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Bazza 907

General Election - 8 June 2017

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@franjipane I would not say that last post was ranting at all. I did answer your DUP question in that I said a lot earlier I would rather NOT have an alliance with them. However, I will answer the question here for your directly, or at least the question I think you are asking as actually you have mostly been making statements.

Do I want or look forward to a UK Government having a supply and confidence deal with the DUP?  (note, there is no talk of a coalition and that is a different deal altogether. Supply and Confidence is a "vote by vote deal" not a defacto we agree to support each other on everything). 

Short Answer:  

Yes.

Long Answer:

I believe that what the UK needs right now is for a government to be formed that can quickly get on with the business of Government. For that to happen, the Tories, who, quite frankly given the fact they won over 20% more seats and polled more individual votes than the party who was the first loser, are the only party that has legitimacy right now to seek to form a government. In seeking to get a majority the winning party has very few choices:

Labour: Have made it clear they will not form a tactical or strategic alliance with the Tories

SNP: Have made it clear they will not form a tactical or strategic alliance with the Tories

Libs: Have made it clear they will not form a tactical or strategic alliance with the Tories

DUP: Have made it clear, and have worked in the past with the Tories, that would consider a deal

Greens: Irrelevant

UKIP: Don't exist

So given the choices available, I support the Tories seeking to form a minority government with the DUP, under a supply and confidence dea,l as it allows us to meet our obligations to open up negotiations for Brexit. It keeps our current negotiating team in place and so this reduces any further disruption and chaos to the process. This has to be a good thing for the people of the UK.  As an aside, and has already been discussed now, this makes a more hard line Brexit less likely, which has to be good for those people in the UK who have not yet accepted the democratic will of the people through last years referendum.

If in making that deal they have to formally support DUP policies around abortion and gay rights, then that would change my stance. However, as far as I know the main ask is going to be around an "open border" with Ireland AND NI and I am not aware of anyone who is against that. Yet again though, before any details are announced, we have people, mainly on the left, creating their placards and demonstrating against something they believe MIGHT happen but do not actually know IF it will happen.  

For me personally, I also think this is better. I never really wanted us to pull out of the Trade Agreement, however, I did not believe, and still do not believe, in the carte blanche right for "freedom of movement".  I have always thought, and wanted, that a deal on freedom of movement could be done. The deal I wanted was a simple one, and I believe is a very fair one, that would be acceptable to the majority in the UK and in the EU - the deal should be, and the terminology is very important, "the right for freedom to move for WORK"!  You see I have never had a problem with immigration per se, and certainly I have many posts on here and elsewhere where I call out the numerous benefits of immigration over the last 100 years or so. What I do object to, is people coming here from other parts of Europe, with no job lined up, nor NO MEANS to support themselves, and EXPECTING, and in some cases demanding, to receive benefits, handouts and housing.  This to me is just wrong. It also creates a system where the immigrant is open to ruthless exploitation from individuals and businesses who make a considerable amount of money out of their suffering.  The two main issues I have with this "freedom to roam" policy then are:

1. The concept that you can roam anywhere and expect the local tax payer to bail you out (I have this same fundamental issue with people who want top pursue the "traveller" lifestyle. They bang on about their right for somewhere to camp, and their rights to follow their lifestyle as they see fit, pay no taxes, etc. Then when they have finished they just fook off and leave the locals to pay for with cash sweat the clearing up of the mess after them). This situation is not acceptable to me. Neither is it acceptable to me that someone who comes here from Europe can then claim child benefit from the UK tax payer for a child who is not in, and probably has never set foot in, the UK!  It's just wrong.  We are not talking about refugees or asylum seekers here. These are people from the EU who CHOSE to move of their own free will.

2. I have an issue with the way the EU has failed to ensure fairness with UK citizens who live (retire or work) in the EU.  We have all heard for instance of the stories where usually retired UK people have had their homes demolished and repossessed in Spain. Where basic medical care that should be free under the reciprocal agreements we are supposed to have in the EU are systematically ignored and abused by Spanish, French and other hospitals and doctors and where payment is demanded up front before treatment DESPITE this not being lawful under EU rules.  This is one of the issues that led me to believe the Labour Party and others were naive in their desire to offer "freedom" to the EU nationals here, before we had a reciprocal deal for our own in the EU.  By banging on about how we would guarantee their rights, before securing anything similar for our own, we have failed and did fail to ensure that as a nation we were protecting OUR citizens.  But then, the EU has been good at doing that for a long time. Look at how NO ACTION has been taken over Spain's bullying of Gibraltarians.

