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Hi

As I wrote on the exige 380 cup topic I would like to remap the ecu of the 380 especially to get some slightly higher rev limiter as the older models.

I would also like to make the throttle response more direct and see if it s possible to remove or modify the clutch switch system that I think is what makes the throttle not react a lot when you blip it with the clutch pedal pressed.

I understand that Lotus might have done the lower rev limiter as they fitted a smaller pulley using the same supercharger and that could generate heat at higher supercharger rpm but then the v6 cup r was also using a smaller pulley with more than 360bhp

and was still revving to 7200 rpm.

Does anyone knows the pulley size of the v6 cup r and the 380?

Any info or suggestion?

 

 

Edited by Maxi_z
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Even if you could, raising the rev-limiter on the 380 might be unwise... Expanding on your existing comments, Lotus use the slightly lower engine RPM-limit to protect the Super Charger from over-

@alias23 I'm not going to speculate. The new 430 Cup has a higher RPM limit than the 380, as does the 350 and V6S. I took a look at the De Roure parts list and  the only thing I could see is that from

When I had my 997 GT3 I looked to part ex against an RS version.  Car had a new engine fitted at 3k miles.  Dealer showed me the bill.... £52k !!!!

Even if you could, raising the rev-limiter on the 380 might be unwise...

Expanding on your existing comments, Lotus use the slightly lower engine RPM-limit to protect the Super Charger from over-speeding and mechanical failure.  The 380 uses a smaller pulley wheel, meaning that the S/C is always running at a higher RPM than it would on the 350 and similar model variants - S/C RPM is directly proportional to engine RPM.

Reducing the size of the pulley wheel has a similar effect to increasing the volumetric capacity of the S/C - as running at a higher RPM causes the impeller to shift more air.  This approach comes with penalty of greater stress on rotating components.  Ingestion of a “detonated” S/C might have terminal consequences to your engine; failure due to seizure wouldn’t be good either!

Some “tuners” have been known to reduce the pulley size on stock cars.  Lotus build for reliability - and warranty.

Edited by LotusPilot
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I agree with everything you are saying

But if the exige cup r can get 7200rpm with the same size pulley (I m not sure if it s exactly the same size but should be similar or same) or tuners can make an older exige tuned with the same pulley at 7000rpm than as you say

the compressor is off course a little more on the edge but it could be done and the main reason is that Lotus build for reliability and warranty and their right...

Another way of seeing it is that it s also partially just marketing as even if there is slightly more torque I would say that I would prefer a slightly bigger pulley for reliability but to be able to rev as before to 7000 rpm at least....

Sounds similar to what an exige cup 360 is

Not to talk about that some owners in France got the 380 on the dyno with lower than expected bhp

 

 

Edited by Maxi_z
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I'm quite sure that on the 380, it is the SC pulley that is smaller than on the S/350s... and french specialist Bourcier has just released an upgrade for the Exige that also use a smaller SC pulley, as they reckon it's the best way to do (this way, the alternator, water pump and other accessories turn at the stock speed), even though it implies to change the SC "nose" (pulley is pressed on its axle) ! 

 

http://lir-racing.com/kits-evo/1191-kit-evo-x80-exige-v6.html

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On November 9, 2017 at 10:49, Maxi_z said:

I agree with everything you are saying

But if the exige cup r can get 7200rpm with the same size pulley (I m not sure if it s exactly the same size but should be similar or same) or tuners can make an older exige tuned with the same pulley at 7000rpm than as you say

the compressor is off course a little more on the edge but it could be done and the main reason is that Lotus build for reliability and warranty and their right...

Another way of seeing it is that it s also partially just marketing as even if there is slightly more torque I would say that I would prefer a slightly bigger pulley for reliability but to be able to rev as before to 7000 rpm at least....

Sounds similar to what an exige cup 360 is

Not to talk about that some owners in France got the 380 on the dyno with lower than expected bhp

 

 

@Maxi_z--I'm pretty sure my CupR uses the stock pulley …. at least based upon the boost it produces which I monitor with an added boost sensor.

Jack
2008 2-Eleven
2015 Exige V6 CupR
Track videos ... http://www.youtube.com/jackcup
2010 Lotus Challenge Series ULTRA Class champion
2012 Lotus CUP USA OPEN Class champion

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  • 1 month later...

I just ordered a komo tec 390 kit for the cup 380 that uses their sports manifolds without cats and then use a center pipe with a sports cat air filter and a specific remap with slighly raised limiter.

