Lotus Exige Cup 380

[alias23]

11 minutes ago, Swiss360Cup said:

KOMO-Tec know everything about it...I've had a Quaife LSD on my 360 Cup. Always worth a trip to Komo-Tec, very friendly, very helpful.....

Can you provide further comment on your Quaife install? I had heard the addition of the LSD creates a lot of understeer.... Feedback would be appreciated.

[Swiss380Cup]

Normal behavior of a Lotus which the DPM corrects quite nicely is of course under steer, but once you know, you'll get used to it.... LSD provides a better traction on the other hand....and you don't feel under the control of a "robot" which does things you do not quite understand ....or even notice sometimes......  and obviously LSD with DPM off leaves the car entirely up to you to drive around........Lotus race cars are equipped with a plate LSD...but plate is a little rough and more complicated to set up with various lock levels... Torsen is smooth around..... LSD are also more of a challenge under wet conditions.... plate type  worse than Torsen though.....

[Supercrosser]

1 hour ago, Swiss360Cup said:

KOMO-Tec know everything about it..

isn´t that sad, that u have to ask the Aftermarket those questions?

It should be Lotus Job to inform about those significant topics.

I am seriously disappointed about the fact, that a Exige with around 250kg less weight and same power output does worse at Hockenheim than the GT4. IMHO this can only be attributed to insufficient setup of the car.... This is where the Exige has to be optimised significantly ... but NO Info on that regarding 380 and 380CUP.... really disappointing...

I do -1,5° camber up front (-2,0 back) and my 987 handles otherwordly.... 

shouldn´t a 200kg lower weight Exige do the same.......??

[Jokke Vlo]

20 hours ago, The Pits said:

Good points well made Andy.

However with the smaller pulley the same supercharger is working harder and spinning faster than it does in the 350, so I think Lotus lowered the rpm limit to the point where power was starting to tail off anyway. SSC will tell you that the 1320cc supercharger is already running to its maximum capacity and pushing its thermal efficiency at 345bhp. Hence why they recommend the 1900cc version which makes the same boost at lower charger rpm. However Komotec seem content to keep going with the stock Harrop supercharger all the way to 430bhp and beyond, revving all the way to 7200rpm too. Who you believe is up to you. I hope some of the owners of modified cars will share more of their findings, both good and bad.

But Lotus seem to think that pegging it at 6800rpm was a good idea. I don't imagine they did this just to be killjoys. I am in the camp of those wishing for higher revs but have to admit to not troubling the 7200rpm cut out very often in my car.

Of course not, your optimal power on the cup is at 6700-6800 so you don't go to cut of, even on track. I totally agree, me neither on my previous one. 

But if your cut off is just where your optimal power is, things get complicated. I think you underestimate a little ! You just can't use the theorectical HP in real life. Which you can on the original V6 easy without going untill the limiter. In reality you shift the orginal V6 at around 6900, the 380 at 6500. That's a big difference ! Believe me

Edited April 24, 2017 by Jokke Vlo

[Swiss380Cup]

51 minutes ago, Supercrosser said:

isn´t that sad, that u have to ask the Aftermarket those questions?

It should be Lotus Job to inform about those significant topics.

I am seriously disappointed about the fact, that a Exige with around 250kg less weight and same power output does worse at Hockenheim than the GT4. IMHO this can only be attributed to insufficient setup of the car.... This is where the Exige has to be optimised significantly ... but NO Info on that regarding 380 and 380CUP.... really disappointing...

I do -1,5° camber up front (-2,0 back) and my 987 handles otherwordly.... 

shouldn´t a 200kg lower weight Exige do the same.......??

If Lotus doesn't have a "motorsport" department like Porsche, which supports its own racing team and other racing teams, the experience with the car in racing conditions goes to the racing teams and other specialized firms, ...., in this respect of course Porsche is way ahead, but never forget that at some stage in the 80s Porsche had big difficulties also and almost went down with the errors of the 928-944, etc. Etc.... and that it has come back and is now one of the most profitable automobile manufacturer in the world..... but they came back to the basics.... IMHO Lotus seems on the right track to do that also.... but I'm not sure they're as strong in terms of engineering...whereas Porsche is probably one of the best engineering fim of the automotive sector..... it's quite impressive what they do in Weissach with their 2'000 engineers..... but it's a different world... I still love the Lotus concept and I hope they'll continue improving their cars to my liking in the future...