So there you go a @franjipane you have a clear and direct and full answer to your question re the DUP - do I support it and my justifications for my decision.

Maybe you'd like to go back through your own rantings and the numerous sound bites and now come back with your own clear and direct and full answers to the many questions you have been posed ;)  If anyone has been a little ranty and shouty, I believe it is the fans of the team who despite scoring goals at the election, where still the first losers in the cup final :devil:  I'm a long time LFC fan, I know what it is like to make good out yet another disappointing season with a trophy less cabinet, despite putting on a good show.

One last point. It seems to me that democracy is dying in the UK. That really scares the shit out of me.  The new politics of the young and the left is that if they do not get the answer THEY want, then they demonise, mobilise, agitate and protest until they force their will!  That is a very dangerous road and a perilous journey down it that we are embarking on.

 

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I think this stance and game by Corbyn is just so wrong on so many levels, but willing to hear and understand peoples points of view. On one hand, Corbyn is all about listening to the voice of the people. But when the people do not vote for him, he decides the best course of action is to just let politicians decide the winner?  This goes against his whole stand re Brexit etc and just shows to me, in my little simple mind, he is just as power obsessed and hungry as any other politician and yet again it is about him, not the Labour Party or the common voter. Thoughts?

From the BBC's Andrew Marr Sunday morning show and website:

"Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says he can "still be prime minister" as he aims to thwart Theresa May's attempt to run a minority government.

Labour will set out its own programme for government as an amendment to the Queen's Speech, focusing on austerity and a "jobs-first Brexit," he says.

He told the BBC's Andrew Marr he would invite MPs to back his policies instead of the ones set out by Theresa May."


Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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It's a joke of a situation. May should just have a minority government and be done with it.

good policies like increasing basic tax allowances would get through - stealing free school meals from children would not. Win win position frankly


Only here once

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So all the policies that involve spending more money would get through, and the ones that might save some cash wouldn't. How's that going to work in the long term?

I think that if we weren't about to start Brexit talks, a minority government might just about work, but think right now a majority (however small) is probably essential.

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Austerity hasn't worked frankly. We need investment, infrastructure, housing etc - the list goes on. Until we invest in the future - the futures only going to be more expensive and bleak.

every single year we are spending more and more no matter what. Benefits need ruthlessness especially with folks who just won't work - and there's hundreds of thousands of those. The financial stats are twisted with this lot. 

Businesses need to pay tax on revenue in this country. Brexit can just fall back on wto rules. I just dunno what all the fuss is about

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Only here once

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Really well put post @C8RKH I'm in the middle of loads of Sunday diy stuff so can't reply now, not sure I need to really I respect and understand your point of view more now even though I differ on some points, while agreeing with some of the more pragmatic ones.

Agree Barry we need investment yes!

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I dont care at the moment who is in charge as they are  all out for themselves.Lets get out of Europe and then sort ourselves out. Five years from now we can chose again. I can hardly wait. :sofa:

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@C8RKH. The right to freedom of movement for work is what is already in place in the EU. The uk has and has had the right to remove those (including EU citizens) who are not working. It is the dirty secret of successive governments that they have done absolutely nothing about it and for some it provides a convenient point to whip up ferver.

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Maintaining an open border between Eire and Northern Ireland will instantly provide a back door into the UK for anyone in the EU; not just EU citizens but anyone admitted to the EU from anywhere else. Something for you Brexit types to consider. Also an interesting article from the New York Review of Books...how it all appears to others....

 

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06/10/britain-the-end-of-a-fantasy/


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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3 hours ago, 100th_Idiot said:

@C8RKH. The right to freedom of movement for work is what is already in place in the EU. The uk has and has had the right to remove those (including EU citizens) who are not working. It is the dirty secret of successive governments that they have done absolutely nothing about it and for some it provides a convenient point to whip up ferver.

Actually, it appears that you have the right of residence if you are an EU or EEA citizen and  " are a ‘qualified person’ (you’re working, studying, self-employed, self-sufficient or looking for work)" That definition is wide enough to include those not working but looking for work.

 

https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate/overview


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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"Looking for work". The phrase all the Barry's scroungers use when collecting benefits? :)

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Margate Exotics.

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4 hours ago, molemot said:

Maintaining an open border between Eire and Northern Ireland will instantly provide a back door into the UK for anyone in the EU; not just EU citizens but anyone admitted to the EU from anywhere else. Something for you Brexit types to consider. Also an interesting article from the New York Review of Books...how it all appears to others....

