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Nick

Supercharged V6 - anyone tried water injection?

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As this engine doesn't have an intercooler, you can't really run a smaller pulley without high temps. So I've been exploring the idea of using water injection squirted in before the supercharger to reducel inlet temps. Has anyone here tried this?

A company appears to sell them, but no ideas on how it fits. Would like to hear real world results if there are any!

 

https://www.snowperformance.eu/en/water-injection/boost-cooler/lotus-evora-3-5-400-298-kw-117729

 

 

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Water injection can be used on any car. Supercharger type doesn't matter. 

Anyway, this topic was covered at length (by me!) in a thread a while back and I discussed the benefits the Exige Sport 380 would have of using water injection because the car heat soaks and loses power after a couple of laps or on a warm-ish day due to having no intercooler or method to reduce intake temps into the car. Read through the thread and you will see my experience using water injection on my car, photos of it installed in a Lotus, a nice graph showing the benefits, etc. It's the best choice for the Exige and probably even the Elise Cup 250 line of cars that don't have an intercooler or charge cooler. And the AEM kit is only about £350 and easy as chips to install. 

 

 

Edited by cib24

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Would have thought adding water before our type of supercharger - with water being generally found to be incompressible - would be a crap idea. This kit also states centrifugal chargers only.  And that’s where the OP suggests this kit is adding it. But I clearly don’t have your experience of it, so I’m just speculating. 

Edited by trcm
Add that website says centrifugal only

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Yes, I would add it after. You can add it pre-supercharger or pre-turbo but then you risk the droplets destroying the blades inside the compressors over time. Besides, it is better to do it after as you will cool the compressed heated air that the supercharger makes. 

Where to locate your water injection nozzle advice. Talks about turbos but it is literally the same concept. 

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/content/20-where-to-locate-your-alcohol-water-injection-nozzle

TurboEngine.gif

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Thanks for the link @cib24, interesting reading. The nozzle would need to be before the supercharger unless anyone has some magical way to insert it after the SC, it mounts directly to the lower inlet manifold, you'd need 6 nozzles for that and butchering of the LIM, something I'm not prepared to do.

So I'm assuming no-one has tried it on the V6's?

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Big block V8 guys that have roots blowers very similar to what are on the Lotus supercharged cars run spacers right after the blower and inlet manifold in which they create a water injection hole to screw the nozzle in.

This is kind of an example but obviously not exact. Shouldn't be too expensive to have a machine shop machine a little spacer like that between the blower and manifold that you can bung a nozzle into, and it's easily reversible.

40073-5.jpg?1435587734

 

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If you have a V6 S, the best upgrade has to be the TVS 1900 sc. It is a complete no brainer to me B-)

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On 9/9/2017 at 08:49, cib24 said:

Big block V8 guys that have roots blowers very similar to what are on the Lotus supercharged cars run spacers right after the blower and inlet manifold in which they create a water injection hole to screw the nozzle in.

This is kind of an example but obviously not exact. Shouldn't be too expensive to have a machine shop machine a little spacer like that between the blower and manifold that you can bung a nozzle into, and it's easily reversible.

40073-5.jpg?1435587734

 

I've emailed hangar111 to see if they can source the revised lower intake manifold that Komotec have made to enable fitment of a chargecooler. Although I've also read from BOE in the states that the TVS1320 isn't powerful enough to warrant it. They reckon the charger only makes 4 to 6 psi?  Does anyone know if that's correct? I haven't had time to plumb in a boost gauge yet to see.

I like the sandwich plate idea though... thanks!

TVS1900 - at what price though? I'm guessing it's £5k plus from Oz. And then what's the limits of the standard engine? My TVS1320 equipped 2GRFE is fitted into my stripped out trackday MR2, weight is circa 1000-1100 kg, goes like stink as it is!

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11 hours ago, Nick said:

I've emailed hangar111 to see if they can source the revised lower intake manifold that Komotec have made to enable fitment of a chargecooler. Although I've also read from BOE in the states that the TVS1320 isn't powerful enough to warrant it. They reckon the charger only makes 4 to 6 psi?  Does anyone know if that's correct? I haven't had time to plumb in a boost gauge yet to see.