Regarding the real performance of the car, I'm not surprised that a GT4 does better..... Lotus does good with chassis and handling but Porsche are the masters in this respect.... imagine how can you keep a car like a 991 on the road with a 500 hp engine behind the rear axle....unless your a genius in chassis tuinng you're just doomed.....

On the other hand, regarding the real performance....Lotus is still behind other manufacturers in it's "official" performance testing with professional drivers on racing tracks around the world. The only real comparison I found on the internet was the one of the Exige S, with the Cayaman GT4....and on the Bugatti, in Le Mans,  and Komo-Tec with their EX430..... but all tests were with the first S.........but after the S came the V6 Cup,  the 350, the 360 Cup, the 380 and now the 380 Cup... I'd love to see what the real performance of these all new cars are now, massive weight reduction, improvements in several areas, etc..... but unless we ask ourselves, I'm not sure we'll see it.

Lotus seems to have difficulties in attracting the attention of Motorsport Magazine to do these tests....or not the sufficient means to provide the cars, the facilities, cover the costs (driver, track, etc.etc.). I'd be more than happy to lend my car to a professional driver under the supervision of a professional team to do some times around a track somewhere..... .

I'm sure the new generations of Exige 350, 380 should be around the performance of the GT3 997 2nd generation.......or in between 1st and 2nd 997 GT3s... forget about 991, since with PDK, rear steering wheels, all the electronics ....it's unreachable performance for an Exige so far.....

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Swiss360Cup

[Swiss380Cup]

If I can reassure a few of you around here the Exige S1 did 2 s better around Le Bugatti at Le Mans, than the Cayman GT4 with Christophe Tinseau (1:49:26 vs 1:51:29), around the same time with Sébastien Bourdais in a 997 GT3 2nd generation (450 PS) with 1:49:25.....

And the Lotus Exige S (V6) 1st generation did 1:11.30 around Hockenheim short, just behind the 997 GT RS 1st generation (415 HP) with 1:11:10.....

So I'm sure the V6 Cup, 360 Cup, 350, 380, 380 Cup do even better.....just ask Lotus to organise it..... I'm sure a few clients will be more than willing to lend their cars for a few laps with a professional driver who knows what he's doing on board.....

So be assured and re-assured that your car is an outstanding sports car..... and will remain so for the near and far future :):)

Never forget also to compare comparable things........Asking P1 performance to a 80K car is just not realistic..... LOVE your car and invest in a driving coach... and you'll love it even more.....

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Swiss360Cup

[LF1]

@The Pits How about an LF1 liveried one... joking

[The Pits]

Same old questions, same old answers. It all comes down to money and unfortunately the current Malaysian owners won't let Lotus have any. They trusted Dani Bahar with millions. He revamped the test track and built himself a nice bathroom. Since then, the money tap was turned off and they hired a guy who has slashed costs, pinched pennies and hiked prices.

It costs in excess of £100,000 for a manufacturer to set an official Nurburgring lap time. To do a nice film and PR push to go with it, another £100,000. Easy for Porsche or Nissan. No use for Lotus or Caterham at this time.

There's so much we'd all like to see Lotus do, there's so much they'd like to do too but because everyone buys Porsches, it's taking them a long time to trade their way back inch by inch. They can compete on the race track but not in the showrooms. Domestic support here in the UK is very low sadly. They sold many more Cayman GT4s in the UK last year than Lotus's target number for Elise, Exige and Evora combined. If you know the full picture you should be glad that Lotus are still trading at all. If you take another look at what Lotus are making currently, the new Elise Sprint, the 250 Cup, the Evora Sport 410, 311 and now the 380 Cup this is reason for wild celebration! On looks alone the 380 Cup is one of the most desirable cars on sale, imagine how great it must be to feel the road again through your fingertips, feel the treadblocks moving on your tyres if you're used to cars with electric steering?! We all take that for granted now but every week someone else who was never that interested in Lotus drives one and wonders why it took him so long. I think part of the frustration here is because we all see how close they are to true greatness. Just a bit here and a bit there and they could really take on the world. I totally feel this frustration too but given the current circumstances I think they're doing one hell of a job.

