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Racing games 'breed' bad drivers


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Hi All,

Racing Games Breed Bad Dirvers

This story on the BBC reports:

Playing computer racing games may make drivers take more risks on the roads, a study involving 1,000 people suggests.

Virtual racing seems to lead to aggressive driving and a propensity for risk taking, particularly among men, say the German authors.

Men who had been playing the games were subsequently more likely to race and overtake other road drivers, yet had one second slower reaction times.

Any views, my Calum who is 6 loves smashing cars up on the x-box and playing stunt driving on the x-box. Am I doing him harm?

If you are coached properly to drive by a good instructor and have agood road attitude then I cant see the problem. I wonder if the group was biased towards risk takers any way?

Here is the original paper. Off to read it now.

Alex

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It's typical generalisation and sensationalism.

If you class games such as GTA as racing games they might have a point. However a good quality simulation such as GPL or GTR actually enhances ability.

About five years ago I raced in an online league using GPL with some success, it made me a much better driver and I'm convinced it helped me to keep my old V8 on the road when I hit black ice mid way round a corner.

I know Matthew Becker and Gavan Kershaw used to drive GP2, an older sim and they agreed it was useful. Last years world series by Renault champion is a committed "sim driver" as well as being a real life star. There are plenty of other examples.

I don't use any racing games now, but that's been due to living in a caravan for a few years whilst converting a property, as soon as it's done I intend to start again as it does improve driving skill.

Regards

Fred

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The only thing a computer racing game would be usefull for is to familiarise yourself with the layout of a track you had never been to.

You cant feel any cornering, acceleration and braking forces with them and you dont use any real depth perception .

And of course you dont need any courage to use the game.

Cant beat seat time in a real racing car IMO.

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I believe any video game playing improves hand eye coordination, and reaction time. This may not exactly translate to driving in the real world.

I also believe that you would need to be using a steering wheel type controller for any racing game to improve your skills. A lot depends on the game in question whether it is an 'arcade' type of game of a 'simulator' like GTR or Grand Prix Legends.

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Total rubbish (as per) !

Learning vehicle dynamics on a good simulator and how to conter over and understeer using the accelerator and brake comibinations are rife in good driving games. GT4 is one of them, the dynamics engine is superb on this game where you can alter just about ever concievable setting on the 'car' - without a few hundred thousand pounds on a racing team you could never do this in real life. Infact a large part of that game is setting up the car to give you the best performance on a certain circuit.

There is an awful lot of stuff you can learn in a game you might never learn in real life experience. It's interesting becuase reading up on stuff like suspension and brakes you can then actually go out and try it in a virtual world and translate text books into something you can see and interect with safely.

I won my track day at Lotus by being the quickest on the Lotus on Track simulator !

We have to get the message across to young people about the dangers of using these games and how it can spill across into real life situations. He suggested games could carry a pop-up warning that would flash on the screen before a player starts a game, alerting them to the potential risks.

That's just hilarious and so typical of this pathetic nanny state.

Good game designser know people want realism and accuracy in their products, infact the very few games I have played on the PC have taken me many places in the real world. Problem is a lot of people have a generalisation that games are just nerds, pong and keyboard bashing - far, far, far from it...classic case of judging a book by it's cover.

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I've long had strong opinions on this so will probably end up ranting, so be warned :shock:

My experience leads me to agree with most of the above. I grew up on F1 GP, GP2, GP3, GP4 and more recently GTR and GTR2. Apart from enhancing my circuit driving (I work as a race/circuit instructor) they taught me all I know about chassis setup.

Regarding GT4 I think it has terrible dynamics - try turning off the traction in a powerful rear drive car, accelerate flat out at a bend and it'll still understeer with the rears spinning. My biggest struggle with track novices is that they either charge at bends or fling their car in with way too much speed and scrub to somewhere near the apex. When I tentatively ask why, GT4 is usually the answer...

