Mileage anxiety

[The Pits]

It struck me as odd when we were discussing recently about putting miles on our cars that my V6 Cup was considered one of the higher mileage Cup cars out there with only 17k miles on the clock. Tom put 22k miles on his LF1 which is also considered a decent effort.

How did we get here? I can remember buying my first fast car from new. The plan was to drive it everywhere. I drove all over Scotland, the Alps, South of France, 20k miles was simply not considered high mileage back in the 90s. Anything sub 50k miles was still considered low mileage.

Everyone here is officially pro driving, anti-garage queen but elsewhere mileage anxiety is rife and I'd hate to see it spread here. The classic car boom has played a part. Cars are prized for having ultra low mileages, massive premiums charged and paid for. For some the mere acquisition of a delivery mileage McLaren F1 is the thrill but I think the whole thing has got out of hand now. The amount of trailering going on out there is ridiculous. The young Youtuber brigade talk about 10,000km (6,000 miles) being the line that must never be crossed.

Just in case anyone is wondering what happens to an Exige over 10k miles I can assure you all that the answer is very little. That 350 engine must be good for well over 150,000 miles without any major work. They don't rust, they are built to take track abuse, they really tough little cars. So this whole thing about keeping the miles down must be to do with preserving the value. No-one likes depreciation but it's a fact of life when buying new and you know what? Some cars are worth it. When they're sold all you'll have is the memories so we may as well go and make some to offset the cost. My Exige cost me roughly £4000 a year all-in. Looked at in those terms, it was definitely worth it for me. Some people are lucky enough to enjoy a depreciation free sports car, good for them but the actual cost of my V6 Cup was £16k for 4.5 years and just under 20,000 miles. I'd pay that again to repeat that in a V6 Cup in a heartbeat. More to the point, how much would I really have saved by keeping the mileage under 10k miles? Probably very little in reality. Even if it was still delivery mileage it would still have cost me £2k-£3k a year, at least, so the real cost of enjoying a car to the full is even smaller. To hell with what's going on among other marques, Lotus are for drivers. I'd like to propose that we do what we can to keep it that way. The crazy part is, if over 50k miles was the norm for an Exige, then the 20k miles cars would be considered low mileage and would subsequently be worth more.

I'm open to suggestions about what we might be able to do, in some small way, to push back against this trend. To get the ball rolling I'd like to see the judges at the Brands Festival and the TLF gathering rewarding cars that are showing higher mileages. I think there should be a special award for the furthest driven, the highest mileage car in show (regardless of condition) and the highest mileage completed in a year for each class. How about a letter from Lotus congratulating owners for reaching 100,000 miles? How about we start a thread entitled the 'High Mile Club' where we celebrate longer road trips and higher mileage cars and hopefully get to hear about some of the great adventures they have been on. Suggestions welcome.

[Trevsked]

Well count me in Jonny, I'll see what I can do to keep you happy this year.

 

Trevor.

[The Pits]

The highest mileage GT430 is a prize in itself!

Would be nice to see use and mileage getting greater recognition and rewarded in some way. Even Lamborghini do this now!

 

[Mark Blanchard]

I've got 109k on my Esprit and never had any mileage anxiety.  For older cars you have anxiety about not driving them and it all seizing up.  Use them or loose them.

[The Pits]

We could have an ongoing competition on here by posting pics of our odos for the highest mileage example of each model. Can anyone with an early 'Stephen's' Turbo top Mark's?

[Mark Blanchard]

There's a guy called Alan with an X180 Turbo that's done 250k.  Geoff from Esprit Engineering has serviced it and kept it going.

[Trevsked]

Triggers Broom springs to mind :-)

 

Trevor.

[Advantage]

I hear some people don't have sex with their girlfriend to ensure that she's in good condition for the next bloke.

[Escape]

I do about 13k/year i my Esprit SE, it's now coming up to 120k total. No picture though, as I've replaced the bouncy speedo wit an electronic one at around 105k.

I'm sure regular use comes with good reliability. Mainly because a daily driver has to be reliable, so she gets all the attention she needs. For a weekend-only car, it would be easier to put up with some issues, and that could lead to even less use. Only downside is the wear and tear on both exterior and interior (stonechips etc). Wen buying a car, I really don't care that much about mileage either. It's all about condition, and off course the price has to reflect the work I think it likely needs. Don't care   much about service history either. A piece of paper is no guarantee it was all done correctly, you only find out when going in for yourself. My father just bought a nearly new car, almost identical to his current one, just because it's younger and has less miles (about 15k coming from 75k). Though he admits he's not a fan of the facelift changes and doesn't want or uses the added electronic gizmo's. I just don't understand why someone would replace a known, good and reliable car with an expensive younger one you know nothing about... He hasn't even seen, let alone driven it, just bought it from the ad. It's got me quite worked up, I do try to be happy for him, holiday spirit and all, but there's a rant inside me that needs to get out...

