Evora GT430

[cobwatch]

Been watching and thinking. Remarkable. It is the first clear error from JMG. Anthony has every reason to be angry and i too would cancel my order. He has been taken for a fool. Anthony was deliberately misled when he visited the factory. The model naming strategy is clunky and silly. The most powerful (official) Evora model is clearly going to be an automatic. My advice for Anthony? Keep your powder dry and wait for the run-out auto 450 targa. If he sticks with Lotus at all.

[NedaSay]

Come to think of it... it is not exactly the first according to some but this one is quite the blunder.

[cbaileyuk]

8 hours ago, The Pits said:

Come on then Colin, what do you like about the Evora GT430Sportlowdownforceedition?

 

The shape is lovely. The drive will be good and engaging. None of this addresses the approach to release, the competition's relevant products or how they handled this particular batch of customers.

Specifically though, I expect, as per my current 350 (as the same stuff is being reused), the gearbox will be a bit shitty  but if its auto less so as the conversion job won't generate that incessant whine from the mating work they do in Hethel. Some say that's visceral addition. I don't see it like that.

If this was all new dev componentry, to achieve an end, the price tag, no problem. It's not though. Does make me look at my current toy and think that was cheap. Would never have considered it at three digits though. The tech and quality just is not there. I'd buy used and old as I like the brand but the next new toy wouldn't be lotus on its current path.

[The Pits]

Complaints about the gearshift at least are incredibly rare these days I think Lotus have done great work in this area. I don't see anyone offering the sort of carbon work you get on a Sport 410 for anywhere near the current asking price and suspension quality is still ahead of the alternatives, in my opinion of course. I don't take the view that new automatically equals better when it comes to sports cars, particularly the direction that many have been taking in recent years. 718 Boxster or Cayman anyone? Faster, more 'tech' certainly but less appealing in just about every way than the flat 6 predecessor. It's a path likely to be followed by the all-new Exige but a bigger, easier to get into, turbo four paddleshift Exige is not what I'm looking for in a Lotus. It is also the point at which the low budget will become more obvious I reckon. For that sort of daily useable, all round sports car, the big companies do it better and cheaper. The best chance for Lotus is to keep making cars that the big names wouldn't dare to release. I think Lotus have to be very careful in giving people what they claim to want. Just look at sales of the more useable Exige V6 Roadster. It's the best Exige of all on the road where 90% are driven 90% of the time. Lotus will sell far more of the dramatic, exotic and less useable 380 Cup this year. The Elise remember was a Seven replacement with a very modest sales forecast. Lotus stumbled onto a winning formula at the right time. It was an engineering-led car. If they had been aiming to shift the sort of numbers the Elise achieved it would most likely have been a very different car and paradoxically would probably never have sold as well.

Old GM indicators will continue to raise a few eyebrows at the sticker price but as long as Lotus have to cut corners I'd rather they were doing it with the indicators than the dampers. I'd like to see more informative dashboards in Lotus cars but I've felt that way ever since the updated Esprit dash of the late 90's. Lotus haven't done dials for some time which is still a shame for me. TFT dashes have a habit of dating much faster than analogue dials but might be a way of getting more info about the car into a smaller space. Laptimers would be nice although somewhat controversial perhaps. I'd like to see a solution to the gearbox but only to unlock more of the potential of the Toyota V6. Gearshift quality is excellent now across the range. After having had 9 years of trouble free driving with Toyota engines I'd like Lotus to stick with them. Mechanical reliability has to be a top priority even though I personally would like higher revs and a more exotic spec and would be happy to compromise on engine longevity for it. Let people call it a Camry engine. Sure beats being on the hard shoulder. This will be my reply!

 

[cobwatch]

Fortunately for Lotus the new TVR is ugly...obviously they feel it is 570s fast. Specs suggest it should be.

[cbaileyuk]

@Pits

I never said gearshift, the gearshift is fine in the 350, good in fact. The gearbox isn't in my view. The way that manual is mated to the lump is very agricultural. Certainly when compared to high end (and low end in fact) brands I have owned.

However, as I said, it looks nice and the drive will be great but in 100k territory, things have to be different for me which is a shame because I have had my share of Lotus over the years - I've bought used and I've bought new. Their current cars just don't seem 100+ to me at all. Thus when the 350 is sold it will be a move to something different.

However, this is quite a distraction from the current core theme - their approach to the current batch of 430 customers and this detached thinking in relation to models.