The CNC inlet manifold would be disproportionately expensive, it's a chunk of the cost of the EX460 kit.  If you were doing the manifold you might as well do the rest of the chargecooler.

Dave

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9 hours ago, Hangar 111 said:

The CNC inlet manifold would be disproportionately expensive, it's a chunk of the cost of the EX460 kit.  If you were doing the manifold you might as well do the rest of the chargecooler.

Dave

That would be my plan. Any idea if they have plans to offer a LIM with charge cooler kit? But excluding the rest of the stuff. 

Edited by Nick

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Interesting topic! I searched for such conversions last year with no succes, while having my fiends Aquamist installtion on his Fiat Punto Turbo some 10 years ago in mind. It worked just terrific. For the Evora S and Exige V6's it should in my opinion be one of the most clever upgrades.

Now when water injection is hot topic again, since BMW introduced it on their M4 GTS, I accidently got in touch with it professionally as well. Bosch have presented their WaterBoost ( http://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/highlights/powertrain-and-electrified-mobility/water-injection/ ) and it is considred to be one option for reaching the HC emission limits during coming Real Driving Emissions (RDE) homologation, when fuel enrichment will become impossible. However, from what I understand, no one expect full commercialisation for another 2-3 years from now, so rudimentary bolt-on kits will still be the way to go. And they are probably good enough.

Regarding the principle for the installation, adding water before the compressor will significantly increase the compressor efficiency. If then the water is still below its boiling point, maximal combustion efficeiency gain will occur when the vaporistaion takes place inside the cylinder. I believe this will be the case given the operational envelope of the twin screw compressor. Right? For a turbocharger, reaching significantly higher temperatures, the water droplets may vaporize at more or less any boost pressure reached. The final question is then how the twin screw supercharger can handle the water injection. In general volumetric compressors (screws, pistons, scrolls) are insensitive to droplets from an errosion point of view. However excessive water amount as well as agressive water types may be an issue. Centrifugal compressors, such as in a turbo charger, should not be exposed to droplets since errosion will kill it.

It would be interesting to get freedback from someone who have operated such a pre-compressor injected system for some time.

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Here are a couple more other useful links. This MR2 site doesn’t think that it is possible to use WI on a 2GR with a supercharger:

http://www.mr2oc.com/188-v6-mr2-forum/664993-water-injection-s-ced-2grs.html

(It is worth noting that that applies to an Eaton sc, not a Harrop. I don’t know if their construction is the same).

However, monkeywrenchracing sell a WI kit for the Evora S:

http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product-category/lotusevora/evoraforcedinductionturbosupercharger/

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Jonny, can you drop the name of the specific thread in the MR2 forum you refer to? When you click the link, you just get a long list of threads.

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I've now edited my original post so the link should point towards the relevant thread. 

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On 9/20/2017 at 10:04, Bravo73 said:

Here are a couple more other useful links. This MR2 site doesn’t think that it is possible to use WI on a 2GR with a supercharger:

http://www.mr2oc.com/188-v6-mr2-forum/664993-water-injection-s-ced-2grs.html

(It is worth noting that that applies to an Eaton sc, not a Harrop. I don’t know if their construction is the same).

However, monkeywrenchracing sell a WI kit for the Evora S:

http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product-category/lotusevora/evoraforcedinductionturbosupercharger/

The supercharges used by Lotus from Harrop (S) or Edelbrook (400) are Eaton licensed TVS supercharges.  Eaton sells the rotors and licenses the housing design to 3rd parties that fabricate the housing/ manifold setup. 

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On 11/13/2017 at 10:02, Swiss380Cup said:

@The Pits you're definitely right about going for a factory charged cool.....so much potential with this engine......the thing is...... I've just spent "some" money on my 380 Cup (had it for 3 ½ months only....),and thought I could do something different :):):)..... I'll have the winter months to think about it, and will waite for the detailed price for Switzerland of the Cup 430, which should be shortly available....and see what deal I can have with my dealer.. he'll love me more if I buy a 3rd Lotus in 2 ½ years......my banker won't......but I'd rather spend the tuning money on the new one, that's what reason tells me.... but we love to be un-reasonable... a 380 Cup KT Ex 460 could be quite "stunning".....or maybe I just enjoy my car and waite for the 1st 430 Cup to hit the swiss dealers .....in the end if you drive your car you don't need another one.... you just simply enjoy it......

