack of sales in the current market or not, but I suspect dealers must have some insight into what Lotus will be doing in the coming months and its no real secret that the Elise will soon end production. I've bought a Cup 250 to my exact specification with some discount but nowhere near what I could have had on a showroom model, I'm also hoping to see it in production, meet the the stitching lady and "Billy the bolts" when I visit the factory which should be in the next few weeks. I've owned 9 previous Elises, 3 of which were brand new showroom stock but the last 4 have been used examples all different models, this one will probably be my last Elise and thats why Billy and Mrs Stitchy will be getting a visit from me.

I doubt the car will be without faults, I know the brand and I've had enough of them to know what owning a Lotus means, but I also want to get a new Elise while it still has the original DNA(I know its not a S1, but you know what I mean). I could have bought a Porsche but somehow they just don't do it for me, I don't "get" them. If Lotus intend to take a new direction with their cars as seems to be the case, they need to shift whats left of the current models/chassis, announcing new cars at this moment in time wouldn't do them any favours.

I've bought my new Elise in the hope that its one of the last of the line, I wouldn't be surprised to see more heavily specced models before production actually ends as a way of tempting people to part with their hard earned, isn't that what the latest Evora is? and isn't that what all vehicle manufactures do when a model is coming to the end of its life maybe they'll throw a Volvo engine in it or even some electric motors?. If Lotus are to flourish they really are going to have to produce very different vehicles to what they have now, and they're going to have to learn to put them together well too, I wish them all the luck in the world but I'll be sticking with my 2020 Elise thanks very much, which I guess that puts me in a minority too, but I suspect the vast majority of current Lotus enthusiasts are exactly that. 

Edited February 4 by Jonathan E

[The Pits 4,407]

Cup 250 is a certainly a driver’s car for the ages in my book. Congrats.

Sale of new petrol cars banned in the UK from 2035 today. Other countries are aiming for 2030. All car makers will have to change radically in this decade. Those who have a thing for petrol cars need to start thinking about their petrol keeper if they don’t already own it.

[Jcx 131]

17 hours ago, The Pits said:

If you’re going to spend a lot of money it’s generally better to spend a bit more and get the thing you really wanted than to save some money and settle for 2nd best.

Totally agree!  I wanted a 410 but didnt want to pay 410 money so bought a 350 and never stopped looking at 410s so bit the bullet and traded the 350 for a 410.  In 7-weeks my Lotus owning history went from none to two.

I've owned 6 Porsches - 2 Boxsters and 4 911s.  One air-cooled and one turbo.  Enjoyed them all in different ways but none of the 6 made me feel like my 410 does.  None were as much fun to drive.  None felt as special. 

I do think the new GTS 718 is a very good value package and will no doubt be a great car to drive.  And if it were my only car I'd lean towards that rather than an exige.  But as a play thing, a toy car, for drives and giggles, there really is only one car for me right now.  And i am lucky enough to have the key within sight.

[jep 783]

Sometimes it is good to dip your toe first....I bought a NA Evora, thinking it would be a bit slow but I wanted to get in at the lower price bracket just to be sure I liked the Evora experience. 

Wow! A keeper. 2 years in, I hope to never sell it. I have now driven S, 400 and 410 but I still love the normally aspirated. The NA is a tad frustrating on the autobahns but still very enjoyable and gets to 140mph briskly enough. And I am only in Germany a few times a year, so it hardly matters.

Ideally, I would also have a 400, maybe even an IPS to compliment the NA. Given just one though, dollar for dollar I would take the NA.

Justin 

[KAS-118 229]

Latest on the all new petrol car for 2021 (although maybe not a lot we didn’t already know) https://www.caradvice.com.au/824572/lotus-all-new-petrol-sports-car-coming-in-2021/

[The Pits 4,407]

No-one I know at Lotus was talking about an Elan at all in 2019. Much as I like the idea, I have no idea where this rumour came from.

'Some time in 2021' could easily mean 2022 before any customers get their hands on the new Evora based car. Another 2 years without a new car to sell is very tough on dealers. The recent GT410 is a sensible thing to offer but is just an option pack. Before that the most recent model update was the GT410 Sport in 2018. Progress you could describe as glacial at best. JMG's model launches were a not well timed in some instances but talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire!

[tim_marra 465]

Whatever Lotus brings out next please DO NOT call it the Elan 

[KAS-118 229]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

No-one I know at Lotus was talking about an Elan at all in 2019. Much as I like the idea, I have no idea where this rumour came from.

