Evora GT430

[SFO]

the GT430 Sport was inevitable, they were never going to develop so many new parts just for 60 cars.

 

[Mister_Tad]

14 minutes ago, TheKevlarKid said:

Exactly. Let's just say you've never had a lotus before, you see the new limited edition 430 announced and decide now is the time to try one out. You place your order and the excitement starts of waiting for it to arrive. However, before the first one is even built and delivered to the customer there is another car announced which is all but the same and not limited, sorry but your not only going to piss off regular customers but the new ones also... wonder how many other order have been cancelled this morning?

Neither McLaren nor Porsche are vastly different and just look at how they get lapped up.

If anyone is buying a car thinking it will always be the latest, greatest and fastest (limited or not), and gets upset when a newer and better model comes out, the first question I'd ask is how did a 10 year-old gather enough money to buy a car in the first place.

Neither Lotus nor McLaren nor Porsche are in the business of making collectors items, they're in the business of making cars. If they can crank out a few strictly limited halo models then it's all good business for upping the desirability factor for the rest of them, but nobody should get upset when something better/different/unlimited/cheaper comes along.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Mister_Tad

[TheKevlarKid]

Sorry I don't follow P or M that closely.  Do they announce the next model before they've even started building the previous one?

[TheKevlarKid]

12 minutes ago, SFO said:

the GT430 Sport was inevitable, they were never going to develop so many new parts just for 60 cars.

 

I agree but get the first 60 built and out to the customers, then look to offer it on a wider basis... too late to piss customers off then and no chance of orders being dropped, they may not want either now!

[Mister_Tad]

I can't say I've ever cared enough to scrutinise the timelines all that much, but almost certainly.

Porsche have a habit of announcing new models that nobody can even buy. If you're talking about dick moves, 918 owners for first refusal on the Turbo S Exclusive, by the time the model made it to press, you could no longer buy one. I have a friend that had a build slot for a GT3-RS and paid a deposit. When his slot came up and he went to pay the next 30%, Porsche (a main dealer) said he could still have the car, but the price went up by £100k.

 

Sour grapes from having ordered an exclusive and limited model, only for the manufacturer to allow the unwashed masses to buy a rough equivalent shortly thereafter, is just naiive.

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Mister_Tad

[JayEmm]

Even by Lotus' own standards this announcement is an anomoly. I am struggling to see the logic.

The Sport 410's problem was a huge delay between announcement and production, which made the 430's introduction seem a bit early. The actual announcements were over a year apart, that is fine.

BUT this new one makes almost no sense at all, especially when the "limited" run still has cars available. It isnt like they were surprised with demand as with the Cup 380....

Of course, the car could be the best thing Lotus have ever made (and might well be)... but to announce a new car before even the press have driven the last one. I don't get it.

There is another consequence of prices shooting up - something I have had to explain to a lot of people new to the brand. Newer cars being much more expensive than the old ones also makes depreciation look worse than it is. And that puts people off.

[TheKevlarKid]

Someone buys them, they obviously don't build enough...but I very much doubt they announce a newer car than the one that isnt even on the production line yet!

[Mister_Tad]

Are you awaiting delivery of a GT430, or are you hypothetically upset?

 

I'd be interested in the individuals from the former camp weighing in - I'm not in those shoes, but if I was I can imagine whilst there would be a "hmm what if" if I had the option, I don't think I'd be irked in the slightest.

[Gashead1105]

Gav has owned more Lotus' than I've had hot dinners but I don't think he has the GT430 on order. There is though a thoroughly hacked off former orderer who posted a couple of pages back.

I can't help wondering if this is someone at Lotus having a 'fat fingered' moment.

[cbaileyuk]

53 minutes ago, Mister_Tad said:

Back on topic though, I won't be surprised if we see lots and lots of decisions that are unpopular with Lotus fans over the next few years. Fact of the matter is, Lotus fans haven't been enough to prevent the company from circling the drain for quite some time, so time to appeal to others. This may mean losing some die-hards along the way, but if it means Lotus stays afloat for years to come, it can't be bad.

Appealing to other fans is not based purely on upping the price though. When you approach a new market on cost terms, you need something that appears properly new to old and new followers.

When the market generally knows that the powerplant, drivetrain and chassis is the same but the prices have gone up - that doesn't make much sense to that market - particularly when two out of those three items are the fruits of other's labour. These price increases need to be controlled and in line with tangible changes.

If our car's successors double in price and were ground up redesigns, I'd completely get it, completely. But they are not and the biggest change I see is the price. I expect this is why we keep hearing people make reference to McL and Porsche. 

 

[TheKevlarKid]

No I don't have an order in. Upset? Only for how lotus are portraying themselves. They shouldn't have put a limit on the 430 and just released both together, all would have been well.

The names should have been the other way round and both priced the same. With the sport model you get the aero kit and radio/aircon delete as options, with the GT model you get those as standard but no aero and choice of tranny. Simple, fair and appealing...

 

You've heard Anthonyyules response above, he has/had an order in, what more do you need to hear?