 

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06/10/britain-the-end-of-a-fantasy/

Yes, however, what we can do is move the border check to the ports and airports in NI. That is the main fundamental difference between say the Ireland:NI border and say an independent Scotland:England border - there is a big bloody body of water between NI and the rUk and that makes it much easier to control immigration to the mainland.  It still gives us a problem with immigration into NI though, granted.  And we need to ensure we have checks and balances in place with regards to benefit claiming. I still have no issue with anyone from the EU coming here and working. I expect them to be paid a fair rate for a fair days work and to pay any taxes due.  Nothing wrong in that from my point of view and as long as we have a qualifying period of working and tax paying then they should also be able to claim benefits. A bit like how UK citizens need to pay NI for 30 gazillion years before they are able to get the full state pension.

The other advantage of immigration for work, is that it proves the point to the lazy feckless bar stewards who bang on about how there is no work that actually, there bloody well is and it is just that they are too lazy and feckless to get off the backsides, get on a bike, and get a job.  Yes, i know, I'm still stuck in the 80's. Where's my Abba albums!

We might be able to remove people who cannot support themselves back to whence they came. But that is probably a very long and expensive process. So for me Brexit was about having the power to put the checks in place BEFORE they arrive. Once here. And having worked and integrated into the community. Well, at that point they are valued member of Team UK aren't they?

Brexit and the stance against freedom to benefit roam has been largely miss-understood and the supporters just labelled widely as racists who hate anyone who was not born here. That is such an insult and so wrong for many of us who supported Brexit.


Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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Even when we were under attack by the PIRA and their bombs, there was no immigration control between Eire and Northern Ireland and England,Scotland and Wales. Special Branch were tasked with doing what they could...but there was no effective control. There are already immigration controls on ports and airports in NI, but none on the land border with the south. This situation is one of the things the DUP seek to preserve, they don't want to establish border controls on the land border with Eire...and there are no controls on EU citizens arriving in Eire, so they could just take a bus and go north...and the DUP aren't going to approve of border controls between NI and the rest of the UK. None of this is anything other than horribly complicated and a virtual minefield...and we won't get away with a real minefield these days!!   


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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6 hours ago, ian29gte said:

"Looking for work". The phrase all the Barry's scroungers use when collecting benefits? :)

It only very recently that unless they can prove they have paid U.K. Tax at some point they loose the entitlement to claim. This appears to be area dependent though. 

Funny old thing is - if I look for work I can find it everywhere - paid and well paid. 


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8 hours ago, molemot said:
8 hours ago, molemot said:

Maintaining an open border between Eire and Northern Ireland will instantly provide a back door into the UK for anyone in the EU; not just EU citizens but anyone admitted to the EU from anywhere else. Something for you Brexit types to consider. Also an interesting article from the New York Review of Books...how it all appears to others....

 

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06/10/britain-the-end-of-a-fantasy/

A biased article by fintan o Toole a left wing southern irishman

 


hindsight: the science that is never wrong

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Everyone, everywhere, is biased about this!!


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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True.  

Many are blinkered as well as biased.

Many more are blinkered and bigoted and biased!  

But many many more are blinkered and bigoted and biased and ill informed! :devil:

Quite are few are just in denial.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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And that's true for both sides. I was called a "Dirty Tory" and told I "Need a punch in my strong and stable mouth" by a friends daughter and her friend after I dared to question why she was voting Labour. I've known her since she was born.

I also politely reminded her that it was criminal damage after she used FB to suggest defacing and breaking Conservative signs.


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Shocking. Ive had told her to come back when she had grown up, was mature enough to understand two sides of a story and until then to just go and fook off.

But then you are no doubt much more polite and tolerant  than me! ;)


Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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Did i hear correctly 1000,000,000 gbp for 10 seats /votes! bargain I think the DUP know more about negotiations than I thought? 

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Hello Theresa , we`re firefighters police ambulance drivers and paramedics. We came in quite useful in the past few weeks I think you`ll agree. Could you give us more staff and a pay rise ?

Theresa : There is no Magic Money Tree. Of course we can print our own money but we only do that for our mates the bankers. Its not for the likes of YOU.   

Hello Theresa, Our 10 MPs will support you - on the basics  anyway-if you give Northern Ireland 1.5 billion quid.

Hello ,Queen here,  I need 82 million for Buck House. Can you sort it or I`ll have to doss down at Windsor Sandringham or Balmoral.  

Theresa: No probs. 

 

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And your point is?


hindsight: the science that is never wrong

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Isn't that £1bn for N Ireland rather than to the DUp. 

Better deal than £ 11.2 bn pa to help secure the student vote ....

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Black n gold

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