'Some time in 2021' could easily mean 2022 before any customers get their hands on the new Evora based car. Another 2 years without a new car to sell is very tough on dealers. The recent GT410 is a sensible thing to offer but is just an option pack. Before that the most recent model update was the GT410 Sport in 2018. Progress you could describe as glacial at best. JMG's model launches were a not well timed in some instances but talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire!

I think Autocar did https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/lotus-elan-frame-boxster-rival-revival-plan

[Sport220 50]

Wouldn't be surprised if sales dipped below 1000 in 2021 if the new car only launches in 2022

[blindside 472]

Pure speculation on my part but it’s a reasonable guess that Geely could be more interested in using Lotus and all the groundbreaking engineering & design expertise at Hethel as an R&D ‘mule’. Primarily to help prepare the whole Geely group for the evolving automotive revolution: https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/automotive-industry-rd-and-the-unseen-billions_id86321.aspx

If this is the case perhaps the next petrol driven Lotus model is purely a tactical play and as such will be well down their list of business priorities.

More grist to Jonny’s point about acquiring or hanging onto “petrol head pinnacle” Lotus models at a premium while the opportunity is still there.

[Barrykearley 6,546]

Maybe just maybe geely could actually get “normal” people to consider lotus as a possible car purchase.

[The Pits 4,407]

The big question then is whether or not a car that would to appeal to normal people could ever be a true Lotus?

[C8RKH 5,955]

10 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

Maybe just maybe geely could actually get “normal” people to consider lotus as a possible car purchase.

Hope not. This forum would be so bloody boring if it was full of "normal" people. Only crazies buy Lotus and crazies make the best forum fodder!

Selfishly, I don't want Lotus to sell gazillions of cars. I really do think Lotus will dilute it's offering if it goes all mass market and the essence of what has made the company great (in the eyes of customers) will be lost. I also quite like owning a car from an "exclusive" brand - one that has history and heritage, is recognisable to most people, but one where the cars are not £500k each plus and the preserve of the super rich.

So, for purely selfish reasons I want to see Lotus flourish, but not just be turned into a "brand" for soulless samey cars or cars for the super rich.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Bibs 10,864]

3 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Selfishly, I don't want Lotus to sell gazillions of cars

 

3 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

So, for purely selfish reasons I want to see Lotus flourish

A tricky combination. 

[C8RKH 5,955]

2 minutes ago, Bibs said:

 

A tricky combination. 

Ferrari sell 10,000. McLaren sell 5,000.  So, around 5x and 3x what Lotus have been selling. That would be good for me, as opposed to the 250,000 Porsche sell.

[The Pits 4,407]

Agreed. I wish the ambition was to succeed as a ground breaking sports car maker not a me-too volume car maker at any cost. I have to admire McLaren's refusal to produce SUVs.

[jep 783]

I don't like 911s but Porsche still make wonderful sports cars that people like to buy and many are fanatical about owning. 

Some of these sports cars are proper racers (GT2, GT3 etc..). Without the everyday wagons, I doubt Porsche could build these. 

Just 'cos I don't get 911, this does not mean I don't think the cars are good or for that matter sincerely made by craftsman who want to build sports cars. If selling horrid 4x4s means they can do so, well done them.

I don't believe Lotus can survive as they are or as they have been. Many have tried to keep Lotus niche and have failed. Well, kept it niche but failed to make money to allow more proper investment. 

Geely appear to have a long term plan. Lotus have not had a proper long term strategy (IE. 10 years+) since the 70s. It may not work. Given the landscape they face, it is the only sensible option to take. It may mean a few more fallow years but at least they have a vision, backed by funds (unlike Dany). 

Justin 

 

 

[The Pits 4,407]

Maybe so but it woefully lacks imagination to copy Porsche, copying was never a Lotus thing. Mazda, among others found great success with a sports car by copying Lotus!

What worked 15 years ago comes with absolutely no guarantees of future success now. All car makers are having to radically re-evaluate everything they do now, including Porsche. This is a time for leaders, not followers. A time for bold, radical ideas. The sort of thing big car makers used to call Lotus for help with. Tesla sent a seismic shock through the whole industry and tide is rapidly turning in their favour now. Who did they call to get the ball rolling? The whole company started life on a production line at Hethel.