[Mister_Tad]

6 minutes ago, cbaileyuk said:

Appealing to other fans is not based purely on upping the price though. When you approach a new market on cost terms, you need something that appears properly new to old and new followers.

When the market generally knows that the powerplant, drivetrain and chassis is the same but the prices have gone up - that doesn't make much sense to that market - particularly when two out of those three items are the fruits of other's labour. These price increases need to be controlled and in line with tangible changes.

If our car's successors double in price and were ground up redesigns, I'd completely get it, completely. But they are not and the biggest change I see is the price. I expect this is why we keep hearing people make reference to McL and Porsche. 

 

You say that... and it shouldn't... but I'm not sure that's true in all cases.

There are plenty of products in the automotive world and otherwise, where the cost is what makes the product desirable. Yes, we get a spec sheet with cars so that lets us do a bit better job of buying with our brains, but think about this - how many people own a Ferrari because it's an excellent machine, and how many people own a Ferrari because they want to drive around and make sure strangers know they have the financial fortitude to spend the thick end of £200k on a car?

5 minutes ago, TheKevlarKid said:

No I don't have an order in. Upset? Only for how lotus are portraying themselves. They shouldn't have put a limit on the 430 and just released both together, all would have been well.

 

You've heard Anthonyyules response above, he has/had an order in, what more do you need to hear?

No doubt they should have, but I'm not sure there's much I know about Lotus's marketing prowess that would lead me to believe they've thought it through in a great deal of depth.

I hadn't heard the response, actually, but I'll go look for it now.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Mister_Tad

[anthonyyule]

23 minutes ago, Mister_Tad said:

Sour grapes from having ordered an exclusive and limited model, only for the manufacturer to allow the unwashed masses to buy a rough equivalent shortly thereafter, is just naiive.

 

"shortly afterwards" - well, for me - shortly afterwards was approximately 4 hours after I submitted my order form. Which - I will reiterate - I was told HAD to be submitted that day so that Lotus could start allocating the exact number of parts required to fulfil their orders. Quote.

So... I'm more than happy with the concept that Lotus will continue to release subsequent models... but even by Lotus standards I think you would have to agree that 4 hours from order form to new model is beyond the pale. And if 4 hours is too subjective for you - how about we rewind to last Thursday when Lotus opened its doors to GT430 customers to come and have a look around the Press Car...... 6 days elapsed between then and the announcement of a new model which was not mentioned (or openly dismissed) when we were in attendance at the factory.

and by "rough equivalent" what you actually mean is EXACTLY THE SAME - minus the spoiler/ splitter and slightly narrower wheels (which can you can option back in for £2k). I would accept rough equivalent...... but.... the interior is identical/ the chassis (suspension and brakes) are identical/ the engine mods are identical - the bodywork (minus the front wheel louvres and spoiler/ splitter) are identical.

£8K cheaper - none limited run.

Edited September 7, 2017 by anthonyyule

[The Pits]

It's not a new model it's the same car without aero parts for £8k less. Giving it a different name has clearly confused everyone. Not the smartest move.

But surely this whole mess has been created out of some attempt to honour the deal and limited status of the original GT430? Would it not have pissed off the GT430 customers more if the 'new' one was limited production also?

 

[Mister_Tad]

Burn... Has Lotus presented alternative options, or willing to listed to why you might feel a little bit burned? Would you change out if you could? Are you upset, or just feel a bit like you didn't an option you should have had?

(apologies if these answers are hidden in a previous response, going back to find them now)

[TheKevlarKid]

2 minutes ago, The Pits said:

But surely this whole mess has been created out of some attempt to honour the deal and limited status of the original GT430?

 

Nail on the head.

[anthonyyule]

2 minutes ago, The Pits said:

It's not a new model it's the same car without aero parts for £8k less. Giving it a different name has clearly confused everyone. Not the smartest move.

But surely this whole mess has been created out of some attempt to honour the deal and limited status of the original GT430? Would it not have pissed off the GT430 customers more if the 'new' one was limited production also?

 

I cant see how making 99% of the GT430 now available as standard production would make owners of the original GT430 happy?

Would owners of the GTE been happy if Lotus had released a standard production version with a slightly less aggressive rear wing and sold it for less money?

3 minutes ago, The Pits said:

It's not a new model it's the same car without aero parts for £8k less. Giving it a different name has clearly confused everyone. Not the smartest move.

And as it is the same model without aero..... why not just release both at the same time and give customers the choice? Id have been more than happy for a standard production of 1 car with the choice of road going or track derived options. The whole 60 cars Limit worldwide and then subsequent general release of virtually the same car only weeks afterwards for less money is seriously frustrating.

[anthonyyule]

4 minutes ago, Mister_Tad said:

Burn... Has Lotus presented alternative options, or willing to listed to why you might feel a little bit burned? Would you change out if you could? Are you upset, or just feel a bit like you didn't an option you should have had?

(apologies if these answers are hidden in a previous response, going back to find them now)

I have listed my feelings above... but yes - pretty much all of the above.

Lotus have gone to ground. Nobody prepared to talk. So no one has offered me options or called to discuss why I might feel burned.

