Evora GT410 Sport launched

[DaveC72]

19 minutes ago, Suddabym said:

Right, stereos.  I’ve done some research and I’ve found a company that sells nice ones.  They are called Bang and Olphson (something like that).  Bad news is that they are proper pricey.  The good news is that they throw in a free Audi.  So, if it’s a stereo you want, don’t get a Lotus, coz they sell cars.

B&O: Famous for putting little bags of sand in their remotes to make them feel more "quality" than they actually are.  "Never mind the quality, feel the weight".  The very antithesis of Lotus.  

[Bruss]

15 minutes ago, Bravo73 said:

I think that you read Paul’s post wrong. I think that he was saying that he would have to pay £100k for a GT430 but it’s not worth that to him. 

The 430 optioned to my spec comes in around 130k. That car at 100k is doable, the base car at 100k isn't.

[Gashead1105]

43 minutes ago, Colin P said:

In a year or so, yes, I will almost certainly be thinking about whether to change the car and an Evora would be the likely choice, but not if it's going to cost me the best part of £30K. (upshot, probably keep the one I have)

I think you might find it costs you more than that. Unless I'm missing something, spec the 410 as a plus 2 its immediately 89.4k without any other option and that's if you go for the NCO 400 wheels... If you add A/C and both the exhaust and ohlins you are over 100k. Even without them, add a radio and A/C and some paint and you're at 95k. That seems a lot to me. However, I'm all for existing 400 owners making the change, because I'd rather like a second hand one for 55-60k (once the house is finished @Gm77 before you say anything!!!) 

[MrP_]

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I've owned various Lotuses for about 8 years or so and never once listened to the stereo in any of them! It's just not an issue for some people when buying a sports car. I'd rather spend the money on air-con!

It's not an issue for some people, but those people are rare, and when they look at the Evora view it as not really raw enough. If you are selling a GT targeted Sport Car, pretending your target audience are all track day heroes is a bit strange, your target audience is, whether we like it or not, 911 owners or potential owners. Who are generally middle aged men, with spare cash, who like a bit of comfort.

I agree it's just not an issue for some, some people really prefer just the sound of a Camry engine, some people just don't really have that relationship with music etc etc. But for buyers of a 100k car, a badly installed stereo that cost more than Halfords charge for the same kit will continue to make Lotus look like a bit of a joke against new buyers.

Not having basic kit that is expected in the price barrier is not a badge of honour, it just keeps new customers away. And new customers are needed if Lotus expect to sell more than a few hundred units each year. If people genuinely really wanted properly raw cars, not fat cars, all the 311's would have been sold, and new GT3's would not be worth more after they have been sold than new. Reality is the 311 I don't think reached it's target of 311 cars, and you couldn't even buy a GT3 unless your dealer knew you had bought several off them in the past. When you are at GT3 levels of loyalty you can then start taking the mick with a stereo

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by MrP_

[Snoopy1969]

2 hours ago, Bruss said:

My S was 62k list in September 2011, the equivalent 410 sport is 100k.  

For me the issue is what else I can get for 100k. If I want to upgrade from my current 2013 S the cost to change to something virtually the same is too much. I'd pay 100k for the 430, it is special but not 130k special. Similarly the 410 sport isn't 100k special. 

If I were coming to Lotus from another 100k marque such as Porsche is there anything to make me change? 

Add in the arguably better residuals on Porsche 'specials' then the Evora starts to look less and less attractive.

It is true of course that we may still be in the middle of a marketing shift and placement exercise by JMG to increase percieved value and I welcome that, but trying to do it with an old design powered by a Toyota truck engine may just be a bridge too far.

 

 

 

And therein lies the problem. Us existing owners think the cost to change is too much, so Lotus have to find new buyers. Where are they going to come from?

Exactly these Points stressed by Paul, on the continent it is even worse:

Actually there are 3 GT430 advertised by German Lotus Dealers all around list Price, having aircon and Stereo, all 3 are around € 161.000. If you have a MY 2012 - 2015 Evora S (even in nearly decent condition and low mileage) you will have to pay € 100.000 - € 115.000 plus your old Evora S (so the Money you have to spend to upgrade is higher than the Price of an new Evora S within 2012 - 2015..!) to stretch to the new Car. Surely you can see a lot of improvements more power etc (but also cheaper seats less leather etc) but to bridge the gap and justify it is v e r y hard in my eyes - in other words: the "new" pricing is an Argument to enjoy your old car even more ! 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

8 minutes ago, MrP_ said:

some people really prefer just the sound of a Camry engine

You must never use the "C" word on TLF! 