I was asked the same question by a parent on a day when I had GTR available to try - will it give my 8 year old bad habits? My answer with something like GTR2 is definitely no, but it should also be made clear to kids that the track and the road are two very different places. As Richard Burns answered when being asked if he drove fast on the road, "do you see Linford Christie sprinting to the shops?". So you need to know what you want to get from them, hence GT4 won't always lead to bad habits if you know enough to recognise the game's flaws. In an emergency situation or on track I think the right simulator will help build up good instincts but I'd never advocate purposely pushing a car beyond it's limits on a public road.

On the flip side I wouldn't have spent so much time in such an expensive sport without getting hooked on F1 GP, so as a parent maybe not such a good idea :shock:

And even GTR2 is relatively poor at replicating circuits accurately. Some are better reproduced than others, but they only help me in so far as I know roughly where I'm going and a good driver should be able to learn a circuit to that level in under 5 laps.

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I suppose that flight simulators breed bad pilots, too! :shock:

I always thought video games in general helped coordination and anticipation, but what do I know.

The obvious thing they are ignoring is the question of whether people who would choose to play a racing game are inherently more agressive in their personality (i.e., aggressive people play racing games, not racing games make people aggressive), or already less physically and mentally fit because they are slackers and sit around the television/computer all day . . .

Tony K. :)

 

Esprit S1s #355H & 454H

Esprit S2.2  #324J

1991 Esprit SE

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I've got a logitech force feedback steering wheel with 900degree turning radius. Expensivish but I highly recommend it.

Together with GT4, it feels quite realistic for a game. the load on the steering wheel and transfer of weight under braking is really impressive. The biggest drawback is that there are virtually no risks or consequences to crashing into other cars or off the track which would of course in the real world is what makes racing human.

When weather is terrible or I don't have the time to spare, a few laps cheers me up.

Edited by TSD
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Regarding GT4 I think it has terrible dynamics - try turning off the traction in a powerful rear drive car, accelerate flat out at a bend and it'll still understeer with the rears spinning. My biggest struggle with track novices is that they either charge at bends or fling their car in with way too much speed and scrub to somewhere near the apex. When I tentatively ask why, GT4 is usually the answer.

I must admit I've never found that, I've not touched the game for months though, the cars do tend not to break traction easily but that comes down to one of a few things. Arcade mode (which is differnt to 'campaign') and tyres - the standard selection on all cars are mid range tyres which equates to a soft semi slick rubber...if you down grade the tyres to road spec the car has a lot less traction.

EDIT - just put this on out of curiosity and you can easily oversteer on wheelspin, you have to use road tyres and turn off the traction control and stability (over and understeer) controls - these are both all defaults and pretty hard to change unless you get into the complex side of the game.

esprireeeee.jpg

COOL !!! Never done this before, you can export pics to USB !

This is a snap from the game with everyone's favourite car - loads of over steer on acceleration at the wrong time :shock:

GT4 isn't a simulator though and as someone rightly pointed out there is a BIG difference - I won most of the snow courses by sticking to the barrier with the pedal down and using it to guide me round !!!

Drive a complex course like Yosemite and the game teaches many fundamentals of fast driving, the game also has a very complex driving school built into to demonstrate all sorts of various things that can happen with FF, FR, MR and RR configured cars which is pretty cool. There is a particular section where a fast hill climb dips straight down into a fast left, if you take it too fast your car does not have enough weight on the fronts to steer into the corner etc.

Has anyone played GTA-San Andreas ? lol

Again nothing like a simulator but the car physics in there are very challenging and extremely diverse (depeding on what car you have). It also has a wild form of driving school :shock:

Nothing compares to the real thing or go-karting but it gives you a base to start with as opposed to knowing nothing.

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Drive a complex course like Yosemite and the game teaches many fundamentals of fast driving, the game also has a very complex driving school built into to demonstrate all sorts of various things that can happen with FF, FR, MR and RR configured cars which is pretty cool. There is a particular section where a fast hill climb dips straight down into a fast left, if you take it too fast your car does not have enough weight on the fronts to steer into the corner etc.

