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F**. Using the old charge cooler pump for cam position sensor. - Engine/Ancilliaries - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
Roberto Esprit

F**. Using the old charge cooler pump for cam position sensor.

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So Lotus suggested this for my ECM upgrade. The guy said we of course cant suggest upgrading the ECM but he understood what I was doing and why. The chagre cooler pump is driven by the ribbed pulley no?

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The only thing is, it's the furthest point from the crank (in the direction of travel), so taking up the slack in the belt causes that one pulley to be rotated more than any other.

I'm not saying don't to it, I am saying be aware that each time you re-tension the belt you may get a different timing relative to true TDC, so if you re-set that you'd probably be fine.

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So Andy, you are saying that @Roberto Esprit would need to check/adjust timing at each timing belt change?

 

We Esprit owners with distributors always do that anyway! :P   It's a doddle.

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Yep, it's just likely not as easy to get accurate as a set-once system like a crank sensor, and doesn't have the ease of being able to see a rotor arm pointing to No1 to know how close it is to firing.

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16 hours ago, Roberto Esprit said:

So Lotus suggested this for my ECM upgrade. The guy said we of course cant suggest upgrading the ECM but he understood what I was doing and why. The chagre cooler pump is driven by the ribbed pulley no?

Did they ?   I was not aware they had studied the concept , especially as it would not fit in with their ignition format on a version that went out of production 20 years ago.   As far as I am aware no one used or converted the Charge cooler pump to a sequential trigger before i did back in 2010 ...  As per the post in the 412 thread Attached.    As far as the concept and tuning format goes , there is no issues using this type / system . But  I am still confused as to the point of this thread ..  You contacted me privately about all the tuning aspects used to achieve the improved power etc. I took time out to explain many things to you in more detail ,   you also said you had studied carefully all the points made in the 412 thread.  So your questions had previously been answered twice..   !!!!!!!!!!! 

The engine and management has been just one part , possibly the most expensive and technical , but equally rewarding... I did envisage 400 bhp as a possibility but with wanting it to also be a daily driver the spec had to reflect that, close would have been nice, 422 average is very encouraging....391 at the wheels... You asked is there more to be had , my answer is most certainly.....my only concern would be at what price.!!!!!

I feel some of the changes such as the sequential injection have helped with the smoothness , In its self it adds no real power benefit but does help iron out a few bumps in the tuning

It is all of these little things that have made it such an extensive job , but also made it what it is.... as i said before its all the little details that add up to make the final product...

 

Someone asked to see pic of the devise used to operate the sequential timing...well here it is...The old charge cooler pump modified to house the sensor and trigger ..

post-10519-0-71270800-1308859626_thumb.j

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What ? Can't you just fit massive injectors, a huge turbo and crank the boost right up :sofa:

  • Haha 1

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You can, and you may well find the engine subsequently turns over very easily, having eliminated that pesky compression by putting a suitable hole in the piston tops.:devil:

  • Haha 1

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Sorry man I forgot. Also I was double checking. I read your stuff long ago. I'll re read.

But none the less Thank you. Your fast answer will help lighten the load and reminds me to read your write up again. Really if you dont mind maybe next year or so I could bind all this info together along with other high power esprits for an Esprit high performance PDF.

Edited by Roberto Esprit

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You're very welcome,     Can I suggest you start a file and make notes on all the info you collect, receive ,and find , it may save you a lot of time going over the same ground repeatedly.. 

all the best with your project.. 

D

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Pretty much stating what I have been half assing... Sorry guys. I been real real busy. I am finally getting the audi gone this week so the new years project is getting some hinges made for these boys.

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For those that don't have the CC pump option, another way is to mount the sensor behind the exhaust cam pulley using the existing cam belt snubber holes and put a steel pin in the pulley.

Timing for the cam sensor should not be critical, it's just letting the ECU know where in the four-stroke cycle the engine is.

CamSensorMount small.jpg

CamSensorPinSmall.jpg

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just a caution doing that:

the sensor is directly above the exhaust manifold and may not like the heat for long

the bolt imbalances the pulley, spinning fairly fast.  may be insignificant compared to the belt forces, but something to keep in mind.

(i was going to do the same until Dave showed me his solution)

BTW, here is my final (balanced) solution for use with CC pump

 

cam trigger sprocket in housing assy.jpg

cam trigger.pdf

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You'll all hate what I did with mine. I upgraded from carbs to an electronic ignition and fuel injection using an Emerald M3D ECU.

As my car didn't have functioning Air con when I bought it, my engineer friend and I removed the crank pulley, turned off the end of the pulley where the belt for the AC would go, and fitted a Ford Mondeo crank position wheel, along with a Ford Mondeo crank position sensor on an adjustable block mounted to the sump!

Sounds horrific, but it's a really nice job. Where it is in the engine bay, it's away from the exhaust and doesn't get wet down there due to the under tray being right under it. It's sat there happily working without any adjustment (even after a cam belt change) for about 17 years. It's directly on the crank as well, so as accurate as you can get.