[cbaileyuk]

Will always look back fondly on my first real drive. 

It was home, from Norfolk in a used Elise - I was convinced the steering was broken - every catseye I went over caused the steering wheel to wobble, cambers on the road had an impact on the wheel. I was convinced something was wrong. I could feel the road through the wheel.

100 miles in, it dawned on me....the cars that had gone before were the 'broken' ones  

[Mark030358]

46 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Same old questions, same old answers. It all comes down to money and unfortunately the current Malaysian owners won't let Lotus have any. They trusted Dani Bahar with millions. He revamped the test track and built himself a nice bathroom. Since then, the money tap was turned off and they hired a guy who has slashed costs, pinched pennies and hiked prices.

I

They have even got rid of the netting behing the seats (no joke) in the bog standard 380... Just where am I going to put my little breakdown card

[LF1]

9 minutes ago, cbaileyuk said:

Will always look back fondly on my first real drive. 

It was home, from Norfolk in a used Elise - I was convinced the steering was broken - every catseye I went over caused the steering wheel to wobble, cambers on the road had an impact on the wheel. I was convinced something was wrong. I could feel the road through the wheel.

100 miles in, it dawned on me....the cars that had gone before were the 'broken' ones  

Exactly that experience.... after an hour on the motorway thinking what a dodgy car to offer as a demo, then drove it on some local country roads and found the sport button to realise that's how the steering on cars should feel!

Porsche then sold.

[pete]

Only taken 9 pages to come that conclusion

[Swiss380Cup]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

Same old questions, same old answers. It all comes down to money and unfortunately the current Malaysian owners won't let Lotus have any. They trusted Dani Bahar with millions. He revamped the test track and built himself a nice bathroom. Since then, the money tap was turned off and they hired a guy who has slashed costs, pinched pennies and hiked prices.

It costs in excess of £100,000 for a manufacturer to set an official Nurburgring lap time. To do a nice film and PR push to go with it, another £100,000. Easy for Porsche or Nissan. No use for Lotus or Caterham at this time.

There's so much we'd all like to see Lotus do, there's so much they'd like to do too but because everyone buys Porsches, it's taking them a long time to trade their way back inch by inch. They can compete on the race track but not in the showrooms. Domestic support here in the UK is very low sadly. They sold many more Cayman GT4s in the UK last year than Lotus's target number for Elise, Exige and Evora combined. If you know the full picture you should be glad that Lotus are still trading at all. If you take another look at what Lotus are making currently, the new Elise Sprint, the 250 Cup, the Evora Sport 410, 311 and now the 380 Cup this is reason for wild celebration! On looks alone the 380 Cup is one of the most desirable cars on sale, imagine how great it must be to feel the road again through your fingertips, feel the treadblocks moving on your tyres if you're used to cars with electric steering?! We all take that for granted now but every week someone else who was never that interested in Lotus drives one and wonders why it took him so long. I think part of the frustration here is because we all see how close they are to true greatness. Just a bit here and a bit there and they could really take on the world. I totally feel this frustration too but given the current circumstances I think they're doing one hell of a job.

I fully agree with you, for such a small company, I believe they do a great job at improving their cars.... it's a pity they can't do more.... but my guess is that with a slightly better coverage of the performance on tracks around Europe and the world, they would sell many more cars..... I'm a real nut about cars, so I can lose time on the internet looking for tests, reviews, comparisons, etc.... and I think the few I found on the 1st S V6 were sufficient for me to be confident about the potential of this car.... I'm sure around Le Bugatti, the new Sport 350, 380 and eventually 380 Cup would destroy the previous time on record, same at Hockenheim and elsewhere.... so to be in between the 2nd generation 997 GT3 RS and the 991 GT3 RS I believe is not such a bad achievement for a car which is less than half the price..... Don't you think ???? The record at Spa with a race V6 Cup R is 2:37, around 10 s MORE than a 991 GT3 Cup..... not bad either....And the 991 GT3 RS with Ron Simons aboard does 2:40....... So let's cheer up ...... Maybe something I'd ask Lotus......pleaaaaaaaaaaase,  is to let clients have the option of all the carbon parts, on the Cup also....or again I repeat myself have a real Cup on offer.....

