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The Pits

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3 hours ago, Gashead1105 said:

I asked @Hangar 111last year about a chargecooler with less (or indeed no) power upgrade, and the response was that KT didn't see it as being worthwhile due to the cost of the chargecooler and fitting being a large part of the price of the 460 kit. Personally I think a solid chargecooled 400hp in the exige  would be ideal and shouldn't have much of an impact on gearbox life given that the same box is used in the Evora. I don't need 460hp and I won't pay for the lesser upgrades due to the heatsoak they cause - would rather put the bigger supercharger on. 

The problem is that doing a chargecooled 400 appears disproportionately expensive, because the chargecooler system is reasonably costly.  But it is the only solution to having the power full-time.

If people want it, there is no reason it cannot happen.  If we can get a number of interested people, I can take that to KT as a proposition.

Dave

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Just now, Hangar 111 said:

The problem is that doing a chargecooled 400 appears disproportionately expensive, because the chargecooler system is reasonably costly.  But it is the only solution to having the power full-time.

If people want it, there is no reason it cannot happen.  If we can get a number of interested people, I can take that to KT as a proposition.

Dave

Fully agree, I am pretty sure KT would do have not issue with a EX390 or EX410 kit with a Charge Cooler... but it will probably cost you 7-8k EUR anyway... so why not go for the EX460 straight ...

ok gearbox... got that... no risk no fun ;-)

If the gearbox is gone (you need a gearbox oil cooler for track use anyway), you can always replace it with a great upgrade ;-) ... whatever this will be...

 

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Great post.

Always loved the intercooler water spray on my Evo TME. Would be a great solution for Lotus.

Looks like £400 online: http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=products/water-methanol-injection-systems/water-methanol-injection-kit-for-forced-induction-gasoline-engines

Could be worth looking into @Jokke Vlo? Or do you not believe the problem is heat soak?

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The thing about the Evo was it was spraying water on the intercooler itself as a way to keep the intercooler from heat soaking, whereas water injection is actually spraying water inside the intake tract (way more effective).

Methanol doesn't require any special pipes as the AEM kit is methanol compatible but isn't a good idea because it's a fuel and wildly messes up the air/fuel mixture and you will have to have the car tuned for it because the stock ECU very likely won't compensate enough for it. Methanol is the best way to make power as it's effectively bumping up the octane to north of 110 depending on how much you inject which lets you advance timing and run more boost, but if you run out of methanol on the track then your engine is likely to go boom because your tune is now catered to 110 octane equivalent and large degrees of timing advance. Hence, why methanol is only really used for people that drag race their cars - i.e. short squirts of acceleration and thus not likely to ever run out. If you run methanol you need to have it switched on and available at all times on the road and track. Of course, the AEM kit comes with a low fluid warning light but I wouldn't take that risk with methanol. 

Water is the safest way as it doesn't really alter the air-to-fuel ratio unless you inject TONS of it. Injecting 250cc isn't going to do anything but reduce air intake temps as if you were driving the car hard on a circuit in the middle of December/January, and that's why it's great. You could be driving on a track in July/August but your car intake temps will be equivalent to driving in December/January. And you can switch the water off if you want in the winter or when road driving (not that it really matters to do so). 

Also, it's worth noting that under normal driving you hardly use any water unless you are heavily into boost. Apart from track days I have never had to refill mine as I don't hit boost much on public roads due to how dangerous that is in most circumstances. And, water injection cools your entire engine and combustion down. I can place my hand on top of the intake manifold of my car after a hard 20 minute session of track driving as the water keeps all temps down. 

My engine bay with the water injection nozzle installed on the pipe that goes from the intercooler to the throttle body. The car was being resprayed at this time so it's not the cleanest and the windshield is covered. 

FkB2909.jpg

Edited by cib24
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Here is a link to a thread where someone did exactly what I said to do on his Elise SC in the States, but he used the windshield washer tank as his water injection tank, which is what I do on my FD. I can still use it on the windshield if I want to clean off bugs and grime but it also feeds my water injection pump. His kit is a bit cheaper looking but it does the same thing as the AEM one. 