One caveat is that the Emerald system works quite nicely with OEM Ford sensors which is why I went that route. Don't think I have a picture handy, but the Ford crank wheel is only a tiny bit bigger than the pulley was anyway so doesn't interfere with anything.

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Crank sensor is a different story- I tucked mine away behind the pulley.

 

CrankSensorVer2 small.jpg

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nothing wrong with either of those solutions Glyn and Thom!  aftermarket ECU conversion is more popular than i thought in the Esprit community and quite a bit of diversity in ECU brands!  

 

0621151348-00.jpg

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On 21/03/2018 at 23:04, ragingfool35 said:

nothing wrong with either of those solutions Glyn and Thom!  aftermarket ECU conversion is more popular than i thought in the Esprit community and quite a bit of diversity in ECU brands!  

The owners are slowly coming round to the fact that certain parts on the Esprit are N/A and substitutes need sourcing.  The charge cooler pump is readily being updated to electric as a mechanical one it was unreliable at best.  This is being done and excepted without ridicule even though the original parts are available.   So why not the ECU , as a tuning aid in Glyn's case and upgrade in others.   

On 21/03/2018 at 12:24, Glyn Harper said:

You'll all hate what I did with mine. I upgraded from carbs to an electronic ignition and fuel injection using an Emerald M3D ECU.

Glyn , you are not alone where people/ owners do not approve of what is done when you modify.  They gave me a hard time on this very forum when I announced  my upgrades and performance figures , making suggestions these power figures were fiction.  It took a lot of chat to convince people that it was genuine....   

The fact is people had tried to tune their Esprit's using the original ECU and the IFY PUK chips. They never got satisfactory results so said is was not possible..  What they should have done is their homework as some of us did , then except the std ECU is very limited.    The real beauty is there are several not overly expensive stand alone ECU's out there that will improve the Esprit engine performance ..  Not necessarily power but smoothness and quick cranking start up start up etc.   They also then give you the tools to improve the many area's that we subsequently exposed as weak..  For those looking for more BHP this is the doorway forward, the only limitation is the capability of your stand alone unit and the depth of your pockets, but a reliable 350 bhp will be quite obtainable by those prepared to go the extra mile.   We have already done the hard work for them..      

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I put the Emerald ECU in as it was the easiest way to replace the carbs and distributor at the time. It was far easier to get hold of the aftermarket parts and senors. (Sensors mostly). I think I would have preferred the OEM system, but it would have meant quite a headache with wiring and several other parts that were tricky to get.

Now though, I’m glad I have the Emerald system as it allows me a lot more flexibility and I don’t have to worry about obsolete parts as much, as I can calibrate it for more or less any sensors as it will just learn whatever I attach to it.

It’s an old ish ecu by today’s standards though (circa 2000). The more modern versions allow for a lot more sensors, and therefore smoother running, better economy and with more power. But for now, I’m happy enough with the 290bhp I got on the dyno. I don’t need more power, I’d just like it smoother really. But that carries a price I can’t justify at the moment.

But yeah, slowly we are having to adapt to replacing obsolete parts though. I know at some point there will be something that’s just no longer available that we’ll all struggle to get. But then we’re a resourceful bunch and there are some very clever Esprit owners out there making some clever replacement parts.

I suppose I’m lucky really my car started as a standard ‘88 turbo. I don’t have to worry about stuff like abs sensors!

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HE he..... It should already be installed at this point..... Also should Glyn should have hinges.... I spent my savings on a cooking show I been doing and then I had to get summers... Best part is I saved the money again... Guess what Japan has a yearly tax and since shes a legal gal it means I have to pay 500$ or about 300 Pounds sterling.

 

Now Back to the topic. You boys did a wonderful job of supplying information. I think in the end I am going to go with the sensor on the crand until I get  a wad of cash and can machine that flywheel I want. The only reason being I dont like sharp things in the engine bay and those triggers look like open knickles to me. Theres a chunk off my happy finger right now from the damned frame.

On the CAM. I dunno if I will use the charge cooler or the cam sprocket. I may go for option 3 which is using a stamped steel triger I have off the old 12V audis. I got 4 digital hall effect sensors.

Its coming along. Slow as molasses. But I gotta thank you guys for such details and photos. Their worth a million words and hours of rescearch.

 

Also an update on the car: I decided after tires AIR is a priority and the system had some pressure in it I am hoping they evacuated it and I got some naughty stuff to put in. Tires are going to be...... This is a big laugh... The correct size for the front in an off brand UHP thats stickier than the eagles and lops. The rear I had to go down to 225.... with.... thats a lot thinner but I couldn't find an equal performance tire anywhere for under a grand each!!!

Shifting is buttery smooth after Lubing it up and tightening the lockout pin. But my clutch is always an issue. It may have air in it. Reverse has been getting worse and it hasnt been coming out of gear easily. The line is stainless braided.  It drank some fluid but I cant find a leak.

 

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