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  • Gold FFM

Sprinklers have been mandatory for years in new build resi over 10 floors (Ithink without checking) (see Approved Document B), however they rarely get installed as the developers employ consulants to determine a fire plan "proving" safe evacuation without and hey presto get the requirement waived.

I remember one elongated and heated exchange. Few years ago with a "building efficiency consultant" who ended up calling me all sorts of names and threats over my refusal to accept his plans to install combustible cladding on a high rise block of flats. I eventually won the argument which ended up by using a rock wool insulation instead of polystyrene. I noted today that his company had since ceased trading.

@Dan E, sounds like you share my pain on ignorance around $ systems :wallbash:

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A Lotus is for driving, pork is for breakfast.

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House systems are relatively cheap but for a high rise it needs storage big tanks ( mains water cannot keep up with the demand) and pumps and secondary pumps plus maintenance.  I have had this co

What I dont understand is that tests on the cladding seemed to be failing every hour if you get regular news updates.  If that is the case why is this stuff made, why is it sold, why is it used (no ma

If you are referring to Composite Panels, Most new buildings I see now are PIR/PUR/Phenolic or rock wool, however polystyrene panels were made by the major manufacturers in the past and remain prevale

  • Gold FFM

Colin, I am a little out of touch with residential these days. I hope your are right. I definitely done a 10 odd storey building in East London (Old Ford turn off on the A12) a few years ago, funnily enough I drove right past it today it never had a sprinkler system. It also amazingly had only one parking space for an electric car and had a biomass boiler which they turned off the day of hand over and is now fed by gas! 

I am 100% behind you, dry risers only work if there is a fire compartment to let the FB get there. I did not realise that the London tower only had one staircase until tonight , I mean WTF! 

I am a very simple sparky, but I really give a shit about this stuff, we lose many a contract because I won't cut corners and because of the programme, because I am responsible ultimately. 

One of these days and hopefully soon someone will tell me how the fuck AOV's actually save lives as apposed to a sprinkler. 

 

 

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  • Gold FFM
6 hours ago, Dan E said:

 I am a very simple sparky, but I really give a shit about this stuff, we lose many a contract because I won't cut corners and because of the programme, because I am responsible ultimately. 

I came across a company post on Facebook this week in one of the electrician forums. He claimed his company did inspect and test from £6.50 a circuit on commercial. The exchange got somewhat heated - that's simple not possible safely no matter what - but he had some software that revolutionised it ?

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  • Gold FFM

2010 Amendment to  Approved Document B: "Sprinkler Protection in Flats: Sprinkler systems should be provided in blocks of flats exceeding 30m in height."

However, as I can see from what is actually happening this is rarely complied with. It is the same for most building regulations as they don't keep pace with changing construction practices, so provided you can make a case to explain why it shouldn't apply to your development it isn't enforced.

 

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A Lotus is for driving, pork is for breakfast.

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  • Gold FFM
7 hours ago, Dan E said:

One of these days and hopefully soon someone will tell me how the fuck AOV's actually save lives as apposed to a sprinkler. 

 

They are just to provide a little more time for people to evacuate while they can still see. A few years ago I was at Moreton in the Marsh (Fire Brigade training centre) and had a demonstration of controlling the smoke layer by use of vents, they are actually extremely effective. Also live demonstration of $ head going off.

(Basically we were stood in a building and they kept setting fire to it to demonstrate various things). As for chucking gas cylinders onto fires, that was interesting too :shock:.

By the way, other misconception. $ systems are generally there to control a fire - not put it out. ie keep it contained until the brigade arrive and finish the job, (although in fairness, they often do put it out)

$ = sprinklers by the way - I'm so used to just using that I keep forgetting to change it here, apologies.

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A Lotus is for driving, pork is for breakfast.

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It's incredible how big builders, developers, councils and housing associations can just ride roughshot straight through all these regulations with ease by arguing risk assessment etc. 

Utter pishe.

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  • Gold FFM

There is an emergency review by government. Would be interesting to see the list of excuses they come up with that negates the need to rehouse the people living in the tower blocks nearby that are identical 

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  • Gold FFM

Awful tragedy.  Planning rules seem to be the original rules that were made for breaking, bending or ignoring by those with a vested interest on both sides.

If they did use combustible cladding and if it was an "inferior" or or unapproved product that was used then I hope EVERYONE involved and culpable in that decision is jailed. The only way we will stop this happening is by holding the individuals who made the decisions fully to account. 

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Just now, C8RKH said:

If they did use combustible cladding and if it was an "inferior" or or unapproved product that was used then I hope EVERYONE involved and culpable in that decision is jailed. The only way we will stop this happening is by holding the individuals who made the decisions fully to account. 

I can discuss more openly with you next month if you like, unfortunately because of work I am severely restricted as to what is appropriate (or acceptable) for me to post on here so am having to be quite careful. I can do 10 minutes on the above statement alone. :rant:

 

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Having worked on high rise flats/apartments,with multiracial,tenants/owners," no i am not racist"

But many have very large pans of hot oil on hobs, which cover control knobs on the hob,letting gas through burners

Rather than check on the cladding,check inside! rumours circulating, that a fridge caught alight!

It would take many hundred of degrees of heat to set the cladding ablaze "which is on the outside!"

i know builders make holes for cables, vents etc, But the fire started from the inside!