In the 380 it should make a slightly bigger difference as the standard pulley is already different.

I will consider later to complete it with the 460 kit.

Will report how it goes once fitted.

 

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12 hours ago, Maxi_z said:

I just ordered a komo tec 390 kit for the cup 380 that uses their sports manifolds without cats and then use a center pipe with a sports cat air filter and a specific remap with slighly raised limiter.

In the 380 it should make a slightly bigger difference as the standard pulley is already different.

I will consider later to complete it with the 460 kit.

Will report how it goes once fitted.

 

Did you install a harness bar in the cup? If yes which one did you get and do you have pictures of how it looks installed?

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I got the harness bar from pb racing in Italy and asked them to trim the plastic covers to fit the harness bar

Before installing it I looked at different ones on internet and the main differences is that some of them got an L shaped bracket welded to the bar where they bolt on the original roll bar others are made with welded some smaller tube with a hole where the bolt goes and I think that it looked more solid like that. and that s what they installed.

You can look at all the main resellers but I think that komotec were the ones I was about to buy if I didn t buy it at the dealer.

I then Installed the schroth belts but as I wanted to keep the standard seatbelts It required some sector 111 special bolt kit and some modifications to the oem bolts etc

I found the sector 111 bolt kit in stock from a uk motorsport parts seller or you can get it at the new site of what was the owner of sector 111 as sector 111 is closed I think.

I can take pictures of the bar but you will really see nothing different from the ones online as the attachment are behind the plastic.

If later you want a detailed description of the seatbelt bolts when you fit them I can take pictures but if you just keep the harness you are ok with the oem bolts.

 

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Extra V6 CupR power came from air filter mod (HKS I think), remap and exhaust. Cup 360 just had the Lotus Sports exhaust and Toyota TRD filter element. Both same pulleys as the standard '350' motor. V6 Cup had much better engine cooling too with no boot and lots of extra mesh grill in the rear clam.

No reason why you can't uprate a 380, trouble is, it costs the same as a 350 to do.

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22 hours ago, GFWilliams said:

I believe there’s more different about the 380 engine which is why the Rev limit is lower...

Hi,

Can you shed any light/expand on this please?

thanks

Mark

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@Maxi_z Amongst the charger pulley chat, just want to acknowledge how annoying the throttle blip thing is. I haven’t explicitly checked but I don’t think it does it in ‘Race’ as I don’t recall being annoyed about it on track. Oddly I find it responds to the second application of the throttle so you have to double pump to blip the throttle. Very annoying and robs you a little of the sports car experience, albeit when your going from A to B in standard ‘Touring’ mode. It’s still nice to feel directly connected enough to blip now and then. ? 

To be honest I thought it might have been related to the SC and be some kind of mass air stall in the intake. But if it’s something programmed in then I’m interested to hear why and if there’s an option to remove. ?

Edited by Sharky
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hmmm this is strange, I don't have a problem blipping the throttle although I've just been doing it in Touring mode. just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here, we're talking about blipping the throttle when rev matching right? 

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Hi

Ok can t comment about the 390 komotec kit as before fitting it my engine broke at the track.

I did two sessions of 20 minutes and it was going well but no overheating or anything and then a short misfire followed by crushing noise and a broken case and some smoke.

It did not let go during a higer rpm acceleration but in a part of the track that is a sort of chicane were you short shift from second to third at maybe 4000 or 5000 rpm and it broke basically with the trottle closed.

Lotus would only take a small percentage of the repair under warranty as in the ecu datalog it seems that there is one wrong downshift that took the engine to 7800 rpm, I remember only one wrong downshift that could be the one recorded and it was last year and on the go pro the revs go to around 7200 rpm but the car worked fine for months after that.

I am probably going to fit an upgraded built engine and a 430 supercharger kit.

BTW the lotus really feels good on the track and it s an excellent car in many ways but as they are just taking the toyota engine as from the factory (and same for the gearbox) that part is  really not up to the task in quality if you indend to use it as it should.

 

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One missed shift....and they pull back on the warranty, that can happen anytime, never mind on track. Poor show Lotus.

cheers

Mark

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That's pretty poor. Like you say, if you'd done damage to the engine, surely it would have manifested itself some time ago.