[C8RKH 5,955]

The bog standard Porsche 911's are @jep in my opinion good but boring. People are more fanatical about owning one because of the brand and the image.  They are a marketing company, a lifestyle company, first and foremost. They are a maker of cars second and a maker of sports car thirdly. All in my very humble opinion.  The GT3/4 and RS cars are motorsport embued masterpieces - even I, an anti-Porsche guy, absolutely accepts that and I applaud their very large and lengthy commitment to motorsport particularly at the clubman level. In fact, Lotus lost a lot of credibility in my eyes when JMG disbanded Motorsport Division and they are not nearly as involved as I would like in supporting and encouraging owners to race. They could learn a lot from Porsche here in my, once again, humble opinion.

However, Porsche cars are not by default good. There is a lot of hype about their build quality and reliability. The truth is they are masters of concealment when things go wrong - this is again reflected by their marketing skills.

A lot of people see Porsche as an aspirational car (indeed I used to laugh in the early 90's at people who thought they had made it when they got their first BMW 3 series - I used to remind them that even then they had paid £5k more than the bigger and more exclusive Ford Mondeo would have cost them lol...). They are fanatical about them as all they really care about is the brand and the residuals. So they talk these up whilst they hide the issues and the problems for fear of the impact it might have on the future value of their car.

I agree with @The Pits. Lotus has never been a follower of fashion. It's cars were often better engineered and better made than it's rivals at the time.  Yes they have had issues along the way, but so have Porsche, Ferrari, et al. It's just that everyone seems to love that old Lotus phrase....

If Lotus follows the herd then I will be out of the future cars. If they are going to just create a product to compete with Porsche on the like for like, then I might as well just buy the Porsche and follow the herd. The Lotus DNA and attraction will be lost to me.  We all buy into a brand for different reasons. I'm fascinated by Colin Chapman the man, the engineer and the race team owner. I'm fascinated by a British car company that stuck up two fingers to Ferrari and made better road cars, in my opinion, at the time.  I proud of a British company that has decades of engineering achievements, often world class and world beating, in it's history.

But, if Geely just goes all me too then I am out. I have an S90 with all the bells and whistles from Geely. Big screens, TFT dash, bongs and buzzers for everything. It's all a bloody distraction and often downright dangerous when your trying to swipe left/right and scroll around a large screen whilst driving. When I get into my Evora 410 Sport, the absence of any of that shite does not sadden me. It excites me at is then just me and my car. The two of us. Out on the road. 100% focused. 100% pure joy. 100% pure fun.

But, we are all different and some people just want to have the right brand/mascot on their key ring down at the pub/golf course....

[Spinney 695]

I’ve owned many Lotus cars in my time, the last 3 all bought brand new, and the one thing that really dismays me is, in all that time I have never once received any communication from Lotus, absolutely zilch.

I’ve bought other cars new, mostly Mercedes, and have always received regular communications from them. The usual ‘thank you for choosing etc......’ but also regular news in which I might be interested, such as new car announcements or updates to existing, plus the occasional dealer events etc, etc. 

A friend of mine has bought a few new Porsches and he is almost inundated with similar. 
Now, probably like everybody on here, I love Lotus for entirely different reasons and, in the past, have always accepted their shortcomings with regard to keeping me informed. Now, however, and particularly since the Geely takeover plus a new management structure, including marketing, there is absolutely no excuse for not keeping in touch with your existing customer base, never mind your future potential customers. Modern methods of communication have made it a complete no brainer to do so but not, it seems, for Lotus. 

I find this all very frustrating and would have hoped that by now the Geely influence would, at least, have changed this one aspect. I do understand there hasn’t been a huge amount for them to talk about but how about sending news on the recent ‘Softer’ Evora or prior to that, the Evija. Ok, I know that wouldn’t be on my shopping list but, nevertheless, it would help ramp up some excitement and let everybody know what they are working hard on. Marketing emails cost no more to send to 10,000 people, or more, than they do to 1, so why not?

The only way I get to find about new or enhanced models or, indeed, any other news about the company is from forums such as this, which is fine but not really what I expect from a company in the 21st century. Lotus have my email address and when I try to sign on to be kept in touch, just get a reply saying I’m already on their list. Well if that’s the case Lotus, why don’t you bloody well keep in touch with me, a long time customer and fanboy since the 1960’s???

I once had a Subaru Outback that we used for things like taking rubbish to the dump or for shopping or just for carrying over large items, rather than mess up the Mercs and it was quite brilliant for the role. Well I sold that car some 8 years ago when I no longer needed it but I still receive updates and news about new cars etc from them approximately every quarter.  

So come on Lotus, show me you care about your customers too. You never know, I just might be interested in buying one of the next generation of new cars!