[21gg]

Yes, because its out of a Rav 4!

[C8RKH]

4 hours ago, The Pits said:

Especially with £3500 of Sparco seats thrown in.

Don't forget the squeaks per mile that are free with those seats!  

[Bibs]

That issue was fixed a while back now. 

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Colin P said:

In a year or so, yes, I will almost certainly be thinking about whether to change the car and an Evora would be the likely choice, but not if it's going to cost me the best part of £30K. (upshot, probably keep the one I have)

Depending on specification a 911 will be expected to hold around 60-68% of it's price after 3 years but is mileage sensitive. Asuming the average new price of an entry level 911 with a couple of extra's that would be around £82k new and £49k - £55k at 3 years old meaning depreciation of £27k to £33k.  Given the 911 is regularly touted as the lowest depreciating "sports car" I would say that your Evora 400 plus £30k to get you into a GT410 is bang on the money @Colin P and a rather good show from the Evora.

To be honest, doing the research and the maths I was surprised to come to that conclusion. And here is the rub for me, everyone seems to slag off the Evora or Lotus when it comes to value for money and regularly rolls out the same old tosh about how Porsche is so much better. There is a real perception that Porsche is where the "safe" money goes but for boggo 911's (as opposed to the limited supply and other specials) I'm just not sure how true that is.

I mean, how much did the GTE owners pay for their "specials" and I am sure the premium to buy now several years and a few thousand miles later is £20k+!

Looking forward to the inevitable slagging for being a fan boy but the reality is not the same as perception I believe. But also, not wanting to stuff another £30k into a new car is the reason I bought my 2010 NA at £31k and whilst it is still worth about that - i.e. cost me nothing - it is why I struggle with the man maths to throw £40-60k on top of that great car into a 400 or GT410.  I just do not value the "first owner premium" that highly or think it is that important.  The Hethel 400's were spectacular value with a lot being bought around the £68-£70k mark, but that still at the time would have been my car plus £30k+.  If you insist on new, in 98% of the cases you will lose a minimum of 30% and upto 60% of the car's value in 3-5 years. End of. It is just how it is.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

9 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I mean, how much did the GTE owners pay for their "specials" and I am sure the premium to buy now several years and a few thousand miles later is £20k+!

I paid £79,200 direct from the factory for my LHD GTE. It's the only 2+2 manual. Nice though a bit of perceived appreciation in value is, I am highly unlikely to sell it. From the moment I picked it up, I sort of knew I had reached the zenith of my car ownership history.

[Bibs]

I am very pleased to confirm that the TLF Long Term Test GT410 Sport is currently in build  

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

So that's why you were spotted wearing a borrowed suit at the factory...

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, MrP_ said:

It's not an issue for some people, but those people are rare

Hardly that rare as here is another one here!  The only thing I use my stereo for is the the Sat Nav with the speed camera alerts and the phone connection to make calls. The rest of the time i am listening to the sweet noise of the exhaust or the exhaust and engine ticking as i cools down.

If you want really good quality sound to listen to music either go to a concert hall or go home o you expensive and sensitive hifi.

As an example - my wife has new Qashqai. My one has a Corsa. i have a diseasel Clio airport/station car. All have the stereo's they came with as standard. Everything I listen to in any of these cars sounds exactly the same quality to me.  I cannot tell the difference.

It's a bit like wine. i can tell the difference between anti-freeze at £2 a bottle a decent claret or sauv blanc at £10 a bottle from the supermarket.  I sort of get it to £20 really. After that, well, it's just all the same providing its the type of wine I like.

[bosshog]

25 minutes ago, Bibs said:

I am very pleased to confirm that the TLF Long Term Test GT410 Sport is currently in build  

Jammy blagging b*gger you.

[C8RKH]

25 minutes ago, Bibs said:

I am very pleased to confirm that the TLF Long Term Test GT410 Sport is currently in build  

+0, Ardent Red, Aircon and no stereo please @Bibs. Make sure you run her in and look after her for me properly!

[The Pits]

Get in Boss, no less than you deserve. Good for you, potential owners and great for the site. 

Its going to be a hard one to hand back!

[MrP_]

46 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Hardly that rare as here is another one here!  The only thing I use my stereo for is the the Sat Nav with the speed camera alerts and the phone connection to make calls. The rest of the time i am listening to the sweet noise of the exhaust or the exhaust and engine ticking as i cools down.

If you want really good quality sound to listen to music either go to a concert hall or go home o you expensive and sensitive hifi.