Filip   

[Vanya]

Well many of us here are Lotus lifers I suppose - we buy our cars to drive and not for reasons of speculation, although I'll admit I bought my V8 as an investment, while I intend to drive my SE until...well...technically forever as long as the engine and box are seen to when need be. 

Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that cheap money has made high-end cars available to the everyman, and a lot of us can't ACTUALLY afford to lose the entire value of a car, i.e. we'd like to get back what we paid or preferably, more. If I were a millionaire playboy, I shit you not, I would be daily driving a Countach, XJ220 or similar, no f***s given for historic value, mileage or otherwise. But I'm not. So I gotta take extra special care of what I have. 

/my2cents

@AdvantageThat has gotta be one of the most brutal posts I've ever seen on the internet. Top marks for you!!!! 

 

 

[The Pits]

I totally get the idea of wanting to protect your investment, also the role in over reaching ourselves to buy our dream cars. It's more a mental shift that's needed as mileage anxiety will actually ruin the ownership experience and render the whole exercise pointless! I've seen it first hand. It's obviously more acute elsewhere outside Lotus circles but the Exige conversation made me realise that it has crept over here in some form. Are there actually any mechanical differences between a 5000 mile car and a 15,000 mile one? Or 25k miler and a well maintained 75k one? Chances are, the Toyota V6 will be running even better in the higher mileage car. Seems a lot of it is obsessing about arbitrary numbers. Why the big dip at 100k miles? Is 100,000km an equally big deal in Europe and Japan? Sub 50k miles is such a big deal among classic cars that some would prefer to pay more for a dubious 48k mile car than an honest 85k mile car. That's when you know things have gotten out of hand.

 

 

[pete]

my rs 250 has done 120,000 miles and has had everything done to it in the past and so is really like a 20,000 mile car

[Chillidoggy]

There's soon to be a rival to Jonny's YouTube posting.

"Barry's Garage."

[williamtherebel]

Last year I inherited my fathers car, so its parked in front of the garage,and too handy to jump into for quick trips to the shops! Before that I used my Eclat as a daily driver (my only car) for the last 20 years. Apart from things wearing out and problems with rust/sediment in the petrol tank it has been a great runner. I used to go to the car shows and show my car, not with any real expectations but just to join in. Occasionally it would pick up the odd award for 'originality' etc but couldn't compete with the concourse winner arriving on the back of the trailer, pushed into position, wins the concourse, then pushed back onto trailer and driven away. Very sad. Just an expensive ornament. If that's your thing fair enough, --- but I love my Lotus, I love the looks its still gets, but best of all I LOVE DRIVING IT !! 

[Escape]

Yeah, for many 100.000km is a barrier as well, anything above will be considered an old car. Sure, at that mileage some items are more likely to need replacing, like alternator, starter. But that's no big deal really. A decent yearly use seems like a better deal than a low-mileage car only used around town that maybe never got up to temperature.

Totally agree a car needs to be driven to be enjoyed! I guess it's a different story if you consider a car merely a transport of an investment. But if you really like your car, there's nothing better than to enjoy it anyway you can.

[The Pits]

I'd love to see the likes of William's car recognized at future Lotus events. Is this something we can look into for 2018 @Bibs, @Bazza 907?

I should add that I know that mileage is taken into account with the judges but I think we could probably take it a step further and award purely on mileage and distance travelled.

Trophy shouldn't cost much, the rustier and more battered the better! 

 

[ChrisJ]

@The Pits I think it already is taken into account - certainly at Brooklands. My Excel won it's class last year because it was driven daily. I think the Excel a couple of years before that was also placed first due to use.

 

[The Pits]

Glad to hear that, more of that please!

[Kevin Wheeler]

I agree with Jonny.

Drive and be damned!

20,000 miles in an Esprit in 4 years and 65,000 in an Elise in 7 years (ownership overlapping).

I bought them to drive. Keep them serviced and original as practical. Why would you leave them in the garage? 

[NR2k]

We regularly do 7 to 8k miles a year in the elise which is considered high. Brought over 10 years ago secondhand, and is now valued at what we originally paid for it. Recently worked out that with maintenance and upgrades its cost £1,500 a year to keep on the road, plus insurance. Thats doing the majority of the work ourselves. Thats got to be good value for money, and more fun driving than a hatchback. Only problem is getting agreed value insurance for that sort of mileage.

I hate to see cars not driven. Drive the wheels off it and maintain it properly and you will have a happy lotus, and a happy driver.

[Mark Blanchard]

Most older Esprits have 60,000 miles on the clock, irrespective of how many miles they’ve actually done, so there’s little mileage anxiety from the owners.

[Mark030358]

A while ago I posted the following 

And I actually wrote ( if you dont want to go to the thread..

"Hmmm, concours, interesting subject. Here's my take on it.