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f160/installed-water-meth-injection-my-sc-elise-108770/

591b0f61855a7_PhotoDec0225217PM.thumb.jpg.5602bde97e59a44a323e5b79541b360c.jpg591b0f6ebf298_PhotoDec0225242PM.thumb.jpg.67c2ad4aeeb83ed99e4df897a5d125bb.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, The Pits said:

Great post.

Always loved the intercooler water spray on my Evo TME. Would be a great solution for Lotus.

Looks like £400 online: http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=products/water-methanol-injection-systems/water-methanol-injection-kit-for-forced-induction-gasoline-engines

Could be worth looking into @Jokke Vlo? Or do you not believe the problem is heat soak?

It's probably a problem on every non-intercooled supercharged Lotus if you are tracking it in the warmer months and you live south of the channel, although to be honest if you just drove your car, parked it for 15-20 minutes and got back in it the engine bay would be heatsoaked so you don't have to be in a warm climate to be the victim of power loss. The guys in the States use it a lot because most of the good tracks are in places like Florida, Texas and California where it's +35C outside and most cars are heatsoaking really bad.

The price of the AEM kit went up a bit it seems (thanks Brexit and plummeting exchange rate :P ) but I can hook you guys up through a Euro Car Parts representative and he should be able to price a kit for £300-350 if you care to save a few quid. I paid £300 for mine at the time. Let me know. 

Edited by cib24
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Great idea but sadly not a straight forward fit on the Exige.

Lotus don't use a boost pressure sensor and fitting one will mean removal of the supercharger to get to the inlet manifold to add a port for a sensor...

May be worth thinking about when I have the TVS1900 installed!!!!!!!.

 

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6 hours ago, Gashead1105 said:

I asked @Hangar 111last year about a chargecooler with less (or indeed no) power upgrade, and the response was that KT didn't see it as being worthwhile due to the cost of the chargecooler and fitting being a large part of the price of the 460 kit. Personally I think a solid chargecooled 400hp in the exige  would be ideal and shouldn't have much of an impact on gearbox life given that the same box is used in the Evora. I don't need 460hp and I won't pay for the lesser upgrades due to the heatsoak they cause - would rather put the bigger supercharger on. 

Same here, I don't think the car needs 460 HP, but great brakes, great suspension and settings and constant HP all through 7'200 rpm..... it would be damn fast.. and I'm not sure there's a big dif with the HP hikes... HPs are automobile marketing tools.... But I'm sure if you ask KT and pay for it they will gladly do... I'll ask again...given my legendary stubborness  I might have a better outcome :):):) 

Edited by Swiss360Cup
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I would imagine Komotec considered water injection also as an option. Can you ask them if they did and also why they chose to develop a chargecooler instead? I'm sure they ran into the heatsoak issue long before anyone else. I'm trying to see the catch with water injection. I guess easy to fit but not so easy to optimize in terms of locating the nozzle, how much water to squirt and so on.

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12 minutes ago, The Pits said:

I'm trying to see the catch with water injection

ISTR that if the car is mapped for the water injection and the tank accidentally runs dry you run into big issues. 

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So done properly it's a new ecu, with a choice of maps? If so it's extra £1500-£2000 and then you lose DPM. It does open up a world of other possibilities like bespoke traction control but unlike with mapping JDM stuff where there are loads of decent mappers with tons of experience, you're into pioneering territory with an Exige. Maybe one or two have seen the occasional Toyota 2GR but you'd need to find someone that really knew what they were doing. The set up of launch control and TC takes ages and is very expensive to do properly. Maybe the standard ecu can adjust to a modest amount of water injection? I looked into getting a new ecu to access 100% throttle and run the car leaner for more bhp but it was a big job and not cheap.

Again, a really nice thing for the factory to develop and install to get it working with all the systems. I believe BMW have done something similar with the M4 GTS?

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I can't see Lotus investigating water injection when they already have spent the R&D on the chargecooler for the 400 and 3/11. If they really wanted to they could port that across now. For me, given that there are 2 or 3 years left till the run out models come out (and then 5 years to the enjoy them before we are all passengering automated electric pods and petrol stations are ancient history) surely if you already own a V6 of some description the point is to hold out for the all singing run out versions? Even slinging a few k into modifications is going to be cheaper than buying a new one. That's going to be my argument to the wife anyway!