And never forget...what's the point in having a car that can go around Spa in 2:37, if you can't yourself manage less than 2:55 :):):):) 5 sec is a huge lot to gain on a fast track like Spa... Invest in a race driving coaching is a better investment than a ton of money in fancy equipment.... 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Swiss360Cup

[The Pits]

And what is the fastest laptime around Spa anyone has seen from a Cayman GT4 road car? I've seen 2.44 but that was a Clubsport race car.

[geartox]

On 22/04/2017 at 20:52, alias23 said:

Or spend money saved, on track tuition and learn to drive better in turn likely beating most 380 drivers with your old cheap V6S

I have discussed yesterday during a trackday with an another Exige 350 owner. Before the 350 he has a V6S for 3 years. I asked him about the differences between the two cars, his anwser was : "it's the same car" (and this guy is quick...)

just a feedback, from the field.

and one more, last Thursday (for an other trackday, yes I know I am addict) a guy just get the 380 to replace his 350. same question : "what is the difference ?", answer : "torque at low rev"... 

 

 

[NW76]

Fastest I have seen (all road legal):

- 2:37 GT3 RS (top pro driver, setup profesionally done)

- 2:46 GT4 (setup profesionally done)

 

The fastest I have ever done in my EX460 was 2:51 ... Winny did a 2:41 recently with his EX460 ... If I can break into the 2:40s this year I am very happy ?...

By the way - I fully agree with @Swiss360Cup. The besr investment is always the one in the driver (coaching!!!)...

[Swiss380Cup]

19 minutes ago, NW76 said:

Fastest I have seen (all road legal):

- 2:37 GT3 RS (top pro driver, setup profesionally done)

- 2:46 GT4 (setup profesionally done)

 

The fastest I have ever done in my EX460 was 2:51 ... Winny did a 2:41 recently with his EX460 ... If I can break into the 2:40s this year I am very happy ?...

Personally with a heavily modified 996 GT3 RS I could go around Spa in around 2:45, and I'm not a pro...didn't do much better with the 997 GT3 RS 1st gen, because of the modif to the 996.... chassis mainly....

So we talk here great lap times.... if a pro at the Lotus Cup Europe can lap in 2:37 in a V6 Cup R, I'm sure any Exige can match the GT4 time with a good driver.... and my guess is that with the EX460 someone should get to these 2:37.... and my "coach" of the Norbert Jülicher Driving school always tells me that ANY time under 3 is a good time in Spa for a non pro driver.... so again, invest in coaching rather than in watts

My strong belief is that where Porsche is FAR superior is with chassis tuning, and that's where you get your seconds around any lap... I had a great mechanic friend who worked for a pro racing team for more than 10 years on Porsche and he knew everything about that topic... that's where with Lotus I think we lack some real professional support.....

But remember something to gain 5 s around Spa is a huge exercise... either for the pilot or the car....

Edited April 24, 2017 by Swiss360Cup

[Jokke Vlo]

2 hours ago, The Pits said:

And what is the fastest laptime around Spa anyone has seen from a Cayman GT4 road car? I've seen 2.44 but that was a Clubsport race car.

That was a normal GT4 car, not a clubsport. I have talked to the owner and saw the car. The driver was an Italian pro racer (forgot his name)

[NW76]

So its a 2:44 then for a GT4 ... wow ... very fast...

991 GT3 2:42?!?

[Swiss380Cup]

Yesssss but between 2:40 and 2:50 these are great times and the effort to get these 10 s in terms of car improvement is big.... 

I'm sure the 380 Sport and Cup will be in this bracket... and don't be mistaken the GT4 is an amazing car...,,

[JG220]

22 minutes ago, Jokke Vlo said:

That was a normal GT4 car, not a clubsport. I have talked to the owner and saw the car. The driver was an Italian pro racer (forgot his name)

There was a completely standard GT4 with cup 2s lapping in the high high 40s, low 50s a couple of weeks ago

 

[LF1]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

And what is the fastest laptime around Spa anyone has seen from a Cayman GT4 road car? I've seen 2.44 but that was a Clubsport race car.