I have restored 3 Loti in my time, a '69 S2 Europa, a '72 Twin Cam Europa, a '69 Elan S4, all to exacting standards, the S2 however was highly modified. However, I am also fortunate to be the second owner of a '73 DHC Elan Sprint, which I bought from the original owner some 24 years ago, see a couple of pictures in my previous post in this thread. When I bought the car it had been stood for almost 12 years and needed a commissionin and a clean up under the bonnet. I didn't touch the interior or any of the trim, glass, dash etc as it was all 100% original. I didn't paint the car either. I would say the car is very good example, but would I replace the worn carpets, the dash that has some cracks in the veneer, switches that are turning milky? NO, not a chance. Why? because this is what the car is, a fine example of Chapmans best. That is not to say I haven't done things to improve "inherent" faults. Yes, I use braided stainless fuel hoses, because rubber ones split, I've replaced the doughnuts for CV's because the rubber on the doughnuts you get now is sub standard, a larger radiator to improve the always marginal cooling. So who would want to risk an engine bay fire, a drive shat coming through the floor? a warped cylinder head when stuck in traffic, not me for sure. I have seen all of the previous, if fact if you go to "Lotus Elan.net" a guy has recently had his pride and joy burn out due to an engine bay fuel leak. But I digress. To me a concours car is what it is, a trailer queen, a car that that is EXACTLY as it came from the factory. I say trailer queen as you cannot realistically do 6000 miles a year and keep a car perfect, not today, not with Asda car parks, not on our roads and not with jealous "bast@rds" who who key it in the blink of an eye.

So, in fairness, competitions like this should be judged on the miles a car travels in a year; say 0 to 500, 500 to 1000, 1000 to 3000 and so on, then everyone gets a chance to win something with their pride and joy.

A concours car is like a painting, its there to be looked at, admired, polished, preserved and maybe driven occasionaly :sofa"

 

Basically its all relative... In fifty years time, a one owner, low miles, low volume Cup car will be worth a small fortune. But as fossil fuel will probably not exist then, just get them driven.

Cheers

ps only posting on Xmas day as I'm far far from home, working in the desert to help produce fossil fuels for our cars..

[MPx]

When I got my Esprit it was my only car and took me 15k miles in each of the first two years.  I wasn't really rich enough to keep up with the resultant service schedule - every 6k - (I did it, but maxed out my credit cards as a result!) so I decided to get another car and do less miles in the Esprit.  All was fine while I was still doing 3 to 5 k a year, but as the years went by my usage got less and less and I don't think the car has run quite as well.  What I'm not sure of is how much is due to the car getting older vs how much is due to it not being used.  But I am clear that it all works better when its used more.  I took ownership at 14,678 miles in 1990 and it was at 83,206 at the last MOT having done just 1000 miles a year (or even less) for the last decade or so.  I do admire (as in love to see at shows) the well kept cars out there that don't get used, but there's no way I'd ever chose not to drive one of my cars so that it could be one of them - all of my cars are there to be used whenever I fancy, whatever the weather.  To me there'd be no point in having it if I felt I couldn't use it.

 

[Loquacious Lew]

Any car or motorbike I don't use routinely gets sold on.  They aren't investments. I don't buy them thinking they're so precious I have to keep them in a jewel box. Collector car mania, the whole package of silliness, is antithetical to what loving cars and driving is all about.  It creates a class of vehicles that can even appreciate from new, but only if you don't use them.  It's a form of insanity and greed that is particularly confusing s it squirrels away the joy and beauty and feeds the collector gene.  

 

Lotus' standout feature is in the drive making saving the car for a potential resale bonus antithetical to the singular reason we love them.  Anyway, as regards our cars, there are better returns to be had from a slew of other options.  Even  if one's in the business of investing in cars, there are better choices than most older Lotus models, and hundreds of options and any decent mutual fund is a better place  to seek profit than in a new or newer Lotus.  The same can be said for most recent cooking grade Porsche, Aston, Mercedes, BMWs, Maseratis, McLarens, and the list goes on.  

 

We have to remember that our cars are budget exotics, not collectibles.  Drive, maintain and enjoy!  Life is short, eat dessert first!

[andyj007]

An interesting post this one, of which i agree  with Jonnys post.

I think people dont really hang on to there cars these days for very long, always thinking about the next one,  so they are always thinking about the resale, instead of treasuring the car... and worrying about getting the maximum the when it comes to sell...

some people i know  think about selling their car more than they think about just how damn nice and fortunate they are to have it in the first place..  it stops them from enjoying it..

 

 

id also much rather a  well used driven car with great patina, take top  awards at car shows...  we all like to see shiney cars , im no exception, but id give a weighted higher percentage of marks to driven higher milage  cars..

i enjoy Harrys garage videos tremendously, it was fitting he won the concours in his car,  having driven all that way...  he loves  cars, is a true car enthusiast...and has now hesiattion about using them properly...   his testerossa road trip to the sararha was brilliant..

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by andyj007