 

On 11/13/2017 at 10:08, The Pits said:

Only trouble is with KT460 is that you might as well start with a V6S. A modded 380 Cup needs to go further. You need and the car deserves 500. Then we are talking factory 430 money I'm sure. Still. No-one's catching a 500 Cup!

Good thing with the 430 Cup is that there is no rush with unlimited production. You can take your time and make the move when its right (or not at all of course!).

I'm going to say it again like I'm preaching to the choir. Buy a water injection kit. Figure out how to install it, get a remap for more boost, timing advance and whatever else so you can see 450+ bhp and you will be faster than a 430 all day long and probably more reliable than running with the charge cooler because you can keep temps even cooler and you won't lose performance on a hot day because the 380 Sport and Cup are always heatsoaking due to having no intercooler or charge cooler installed. Plus, you won't weigh as much. Add an aftermarket transmission cooler if you want as well as those are cheap too. Add another one for the diff while you're at it. 

Water injection kit: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/122557783194?chn=ps&dispctrl=1&adgroupid=47842945425&rlsatarget=pla-380312390811&abcId=1129946&adtype=pla&merchantid=110380929&poi=&googleloc=9045997&device=c&campaignid=974959912&crdt=0

Oil cooler kits: https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performance/oil-coolers-fittings

Voila. About £500 for parts, a bit more for labour if you can't install them yourself and another £500-1,000 to tune the car for 450+ bhp and the ultimate "380" Cup which looks better than the 430 anyway. 

I just made 398 hp and 360 lb ft. of torque on my RX-7 running high boost on my twins thanks to water injection. Technically, one of the highest dynos ever on a RX-7 with the factory twin turbos.  Factory is 276hp and 232 lb/ft. so I'm pushing a lot more boost through it than it started out with and I can only do that because I have water to keep intake and exhaust temps in check. 

Edited by cib24

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@cib24 Yes I remember well what you wrote and  I've looked into it, but to start with I would need to find someone to fit it properly into my car... but honestly I didn't investigate it properly.....

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5 minutes ago, Swiss380Cup said:

@cib24 Yes I remember well what you wrote and  I've looked into it, but to start with I would need to find someone to fit it properly into my car... but honestly I didn't investigate it properly.....

Nearly any trained mechanic or tuner can do it for you. They don't have to be Lotus guys but the Lotus specialists out here could do it. Hell, I bet Bell & Colvill could do it. The instructions in the kit are super clear and easy to understand. it's only a couple of wires, mounting the pump somewhere and also the reservoir in the boot. You could run it without any tuning but if you wanted to push for more power beyond stock levels then run 500cc/min or 1000cc/min (both of those injectors are included in the kit) and then get it remapped by whomever does Lotus remaps in the UK. 

Oil cooler kits are even easier. One line from the transmission to the oil cooler mounted on the front of the car (usually attached to the radiator), and a return line back to the transmission. Diff is the same concept. 

Edited by cib24

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2 minutes ago, cib24 said:

 

@cib24.... well I have to find someone here in Geneva, maybe one of those fanatics of japanese cars :):) I'll look into it again....

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2 minutes ago, Swiss380Cup said:

@cib24.... well I have to find someone here in Geneva, maybe one of those fanatics of japanese cars :):) I'll look into it again....

Oops! Yes, okay Geneva. I don't know the local market but literally anyone can do it. Japanese guys like water, VAG guys do too and so do guys that like American muscle. Find a Honda, Skyline, Supra, RX-7, Dodge Viper, Corvette, VW, Audi, etc. type of specialist shop and call them up and ask them about installing water in your car. Or just ask the Lotus guys over there. Surely there is a specialist if you are worried about keeping your service records all Lotus-related?

Remember though, water is really easy to remove when you want to stop using it. And no one will know you ever had it installed if you do get rid of it one day (but you won't). 

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