NO i do not install cladding,  Dare i ask could a bomb making cell, caused an explosion ? again i am NOT racist more being  realistic in these present times

Just my own thoughts,      

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  • Gold FFM

Colin I happily stand corrected on AOV,s it is not my specialty we only wire them and leave for others to second fix and commission. I still stand by passive is fine, if managed, but it is so easy to compromise. If people understood what smashing through a fire barrier actually meant then it might be different. 

Barry £6.50 a circuit WTF!!!! So the test sheet says, LIM, LIM, LIM. I have spent hours just trying to find a circuit let alone test it. 

I really am hoping this makes things change then at least something has come out of it. 

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  • Gold FFM
1 hour ago, temple said:

It would take many hundred of degrees of heat to set the cladding ablaze "which is on the outside!"      

Sorry, but this is just wrong. I suggest you grab a match and a sheet of polystyrene. Once alight it melts and you end up with a liquid fire.

2 things to consider 1) stopping a fire starting in the first place 2) stopping it from spreading if it does. Your comments are fair in respect of point 1), but point 2) is of equal importance.

See video of the Memoz Tower in France I use it in presentations as you can see the very minor fire which starts this and you can see the molten polystyrene drip from the building:

 

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Sorry never heard any experts mention Polystyrene used behind cladding, i read it was Polyurethane 

Likewise you can put a match to any flammable material ! it would burn  

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  • Gold FFM

I wasn't suggesting it was Polystyrene in Grenell, I am deliberately talking in general terms. Polystyrene is common place and is the worst, but is also the cheapest, hence common.

I have no specific information on Grenell, other than that available publicly from the manufacturers literature of the suggested panel supplier in the news, which seems to suggest 2 different possibilities neither of which are either polystyrene or polyurethane. Often specifications get changed so only time and those with access to the correct information will determine the truth of what was and wasn't present and in the interim I shall not speculate on the specific case as it would be wrong to do so.

A Lotus is for driving, pork is for breakfast.

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I've been designing/ detailing cladding for 29 years and have never used or come across polystyrene filled aluminium cladding before in the UK. Because of the polystyrene, I assumed it had been outlawed. I don't know of a UK company making such products as they all use Polyurethane (PUR) or Polyisocyanurate (PIR) or mineral filled due the fire retardant materials. They may have sourced the cladding from outside UK or even outside the EU.

Also each floor should have a fire check or fire barrier so fire can't spread up the cavity. There are many different ways to achieve this.

As a draughtsman though, I never get a say into what I detail, I have to follow my clients instructions, which is the worrying part! They are a subcontractor to a main contractor then the engineer and the architect. As you can see, I am way down the food chain. Guess who the finger would be pointed at first?

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  • Gold FFM

Police have been on the BBC saying they will look into every stage of the process.

hmmm - here comes a fiddle like amazons tax bill. The smallest and most easily bankrupted company's gonna cop the blame. I reckon the guy who clipped the guttering on is done for

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Every party involved will (should) have been insured.

Every party's insurance company will obviously vigorously fight any claim against their client (themselves).

When blame is eventually apportioned that insurance company will (eventually) settle the claim and the negligent party will face insurance premium increases that will necessitate foreclosure of that business, as premiums will be unaffordable. 

That process will take years, I've been through a good part of that process but retired before it was (if it ever was) completed. 

By that time it will be yesterday's news and of little relevance to all but those directly affected - a bit like the Hillsborough and Bradford disasters.

Some culpable individuals may face charges which again will be defended and fought against for many years.

Sadly time will cause this to fall away from the headlines, and something else will replace it in the headlines. That's how it is. Wrong but so inevitable.

So saddened by so (too) many recent horrific tragedies howsoever caused. No one deserves their life to be taken unnaturally. 

Here, London Bridge/Borough Market, Westminster, Manchester, Madrid, Nice, Paris, Brussells, Berlin, New York, Boston, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan, Israel, Libya, Ukraine, Tunisia,  Northern Ireland, and so so many more. It's all terror to someone.

Life is so precious, but also so fragile. Too horrific to comprehend sometimes.

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Dave.

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  • Gold FFM
13 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

The man that did the spec - end of.

I would have thought the right answer would be "the man who approved the spec" - at the end of the day the responsibility and the accountability lies with the approver, unless they were lied to / material information was hidden/not disclosed.  I have a strong suspicion that somewhere in this sorry tale there will be a "lowest price" statement...

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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So the news here is saying that hundreds of people are being relocated from similar buildings with the same cladding and that the police are considering criminal charges.

Any truth to this or just our media playing 'Let's start a rumour.'

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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  • Gold FFM

Labour borough.... I just wonder how much of this is an attempt to cause instability within government. Seems like a huge knee jerk reaction.

what I found most strange - was they have now found a load of brand new flats for social housing to put some of the towers occupants in. Amazing what they can do when they actually try! The housing policy in the country is a disgrace

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The BBC interviewed a member of the tenants association from one of the affected Plymouth tower blocks last night and asked him if he was worried or frightened living there. The answer was a big smile and a 'NO' stating that the tenants were more than happy with the actions the council were taking / planning to resolve this. Guess the South West is a little more laid back (or should I say sensible) than everywhere else.

 

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