I agree totally, it's knowing what to take out of each game. I think it may be a bug with GT4, the lateral G loadings work fine with the rear grip levels (i.e. Clio V6, economy tyres, Nurburgring :shock: ) but it's the longitudinal loading with no subsequent loss of grip that's the issue. The best example is if you try to do a doughnut or a power drift. If I recall, GT3 doesn't have the same problem and is why I went back to it.

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The only thing a computer racing game would be usefull for is to familiarise yourself with the layout of a track you had never been to.

You cant feel any cornering, acceleration and braking forces with them and you dont use any real depth perception .

And of course you dont need any courage to use the game.

Cant beat seat time in a real racing car IMO.

Hi Wayne, whilst I agree with your last sentence I think you're missing the point of the difference between games, (read GT4 imho) and simulators like GPL. I'm part of a modding team on the latter which has released modifications for 1965 GP cars and 1969 GP cars among others, this sim even models the weight of the drivers head as it leans into a corner and the effect of fuel moving in the tanks as it is used.

Add in things like motion platforms such as a Frex Simconmotion, loadcell brakes and fresnel lens to give a perception of depth and you get very much more than just learning the way tracks go.

Whilst the perception of "racing" to most is a ps2 console for a controller, there are many who take this extremely seriously and invest serious money in having a very realistic setup.

Regards

Fred

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On the flip side I wouldn't have spent so much time in such an expensive sport without getting hooked on F1 GP, so as a parent maybe not such a good idea :shock:

And even GTR2 is relatively poor at replicating circuits accurately. Some are better reproduced than others, but they only help me in so far as I know roughly where I'm going and a good driver should be able to learn a circuit to that level in under 5 laps.

I took the opposite view, by the time I got to the point where I could afford to race I had a wife and daughter and decided sim racing was safer :shock:

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of iRacing's laser scanning of real life tracks and BRD's similar efforts for Netkar Pro, hopefully this will resolve any errors in track layouts and set a new standard.

Regards

Fred

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I can donut with the above car but only makes about 1 turn each time...the problem is there is no clutch (it's automatic) so there's no way of larging it and dumping the clutch - I'll see if I can do a movie clip next hehe. OK just checked you can't dump movie files :shock:

I can also power slide although it's REALLY hard with the D-Pad as you have instant lock almost imediatly you have to balance over and under steer with the accelerator/break and pretty much keep the front wheels on lock - as I say you have to remove the stability control to do this or it will stop you and it's not an option that is easily found.

PS: Sport300, only live 20mins from me - when can I book a lesson ? :shock:

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I'm not a game player. I do however own a Playstation one with 'Time Crisis'.

There's nothing i enjoy more than plugging in the gun and shooting hundreds

of baddies. I'm not however, about to take my one of my real rifles out in the

street and shoot that moron that blocks the end of the road with his big plastic

softroader.

I can tell the difference between reality and a computer game or film.

Some people can't. You know, like when some actor plays the bad guy in a soap

opera and people shout names at them in the street. Some people are so stupid

they would grow if you watered them, and are unable to distinquish real life from

just about anything on a screen in front of them.

There must be stacks of supermarket trolleys somewhere needing collecting up...

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I can donut with the above car but only makes about 1 turn each time...the problem is there is no clutch (it's automatic) so there's no way of larging it and dumping the clutch - I'll see if I can do a movie clip next hehe.

PS: Sport300, only live 20mins from me - when can I book a lesson ? :thumbup:

Just dusted off GT4 and you're right, I got different results with different cars but by and large it wasn't as bad as I remembered. To be honest, for something that's meant to be accessible it's not too bad a compromise, it can take ages to really get to grips with GPL and GTR.

So after a u-turn like that, sure you want a lesson :shock: What we need is a good modder to make us a GT1 and GT2 Esprit for GTR2 :shock: Mega impressed with iRacing, just checked out their site - I forgot to mention I played Indycar Racing more than anything bar GP2 as a kid, loved the Papyrus games.