Would I change out for the Sport? - I don't know if I would. I quite like the shape of the original GT430. However - I do strongly feel that more effort could have been made to differentiate both models to keep the desirability high for both.

I'm a bit upset.... it very much looks like Lotus knew all this when I was in their presence last Thursday when we were invited to view the GT430.... and when asked about future cars this was completely dismissed. Had they talked about the option of a non-winged version I think many of us would have been even more excited tbh. Would have also been nice to have been told about the auto before our Order Form had to be submitted too.

But yes.... its an attitude and strategy thing. Long term Lotus fan.... haven't had my head turned by anything else (call me a fanboy if you like) and should be an easy sell for the Group. I'm a grown up and understand implicitly how business works. I would have been thankful for the honest conversation with Lotus so I could have made an informed decision. Not feel like information was being withheld (and to what end?)

[TheKevlarKid]

Just at a guess...

Pre orders of 430 haven't been quite as good as they had hoped for by now and they needed to achieve 'X'' amount of orders by last week to be able to place orders for the parts required to build them (which they will have to order a minimum amount of, maybe all 60 in one go) for suppliers to tool up for. They always had the sport planned but have had to bring it's announcement forward in order to secure more orders to achieve minmum parts supply stuff to get the GT cars going...it's the same minus the aero. Can't see any other reason they would do this else.

[Mister_Tad]

12 minutes ago, anthonyyule said:

I'm a bit upset.... it very much looks like Lotus knew all this when I was in their presence last Thursday when we were invited to view the GT430.... and when asked about future cars this was completely dismissed. Had they talked about the option of a non-winged version I think many of us would have been even more excited tbh. Would have also been nice to have been told about the auto before our Order Form had to be submitted too.

But yes.... its an attitude and strategy thing. Long term Lotus fan.... haven't had my head turned by anything else (call me a fanboy if you like) and should be an easy sell for the Group. I'm a grown up and understand implicitly how business works. I would have been thankful for the honest conversation with Lotus so I could have made an informed decision. Not feel like information was being withheld (and to what end?)

That's poor form to be fair. Whilst I hate the idea of the Porsche/Ferrari inner circle of customers that get first refusal on all new models before the public even hear of them, Lotus could stand to learn a thing or two from that, and should use the names on the GT430 order list to start building said inner circle.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Mister_Tad

[anthonyyule]

5 minutes ago, TheKevlarKid said:

Just at a guess...

Pre orders of 430 haven't been quite as good as they had hoped for by now and they needed to achieve 'X'' amount of orders by last week to be to be able to place orders for the parts required to build them (which they will have to order a minimum amount of ,maybe all 60 in one go) for suppliers to tool up for. They always had the sport planned but have had to bring it's announcement forward in order to secure more orders to achieve minmum parts supply stuff to get the GT cars going...it's the same minus the aero. Can't see any other reason they would do this else.

I do agree. I want someone to call me to tell me this. I still think they could and should be doing more to ring fence the original GT430 and to differentiate it from the Sport.

[JayEmm]

I am sure many pages ago I said I felt strongly the 430 should not have been a limited run, and they should have just sold as many as they could...

If Lotus are reading this (and I am sure they do), can I suggest a factory backed 430bhp upgrade for existing owners? KT will do it for a grand, so charge 3k or something and fit a gearbox cooler as part of it. I bet that would bring in a nice bit of cash. Porsche used to charge 8k or something mad for the old "powerkit" 911

[TheKevlarKid]

19 minutes ago, Mister_Tad said:

That's poor form to be fair. Whilst I hate the idea of the Porsche/Ferrari inner circle of customers that get first refusal on all new models before the public even hear of them, Lotus could stand to learn a thing or two from that, and should use the names on the GT430 order list to start building said inner circle.

They did that with the GTE, it took them a year to sell all 20 at 85k...

And that was only 2yrs ago! It don't think any of the original gte buyers got a heads up that the gt430 was coming up... I know I didnt.

 

:roll

[bosshog]

9 minutes ago, JayEmm said:

I am sure many pages ago I said I felt strongly the 430 should not have been a limited run, and they should have just sold as many as they could...

If Lotus are reading this (and I am sure they do), can I suggest a factory backed 430bhp upgrade for existing owners? KT will do it for a grand, so charge 3k or something and fit a gearbox cooler as part of it. I bet that would bring in a nice bit of cash. Porsche used to charge 8k or something mad for the old "powerkit" 911

You've suggested this on another thread. For me it makes zero sense for Lotus to do that (as much as you might want it).  Why would they offer something for 3K when - if you want an official Lotus product - you have to pay, 40-50K more to get it (plus other minor bits).

[JayEmm]

Two reasons, really:

1. Customers who want it will get it elsewhere, like with the premium stereo option, why dont Lotus themselves take the money?

2. It seems to me people generally are not convinced the 430 is worth the extra 40k. 

Bonus reason:

Being looked after by the factory is something all customers like. Lotus have a history here too, there were factory supercharger upgrades sold for the old Elise... It is not a new concept.