 

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1 hour ago, Seriouslylotus said:

Great idea but sadly not a straight forward fit on the Exige.

Lotus don't use a boost pressure sensor and fitting one will mean removal of the supercharger to get to the inlet manifold to add a port for a sensor...

May be worth thinking about when I have the TVS1900 installed!!!!!!!.

 

You don't need to use a boost pressure sensor provided by Lotus. Plumb in a rubber hose to a vacuum line on the intake manifold or one which sees positive pressure (there will be a few vacuum lines in the engine bay that you can use). Really easy. Can plumb it in with something like this which the AEM kit comes with anyway making the install painless. Water injection will still work if you don't have it boost activated. It can be throttle activated but then you will just use more than is necessary. 

The AEM control unit I showed in a picture above is its own boost sensor, so all it needs is the rubber hose run from the T-line below which you have connected to an existing vacuum line. Ta da. Job done. 

Vacuum-Hose-Tee-2.jpg

 

Edited by cib24
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1 hour ago, Bibs said:

ISTR that if the car is mapped for the water injection and the tank accidentally runs dry you run into big issues. 

If the tank ran dry then the temp would just go up to where it would have been without the kit surely. No re map or new ecu needed for this if I understand correctly. 

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1 hour ago, Bibs said:

ISTR that if the car is mapped for the water injection and the tank accidentally runs dry you run into big issues. 

No, if you are running small amounts of water like I suggested you don't need to touch the ECU at all. Only tons of water affects the tune in any way shape or form. 250cc of water just cools the intake charge and the ECU just richens the fuel mixture automatically as if it were cold outside. 250cc is not enough to do more than bring intake temps down to the 30-50 C range. 

If you run out of water the ECU just adjusts for the hotter intake charge, as all ECUs have ever done since cars became electronic and had temperature correction built into them. 

You only run large amounts of water when you are trying to get more power through more boost, which most Exige owners aren't concerned about since the 350 and 380 are already very quick. It's about ensuring you don't heatsoak and end up with only 250-300hp because the ECU has pulled timing due to the fact that your intake temps are over 60 C. Hence, you run the smallest 250cc nozzle that comes in the AEM kit and all you are doing is cooling the air going into the engine. 

And with the AEM control unit you can decide if you want to start water injection immediately at positive boost pressure or later, or have it feed in gradually. You can even set it to use whatever percentage of the 250cc nozzle that you want. So, if you only want to run 50cc of injection you can do that although that might not have any real affect on intake temps since the injection quantity is too small. But you could try 100cc, 150cc, 200cc, 250cc. It's not enough to alter your tune and if you run out of water you won't be in any danger because you haven't altered your tune and your ECU will adapt as per normal. 

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1 hour ago, The Pits said:

So done properly it's a new ecu, with a choice of maps? If so it's extra £1500-£2000 and then you lose DPM. It does open up a world of other possibilities like bespoke traction control but unlike with mapping JDM stuff where there are loads of decent mappers with tons of experience, you're into pioneering territory with an Exige. Maybe one or two have seen the occasional Toyota 2GR but you'd need to find someone that really knew what they were doing. The set up of launch control and TC takes ages and is very expensive to do properly. Maybe the standard ecu can adjust to a modest amount of water injection? I looked into getting a new ecu to access 100% throttle and run the car leaner for more bhp but it was a big job and not cheap.

Again, a really nice thing for the factory to develop and install to get it working with all the systems. I believe BMW have done something similar with the M4 GTS?

Yes, run small amounts of water injection as I have recommended, i.e. 250cc or perhaps less (depends on your post supercharger intake temps if you hook up a sensor to monitor them), and you won't affect your tune or need any sort of tuning and the ECU can cope if you accidentally run out because all you are doing is cooling intake temps by 20-30 C so as not to heatsoak. 

It is exactly what BMW did with the M4 GTS and water injection was even used in WWII fighter jets. It's been around forever. The reason manufacturers don't put it in cars from the factory is owners would forget about it and the reservoir potentially eats up storage space. It's another thing for owners to fill up and they have to use distilled water, not tap water. 