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Just dusted off GT4 and you're right, I got different results with different cars but by and large it wasn't as bad as I remembered. To be honest, for something that's meant to be accessible it's not too bad a compromise, it can take ages to really get to grips with GPL and GTR.

So after a u-turn like that, sure you want a lesson :shock: What we need is a good modder to make us a GT1 and GT2 Esprit for GTR2 :thumbup: Mega impressed with iRacing, just checked out their site - I forgot to mention I played Indycar Racing more than anything bar GP2 as a kid, loved the Papyrus games.

LOL as I say it's not easy to unlock the controls to get it to work - you can't do it 'out of the box'.

As soon as (if not before) I get the GT2 finished....assuming it gets finished....I'm going to need lessons so you're on ! :shock:

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Hi Wayne, whilst I agree with your last sentence I think you're missing the point of the difference between games, (read GT4 imho) and simulators like GPL. I'm part of a modding team on the latter which has released modifications for 1965 GP cars and 1969 GP cars among others, this sim even models the weight of the drivers head as it leans into a corner and the effect of fuel moving in the tanks as it is used.

Add in things like motion platforms such as a Frex Simconmotion, loadcell brakes and fresnel lens to give a perception of depth and you get very much more than just learning the way tracks go.

Whilst the perception of "racing" to most is a ps2 console for a controller, there are many who take this extremely seriously and invest serious money in having a very realistic setup.

Regards

Fred

Sorry Fred, I was under the impression this discussion was about games (like played on your home TV or PC)

I could see some sort of simulator being better (where the whole thing pitches and moves around) involving your sense of movement and ballance.

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but you would still get better results (If you really wanted to develop your driving skills)with a few outings in an relitively inexpensive Kart IMO.

schu_ice_small.jpg

Edited by WayneB
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What we need is a good modder to make us a GT1 and GT2 Esprit for GTR2 :wallbash: Mega impressed with iRacing, just checked out their site - I forgot to mention I played Indycar Racing more than anything bar GP2 as a kid, loved the Papyrus games.

Like this you mean, http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=266905

Have you checked out NetkarPro - there are flaws but it has the best physics currently available imho

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Sorry Fred, I thought this discussion was about games (like played on your home TV or PC)

I could see some sort of simulator being better (where the whole thing pitches and moves around) involving your sense of movement and ballance.

but you would still get better results (If you really wanted to develop your driving skills)with a few outings in an relitively inexpensive Kart IMO.

Hey no problems Wayne, I agree abou the Kart thing, but as an example I work 13 hours a day each day and would not have time to do this after doing all the family stuff at weekends. Having something at home that is very realistic and being able to start and stop it at short notice is invaluable. As one of my friends says, the cars and tracks may be simulated but the (on-line) racing is real.

:wallbash:

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but you would still get better results (If you really wanted to develop your driving skills)with a few outings in an relitively inexpensive Kart IMO.

By and large I'd agree, but in some cases simulators can offer something reality can't. Visualisation is an important part of being able to make yourself faster, but for it to be effective you have to visualise doing the right thing. So for example if a driver has a mental block about not quite carrying enough speed into a corner, chances are they won't be able to visualise it correctly. A simulator removes the fear constraint that may be holding them back (even in a kart), and once they've done it a few times on screen the visualisation process then becomes easier and may subsequently lead to them doing it for real. But I'm nitpicking :wallbash:

I'm just grabbing NetkarPro, can't believe I missed it!

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Karts are great - they teach the concept of driving smooth and steady, racing lines and so on but they have many many differences to driving a real car on a track. Where to start....suspension, brakes, body roll, drive train (no live rear axle), visual guides, speed, acceleration, pedal box are all things that are vastly different from driving a real car - they are chalk and cheese in that respect.

I suppose the military doesn't spend millions on simulators for nothing either :wallbash:

And before anyone says simulators are different than computer games, my boss at BAE wondered how I could work through an F-16 and Eurofighter's HUD when I went for an interview there...

EF20002SCWik.jpg

The virtual cockpit on the game is identical, even down to the missing buttons left off the multifunction displays for later life updates of the aircraft.