[anthonyyule]

10 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Unless of course it means that a Lotus becomes just like every other sports car and loses what really does make it special. Then Lotus may have some fickle new customers form a wee while, but they will drift when the next bright new shiny thing comes along elsewhere and arguably Lotus could end up with a smaller, more fickle, less sticky, customer base.

I have to say, it has taken the polish and pazzazz out of the GT430 launch for me and left me confused as to what really is the difference between a 400, 410, or a 430 now.  @anthonyyule. I feel for you. I would not have emailed Murray's though I'd have driven down to them and bloody well screamed the place down to ensure they knew full well just how pissed I was at them - as my dealer with my order placed I would  EXPECT THEM TO KNOW if something like this might be happening.  Best of luck with your decisions and outcomes.

Given it a lot of thought tonight and I am now not likely to jump to a 410 - I had decided to fook the man maths and just do it as I only get to live once - so instead I will stay with my 2010 NA Evora +0.  The shocking thing to note is that my NA +0 will be a more limited production run then the GT430's and you cannot retrofit the +2 seats to spoil it, or its exclusivity, either.  I'm just going to continue to love, cherish and look after my S1 and forget about the other Evora's.  I'm now more likely to trade the VX220 for an Exige V6S/Cup (or possibly an Elise 250 CUP on 50:50) for mainly track joy. A big change in direction for my car ownership plans.

Aye aye.

I didn't email Murrays.... although they were copied in and this was following a phone call I had had with them the previous evening. I live in Aboyne and wouldn't have had the time to get down to Edinburgh anyway!

No... I emailed the factory with all my concerns and allowed them to digest before coming back to me. At the time of my last post yesterday afternoon they hadn't called me - but they did call me soon after and we have chatted through all of my concerns in frank open discussion. The in's and out's of which I wont go into as that's not fair on the chap I spoke to - but there is a general understanding of my concerns and they remain hopeful that they can hang on to my custom.

All of this has rather taken the shine off of what should have been a fun few months filled with anticipation and excitement. Its distracted from the fact that the GT430 (wing/ no wing) is a fantastic car - and I would still be the first to say it. I also stand by my original motivation to get the car by saying that the winged GT430 mixes all of the best bits of my previous Lotus' into 1 perfectly distilled package. I actually like the idea of the auto - so this is a further enhancement to what I consider to be an already captivating package.

However.... timing sucks/ marketing sucks/ the big man upstairs "sucks". I wont hide behind forums or emails - and I happily told the Factory all of this. Lotus cant survive on second hand car sales. It can only prosper when folks dig deep and buy new. This was another motivating factor for me handing over my deposit - as I really buy into the brand and I want to see them succeed. This is something which I don't think JMG really cares about... and I find that disheartening. I've read all the comments and thanks for your support. I maintain that the lack of customisation on the GT430 irks....... and the confused model line up of Evora needs some serious overhauling - but I also take on board all comments about relative lack of numbers of these cars on the road and even standard run cars are normally seen as rare. I also agree that its only Lotus die-hards that care about Evora model line up.

What happens next? - Not sure. Waiting for another call from the Factory and a possible test drive in a 400 auto over the coming weeks. My Order remains in the system for now.... but that's by no means a guaranteed sale to Lotus as I still feel some work needs to be done to keep prospective customers "feeling special". Scott Walker arranged the GT430 customer day off his own bat last Thursday - but things like this should be built into the whole sales experience at the highest level.... possibly even with the opportunity for the big man upstairs to make the effort to come and "meet & greet" the customers that he relies on. Rambles on.

Watch this space - as things stood last Thursday. Build of the GT430 expected to commence circa Nov/ Dec with first deliveries around January. It was openly discussed that many might hold back delivery for the new '18 Plate in March (and some happy to wait even longer for the nicer weather to arrive). So....either winged or non winged.... I don't expect to see many real cars until early 2018 giving plenty of time to make final decisions on what to do next.  

 

[cbaileyuk]

Did they discuss the prospect of releasing the 430 Sport as a 'new line' first and THEN offer a GT pack as an option to the 430 Sport? Make the GT pack limited if they see the need - that would have been far clearer and less cynical.

That is what any normal brand would do.

Good luck with it all though Anthony!

Edited September 8, 2017 by cbaileyuk

[C8RKH]

1 minute ago, cbaileyuk said:

That is what any normal brand would do.

 

What like Porsche!  hahahaha... laughing so hard my head fell off....