The only time you go through heavy quantities of water anyway is on a track day. In my car with the 250cc nozzle I have to refill my 600ml windshield reservoir tank every 2nd or 3rd time I go out on track for a 15-20 minute stint. It uses that little. And I am able to monitor my intake temps and see them update in real time and I can tell you it works excellent. And I have run out before and all that happened was my intake temps began to rise after about 1.5 laps and that was it. The ECU compensated as it does under normal operation, and my ECU is from a very old generation that reads from a static table of values to determine the air/fuel mix. The Exige ECU is WAY more advanced and updates in real-time based on MAF and O2 sensor readings so the ECUs adaptability is way better. 

12 minutes ago, 550superfast said:

If the tank ran dry then the temp would just go up to where it would have been without the kit surely. No re map or new ecu needed for this if I understand correctly. 

Exactly. And that's because you are only injecting a small amount of water to cool the intake charge. You aren't doing it to make more power by slapping a smaller pulley on there and running more boost which would need an ECU remap anyway. 

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Sounds good. Just pressure testing the idea!

I positively like the idea of topping up the water injection tank. Sounds hardcore. The road going homologation of the Group A rally cars had water tanks and plumbing so they could connect them up for the rally cars. Lovely stuff!  I would totally enjoy filling up the water tank of my M4 GTS.

:thumbup:

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1 hour ago, cib24 said:

No, if you are running small amounts of water like I suggested you don't need to touch the ECU at all. Only tons of water affects the tune in any way shape or form. 250cc of water just cools the intake charge and the ECU just richens the fuel mixture automatically as if it were cold outside. 250cc is not enough to do more than bring intake temps down to the 30-50 C range. 

If you run out of water the ECU just adjusts for the hotter intake charge, as all ECUs have ever done since cars became electronic and had temperature correction built into them.

I think KT looked into that ... I remember discussing it with them but dont remember why they didnt go that route?!?

Does anybody know what sensor drives the "ECU heat adjustment" process?!? ... if I am right, the V6 doesnt have a intake temp sensor - at least there is no data I can access via the CANBUS access of my AIM system ... would be interesting to understand the algorithm behind...

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Sounds like a good solution to reduce the charge temps if you're tracking your car. I'm getting an odb dongle for my car, does that allow you view the ignition timing or anything else useful? I'm wondering about the easiest way to set up the water injection controller without fitting a load of extra sensors. I'm sure a small nozzle at 100% would be ok but I'd rather it was efficient and have some data to back it up.

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Response to Norbert (NW76).

Nah, not selling, haha. Just trying to help since lurking and joining this forum I have seen a lot of talk about Exige underperformance and a little research and basic understanding of thermodynamics points to the fact that the cars are heatsoaking because they don't have an intercooler/charge cooler or water injection to keep intake air temps in check after the supercharger compresses and heats up the air.

The car does have an intake air temp sensor, all cars running any sort of ECU will have one. The only cars that wouldn't have one would be manual carbureted cars from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when.

The Lotus Exige or any OBD II car (basically any car since about 1996) can have their engine sensors monitored through the OBD II port, which is how the AIM system works.

Lotus AIM instruction booklet:

http://www.aim-sportline.com/download/ecu/stock/lotus/Lotus_EvoraV6+ExigeV6_103_eng.pdf

Screenshot of intake air temp sensor channel name:

591b4bf9d914e_LotusAIM.JPG.4415d944cc175b36bf0c206199e4fbc5.JPG

You can also be cheap and buy one of these from Amazon for £10-50 (more expensive updates faster) and use Bluetooth to connect it to your phone and check the error codes or live sensor data with the "Torque Lite" or "Torque Pro" app from the Apple or Google Play store.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=OBDII+Bluetooth

https://torque-bhp.com/

Edited by cib24
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Yep - I know the channel is there in the Evora Protocol (which I use on my AIM) but on the Exige V6 this channel doesnt deliver any values. Most of the others do generate values. So, I always assumed, this channel is not used (doesnt have a sensor!?!?!?) on the Exige but might have on the Evora.

Neither do the Wheel pressure Channels on the Exige for example ;-)

 

 

 

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