DID who produced TFX and EF2000 also wrote the software for the real simulators based on the game iirc, I know they definatly had a defence contract, the Grippen simulator at Farnborough had exactly the same graphics engine, and as the tutors say - "if you can fly this you can fly the real thing". There is no be all and end all but used correctly a good PC game is easily comparable to a full simulator.

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Virtual racing seems to lead to aggressive driving and a propensity for risk taking, particularly among men, say the German authors.

:wub: The author probably is about 70 years old, drives a Mercedes E200 D, has a self knit toiletpaper cover and a Wackeldackel in the rearwindscreen ! :whistle:

Men who had been playing the games were subsequently more likely to race and overtake other road drivers, yet had one second slower reaction times.

-- and on the drivers side, on the inside of the door frame I found this funny technical device :

:wallbash::):respect:

No fret, any european would affirm, 95% of the German can not drive anyway ! If Germans were to make aliving off driving, we would probably still live in caves.....

Olaf S400 project www.esprits4.de

__________________________________

shapeimage_1.jpg

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Karts are great - they teach the concept of driving smooth and steady, racing lines and so on but they have many many differences to driving a real car on a track. Where to start....suspension, brakes, body roll, drive train (no live rear axle), visual guides, speed, acceleration, pedal box are all things that are vastly different from driving a real car - they are chalk and cheese in that respect.

I suppose the military doesn't spend millions on simulators for nothing either :rofl:

And before anyone says simulators are different than computer games, my boss at BAE wondered how I could work through an F-16 and Eurofighter's HUD when I went for an interview there...

EF20002SCWik.jpg

The virtual cockpit on the game is identical, even down to the missing buttons left off the multifunction displays for later life updates of the aircraft.

DID who produced TFX and EF2000 also wrote the software for the real simulators based on the game iirc, I know they definatly had a defence contract, the Grippen simulator at Farnborough had exactly the same graphics engine, and as the tutors say - "if you can fly this you can fly the real thing". There is no be all and end all but used correctly a good PC game is easily comparable to a full simulator.

Actually, driving a Kart is about as close you can come to the dynamics of driving an automobile (in the real world).

My old Villiers 9E 210 cc Zip Kart (which I raced before I had a real car) actually had a clutch , brake and accelerator pedal in the same position as a conventional car (only the shifter or gear lever was different, being mounted on the steering column, much like cars of the fifties).

A kart reacts to the same throttle /steering braking imputs as a car (but in a more direct posative manner)

It does seem though that playing simulations or games imparts alot of (false?)confidece into some people, as its pretty much impossible to get hurt playing one, so maybe these types are importing the false reality imparted by the game into the real world?

top%20gun.jpg

Edited by WayneB
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I must admit, kart are what got me started in wanting to do track cars, they are bloody great and I have had many fun outings with the Esprit guys. I agree the principals of track drivng are very similar to karts, I got a huge amount of exerience with them and most of the best car drivers I know are the best karters as well - the transition between karts and formula x racing is well known (sure Johnny Herbert was a kart champion at one time).

However as I already said there are HUGE differences between the two, suspension, brakes, wheel base, tyres etc

It does seem though that playing simulations or games imparts alot of (false?)confidece into some people, as its pretty much impossible to get hurt playing one, so maybe these types are importing the false reality imparted by the game into the real world?

That totally depends on the person, I've used simulators and games in the past to give me an idea about things, experiment with suspension, brake bias, gears and so forth and so on. However anyone under the dilusion they can play a game like GT4 and be a racing driver in the same day is clearly stupid enough to get into a real car and drive like a tit anyways. People were also saying SatNav had to be banned becuase some dozy sod drove their Merc into a river following it's directions - I've said it once, say it 1,000,000x more it's all down to common sense.

Simulators are a tool to understand things better without taking expensie risks - I learned the fundamentals on how to fly my RC heli on the computer, crunched the computer model many times but leanred from mistakes and I haven't crunched the real thing yet.

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