[anthonyyule]

2 minutes ago, cbaileyuk said:

Did they discuss the prospect of releasing the 430 Sport as a 'new line' first and THEN offer a GT pack as an option to the 430 Sport? Make the GT pack limited if they see the need - that would have been far clearer and less cynical.

That is what any normal brand would do.

Good luck with it all though Anthony!

Aye - I discussed that with them..... answers seemed a bit confused... like the left hand and right hand aren't really talking to each other all of the time. I think there is room for all of the models in Evora line up..... but it takes a bit of forward thinking to consider how the line up should look and how they all talk to each other. Its like both of these cars were considered in isolation by different departments and then dropped on the motoring world at approximately the same time. Great cars aside.... its led to confusion (and in my case at least) some bitterness and resentment at the Brands lack of communication to its loyal customers.

[cbaileyuk]

Understood. Shame that 

[The Pits]

As with every Lotus announcement there seems to be more interest in Lotus's marketing strategy (or lack of) than in the cars themselves.

Does the name or model line-up really matter so much? Call me simplistic but don't we just buy the one we like the most from the cars we can afford?

[ramjet]

Don't all company decisions at this sort of level ultimately fall on JMG? Wouldn't he have approve it all? Be it right or wrong or just all mixed up?

I can see it now.

New for Lotus.

The slowest Evora yet. The Evora SP 50. (SP = snail paced)

[anthonyyule]

12 minutes ago, The Pits said:

As with every Lotus announcement there seems to be more interest in Lotus's marketing strategy (or lack of) than in the cars themselves.

Does the name or model line-up really matter so much? Call me simplistic but don't we just buy the one we like the most from the cars we can afford?

Doesn't matter 1 jot. But on the day that you submitted your order form for your 410 Sport you found out that they were bringing out another 410 XXX for less money - how would you have felt? You'd have preferred to have known so you could make an informed decision - as we all would? Surely?

Names/ Models/ - no fussed. I'm sure many folks out there take a long time to deliberate over specs.... hell - I jumped on a plane and flew all the way from rural Scotland to Hethel last Thursday (via a diversion to Heathrow) just so I could see the car and make my final decision on what I wanted my car to look like........ but now we know that a few "useful" pieces of information were withheld from that meeting which may have helped me (and others). How would you have felt if you had done that? - flights at my own cost/ days wages lost...... all in good faith to make an informed decision. hmmmm.

Edited September 8, 2017 by anthonyyule

[Cypriot]

taking into account this: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-goodwood-revival/500bhp-tvr-griffith-revealed-goodwood-revival

 

I think the expensive evoras are going to struggle.... But I would like to hear everyone else's view.

[JayEmm]

At the end of the day, a lot of people are simply interested in "bang for buck" - we all know once people get in a Lotus and drive it, they "get" it. But convincing them to do that is hard.

Incidentally, I have yet to hear of a single dealer who DID know about the upcoming announcement. That's not helpful. I think places like Murray's at the very least - who seem to have the majority of 430 orders - deserved to know this was coming.

I can't wait to see one of these in the flesh still, the mule did look nice. Big wing 'n all.

The new TVR is at least 18 months away, I think we have to wait for reviews to see if it will steal Lotus customers. The handling needs to be excellent, but Gordon Murray does have form...

[anthonyyule]

The GT430 was.... captivating. An amazing looking Lotus.... an amazing looking car. They had set it up in their Design Studio.... all white walls and white floor.... and it looked EPIC. The wing is brutal.... the aero looks really well conceived and thought through. The interior wasn't exact because the mule was actually a 410..... so the interior was missing some of the finer GT430 features such as the carbon topped binnacle and the twin stitching on the dash and door cards (although the Sparco seats were there and looked very nice in carbon). When I first saw it in the flesh I actually stopped in my tracks and took a few seconds to compose myself (which I hope no one else noticed!). There was a rush to get round the car but I stood back and soaked it all up. Believe me.... when this car arrives on the street it will have HUGE presence - and justifiably so. I think the Sport will also turn heads (just like every Evora does tbh)....but the aero kitted versions are going to be mad.

[anthonyyule]

CONFIRMED

GT430 - 60 UNITS - (increased to 10 from 6 for UK)

GT430 Sport - 60 UNITS worldwide (excluding US)

Which I guess gives a GT430 family size of 120 cars with circa 20+ only coming to the UK - 10 of those max as big winged versions.

Happy days.

[JayEmm]

IMHO should still be one model with the big daddy being an aero kit.

That way call it a £99,999 car plus options. Wouldn't seem half as bad then.