MD of RSR says their standard V6 Coupe same time round Spa as their GT4. We talked at length when I was considering hiring one. 

[Swiss380Cup]

So coming back the subject of the day....is the Exige 380 Cup a great car or not....I believe it's an outstanding one..... and since as LF1 quoted, the standard RSR V6 Coupe laps Spa at around the same time as a GT4, the 380 and 380 Cup should be better which should place them in very good company..... Remember that the 996 GT3 lapped the Green Hell in 7:54, around the same time as the first S V6 !!!!!!!........, the 996 GT3 RS in 7:43..... the Cayman GT4 7:43 too.......so now Porsche we could say sells you the technology of an almost 15 years old car in a new package............the last manual the GT3 RS 4.0 did 7:27 ....so 27 s in more than 10 years of development  on a more than 20 kms track is an achievement, but at a significant development cost also and with the addition of a lot of electronics too........... so the 380 and 380 Cup which should be somewhere in 7:40s maybe less, we might never know,  is no car to be ashamed of, on the contrary, since it will always I hope remain a car, half the price of this competition......So Lotus, please keep going...and I'll keep investing in your cars....but pleeeeeeeeeease, allow me to have the option of motorsport parts and pleeeeeeeease get your chassis tuning know how out more wildly that we can benefit from it ........

[NW76]

Its a great car - no doubt. 

But how much faster is it vs the previous 360 Cup in Spa or around the Nordschleife? Only .5 faster in Hethel than the 380 Sport?!? Thats very little difference - does Aero not play so much of a role there? 

I can only hope that Lotus will give a 380 Cup to Sport Auto for their Supertest. That will put some numbers to it ... really curious how much faster it will come out and if it can reach a 7:40ish time ...

 

[The Pits]

Unfortunately Nurburgring laptimes are not a reliable measure for track performance for many reasons. Neither is Sport Auto. Many Cayman GT4 owners will tell you that it needs a lot of set-up to get to handle well, so I don't subscribe to this idea that Porsche are masters of chassis tuning. You can adjust quite a lot on the Cayman GT4 and for a fast time you will need to. Who's to say the Sport Auto GT4 time at the Nurburgring wasn't done with a car with optimized geo and the Lotus wasn't still on stock settings? Everyone complained about the standard V6S settings and the understeer, many also talk of the transformation after new geo stetting, more camber and so on. It seems the Cayman GT4 is similar in this regard. Christian Gebhart's Nordschleife lap in the Exige was very brave and committed, but it was also pretty wild and ragged. Certainly the Cayman lap looks much more composed. But the Exige's gearbox looks awful and he's graunching gears. Many have criticized all Exige V6 gearboxes based on this video. I know that not all Exiges are like this but those looking to knock Lotus aren't interested in a second opinion. Now the whole internet believes the Exige V6 gearbox is 'terrible' when this is not the case in my experience. I have driven an Exige V6 with a terrible gearbox and that was a properly hammered Lotus Driving Academy car. Truly terrible gearbox! Most probably at the end of its life too. I wouldn't be able to buy one after that experience, fortunately I have also experienced how good they can be and mine still is 15,000 later. My point is yes, Lotus are respsonsible for the preparation of cars that they let the press drive. If they fail to prepare the cars well, people will draw conclusions based on that one car. As we all know, not many manufacturers play fair when it comes to press cars. Do we know this Sport Auto Exige was even provided by Lotus? We don't know the full story. Do we know the full spec of the Cayman? Is 7.53 a plausible lap time? It's not slow but perhaps a bit disappointing. It's certainly disappointing that it has led the whole internet to believe that the Cayman GT4 is faster everywhere, that there is something 'wrong' with the Exige, that Lotus are not making their claimed horsepower, that Porsche are the undisputed masters of chassis tuning, all of this mostly based on that Sport Auto lap. People find this stuff easy to believe because many want to believe it. Porsche, Porsche uber alles. However the Cayman GT4 is more slippery than the Exige V6S and has 30bhp more. That alone can account for most of the 10 sec difference in the laptime around the Nordschliefe. Just timing the two cars on the high speed run down the main straight the Porsche finds 2 seconds there.

I also hope that Sport Auto get hold of an Exige 380 Cup but I won't base my whole opinion of the car on the numbers they produce.