James Martin (JayEmm)
Director of Photography & Car Enthusiast

Follow my Lotus adventure online! www.jayemm.com

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On ‎25‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 16:10, mark248am said:

hmmm this is strange, I don't have a problem blipping the throttle although I've just been doing it in Touring mode. just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here, we're talking about blipping the throttle when rev matching right? 

yes. Clutch depressed, blip for rev matching. Even though technically you should be in neutral with the clutch engaged.. I checked some video I took from a track day last week and it revs fine downshifting into a chicane. I'm still pretty sure that the lack of 'blippyness' (technical term) is due to the rotating mass of the V6 and the super charger at low revs. Rather than it being anything programmed in. In tour mode it might be slightly more exacerbated due to the throttle response that is part of the touring map.

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I am clearly not a track heroes as you guys are, but the rev matching is great on my renault and catheram, cheap cars, and it is really shit on the lotus .. ( I have the problem in sport mode ...) Surprised you take that failure so calmly, good for you ! 

 

Edited by chumaxa
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Ok in fact I spoke with the dealer to understand things better.

I asked him about the price to build a special motor to replace the broken one so he offered me a quote for a non standard tuned engine and at the same time it seems that he spoke to someone at Lotus asking what they usually do if they get a warranty claim of an engine that had one overrev during a mis shift (not when the engine failure happened but many hours of use before) and they replied that probably the warranty claim would be rejected and as he thought that I wanted btw to get the tuned engine he did not officially made the claim.

Now I m anyway interested probably in the tuned motor but does anyone here know what usually Lotus would do for warranty if there was an overrev?

Some friends that work with cars told me that for example porsche warranty will still work in a similar situation.

 

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My opinion is that they are taking the piss, Lotus that is. If your engine failed at the time you had the bad shift and you were on track, then yes, your fault. But sometime later, I dont think so.

I think you need to drop @Bibs a PM he may be able to help out here.

cheers

Mark

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I'm a bit confused ... can we just recheck the situation.

- Engine Broke on track
- Lotus Dealer checks ECU and see's an over rev (long time ago not at time of incident) to which he feels could invalidate a warranty claim
- Customer suggests wants a tuned engine (anyway)
- Lotus Dealer provides quote for tuned engine, calls Lotus Group and mentions the over rev to which Lotus Group suggest likely warranty claim would be rejected
- Lotus Dealer doesn't lodge official warranty claim request

Is that the current situation? 

If so my suggestion would be to ask the dealer to begin the official warranty process with Lotus and await formal feedback on if the claim is accepted or rejected. A brief call can't really confirm either way - It should go through the formal process before escalating in my opinion. Lotus Group should be given a fair opportunity to review and make a decision as part of their warranty process.

The tuned engine... what recommendations have the dealer given you? I dont know of many folks who have 'tuned' as in reinforced the standard engine, the only ones I know of are Komotec and Jubu as part of their 500bhp type power upgrades. The engine on a 460 seems to be doing quite well (albeit on the older versions of V6), the gearboxes can find it difficult with that power, but the engines in general seem to be taking 400-430bhp with ease (again albeit the older version of the V6).

IF you want a proper tuned engine here you go:
https://www.motorsportauctions.com/category/333/Prototypes-and-GTs/listings/33870/Lotus-Evora-GT4-Cosworth-GLA-Spec-Race-Engine.html

However i'd save your money for a little while and go through the proper warranty process with Lotus Group first.

@Mark030358 no one has ever confirmed, and I can understand why, but I do believe there has been 'something' which has caused Lotus to change the rev limit position. Maybe Toyota wasn't happy with the risk of their engines being used in the manner a Lotus owner would use it and wanted to de-risk their liability and therefore put terms on the supply to Lotus. Maybe there have been engine claims which has concerned Lotus and they've limited their exposure by applying the rev limiter to the new models. I don't know ... as some would say I'm just 'some bloke' speculating, but for sure I believe something happened to instil the change... I mean why would any sports manufacturer impose such a change on later models unless it was to de-risk. But again I'm just some bloke.

www.alias23.com

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@alias23 I'm not going to speculate. The new 430 Cup has a higher RPM limit than the 380, as does the 350 and V6S. I took a look at the De Roure parts list and  the only thing I could see is that from engine number J949034 the following are different..

Cylinder Heads

Valve Springs

Valve Spring Retainers

Valve Rocker Arms

I have no idea where engine number J949034 fits in terms of models/production etc.

But it would be incredulous to believe that Lotus would specify different internal engine components for different variants of the Exige range, given their current penchant for penny pinching (see earlier posts of mine for changes in specifications to the 380), as that would in all probability cost far too much money.

So at this moment in time we have a conundrum.

cheers

Mark

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