Not sure if I'm happy or sad they're still limiting it. Confused mostly lol.

[The Pits]

1 hour ago, anthonyyule said:

Doesn't matter 1 jot. But on the day that you submitted your order form for your 410 Sport you found out that they were bringing out another 410 XXX for less money - how would you have felt?

I would like to think I'd be OK with that providing I could switch to the cheaper version if I preferred it for any reason. The thing you describe about being rushed into placing the order before the announcement sounds appalling but, as you've shown, you can cancel the order, quite understandable in those circumstances and I hope the message is understood loud and clear among those responsible. With a test track available to Lotus I think all deposit holders should be invited to try the car on track, along with many other things to make them feel appreciated and valued. Balls to leaving it outside the Dorchester for a week to let teenagers climb all over it. Porsche are treating many loyal customers like dirt at the moment, it's a real opportunity for Lotus to offer a more personal experience.

I think I would stick with the winged version for £6k more if you like the look of the aero parts and the downforce they produce. I was bracing myself for the inevitable Sport 430 Evora shortly after taking delivery of the 410 and JMG's rate of new car release seems pretty frenzied for reasons I don't fully understand. But ultimately isn't it like anything else? Phones, computers, TVs the rate of progress is fast and you have to accept that if you wait forever you miss out completely. While I've been dragging my feet Stubox has been enjoying a Sport 410 and I'm now left without a modern Lotus until next year. I can get a 'better' one in January but will have to pay another £20k at least for that. Something similar will apply when they release the next major Evora update. It's more than likely that the 400 will get the 430 engine, probably with the new bumpers too, though perhaps not in carbon fibre. So it will be similar looking to the GT430 Sport as Russell Carr phases out Donato Coco's design but it won't make 250kg of downforce nor will the GT430 be any less of a car. My Exige V6 Cup was never diminished in my eyes by the 360 and 380 Cups. The Evora GTE is still spectacularly good looking and has presence to spare.

Things could undoubtedly be handled better and the name GT430 Sport is still ridiculous but it looks like you're happier that both are now limited production. Thanks for the update. Who knows, you might have been responsible for the change!

[cbaileyuk]

6 minutes ago, anthonyyule said:

CONFIRMED

GT430 - 60 UNITS - (increased to 10 from 6 for UK)

GT430 Sport - 60 UNITS worldwide (excluding US)

Which I guess gives a GT430 family size of 120 cars with circa 20+ only coming to the UK - 10 of those max as big winged versions.

Happy days.

Now, when you say 'CONFIRMED'  - what do you actually mean 

[PaulCP]

13 minutes ago, anthonyyule said:

CONFIRMED

GT430 - 60 UNITS - (increased to 10 from 6 for UK)

GT430 Sport - 60 UNITS worldwide (excluding US)

Which I guess gives a GT430 family size of 120 cars with circa 20+ only coming to the UK - 10 of those max as big winged versions.

Happy days.

I guess the pricing is going to ensure that both models are limited in numbers.

Whilst I fully understand your frustration the one thing that would really piss me off would be for them to produce a number of stock cars which don't sell well then end up being greatly discounted to shift them. 

[anthonyyule]

16 minutes ago, cbaileyuk said:

Now, when you say 'CONFIRMED'  - what do you actually mean 

Well - I've confirmed that I'm keeping my full fat GT430 order.... which in retrospect given the open discussions I have had with Lotus is the right thing to do.   

My spec has changed slightly, however, but I'm still very excited (and wish yesterdays be bump hadn't happened tbh!)

And the factory have told me that there will only be 60 and 60.

Edited September 8, 2017 by anthonyyule

[PaulCP]

1 hour ago, ramjet said:

Don't all company decisions at this sort of level ultimately fall on JMG? Wouldn't he have approve it all? Be it right or wrong or just all mixed up?

 

I actually believe that no decisions are taken within Lotus by anyone other than JMG. Whilst getting Lotus profitable has to be the key to their future let's hope that their approach to customers doesn't become as contemptuous as some of the major motor manufacturers.

[cbaileyuk]

18 minutes ago, anthonyyule said:

Well - I've confirmed that I'm keeping my full fat GT430 order.... which in retrospect given the open discussions I have had with Lotus is the right thing to do.   

My spec has changed slightly, however, but I'm still very excited (and wish yesterdays be bump hadn't happened tbh!)

And the factory have told me that there will only be 60 and 60.

Well as long as you, the man with the cash, is happy, that's the core thing!

Enjoy your wait until collection now