As an example - my wife has new Qashqai. My one has a Corsa. i have a diseasel Clio airport/station car. All have the stereo's they came with as standard. Everything I listen to in any of these cars sounds exactly the same quality to me.  I cannot tell the difference.

It's a bit like wine. i can tell the difference between anti-freeze at £2 a bottle a decent claret or sauv blanc at £10 a bottle from the supermarket.  I sort of get it to £20 really. After that, well, it's just all the same providing its the type of wine I like.

Obviously this is getting massively off topic but a handful of people on a one make forum where you expect people to be more aligned with the brand is not really representative of the target market Lotus really want to go at. 

I am a massive fan of the marque but after having multiple lotus's as a daily driver for years, then taking a break and coming back to them - I would not claim my car tastes are not rare. I used the comparison with Porsche to make it a bit more aligned to their potential market, I am not saying they need an all singing all dancing setup - I'm saying 2 grand for a bad sounding radio is bad value. If there was a £400 option of a basic headunit, speakers and thats it great - just don't charge people £2k for that. No radio, uprated headunit with Nav, and then a top option with better speakers that actually sounded good would be a far better set of options if you want to persuade people out of their Porsche's, M cars etc. 

I personally appreciate having a reasonable sound in a car, that doesn't mean because me and various other people I know feel the same, then all Evora's should come with a perfect audiophile system! 

The comment was about the options needing to represent good value for money, appropriate to the target market, otherwise the brand will rely on existing owners until there are none left.

Edited January 12, 2018 by MrP_

[Gashead1105]

^^^ lot of sense in this...

@Bibs does this come with a basic radio as standard, and you pay the 2k for an upgrade, or is it a blanking plate and no speaker wiring if you don't pick the option? Or will lotus wire the speakers in so that all you have to do is take your brand spanking new car to Halfords on collection? I guess it would help with running in mileage...

@Bibs - also, jammy so and so. Going to keep the S1 as well? Perhaps you can bring it up to Colchester and I'll test drive it back to back with Greg's to give you both an impartial view...

Edited January 12, 2018 by Gashead1105

[M4rk]

I really like the look of the GT410 Sport and especially how many options can be configured!  This really gives a buyer the chance to spec from hardcore variant to softer/plusher GT variant.  I think that is a good thing and of course Lotus will charge more; that is the way all things go.  I think we need to get used to this new way of bringing out cars, it is very different from what Lotus have offered before but it is how many other marques operate.  I do wonder if dealers will reduce the stock cars they buy though, the last 18 months have been a bit tricky for them with all the new model launches.

In my short time of following the brand I've seen a lot of model updates and new variants but this has grown my confidence in the future of Lotus and makes me excited for what is coming next.  Yes, prices are rising steeply which does mean Lotus have to work very hard to compete at those price points.  I think they will need to work harder on modern tech, convenient access for example is pretty much on any car you can buy now, audio on GT/touring specced models definitely needs improvement, etc.  These are not deal breakers for us Lotus fans but they are some of the barriers to new owners looking to switch.

It is exactly one month since I collected my new 400 from Lotus Silverstone (which was a stock car).  When I was deciding to buy that car I expected that the 400 would either be discontinued or updated in some way for the new style front and rear, so I went in eyes open to that.  I reconciled my decision to buy the 400 knowing that any new model release in early 2018 would likely cost me significantly more and that would probably have pushed the purchase back.  I don't regret buying the 400, I am driving it now and enjoying it, yes I like the new style front and rear over the 400 but, truth be told, behind the wheel I cannot see that.  I agree with @The Pits I think Lotus will see how the GT410 Sport sells and likely the 400 will disappear within in a few months, then the range options fit well.   

@Bibs lucky you, we are not jealous!  I look forward to footage of your time with the GT410 Sport 

[Gadzooks]

According to 'how many left' I have one of the 15 manual Sport 410s currently registered in the country.  Hardly a big seller! So the new (better looking) GT version isn't going to do much to shift the basic supply/demand dynamic.  We are talking niche models of a niche manufacturer.  Consequently, I think any new models/variants that can persuade some new car buyers to jump into a Lotus is a good thing.  Having 'my car' replaced by a new variant after only being on sale for a year doesn't concern me.  

However, I would be interested to know how dealers are feeling about the current model roll out strategy.

[pete]

On 12/01/2018 at 15:06, Bibs said:

I am very pleased to confirm that the TLF Long Term Test GT410 Sport is currently in build  

being as how it is a TLF test does that mean we all get to drive and report

[Bruss]

3 hours ago, Gadzooks said:

According to 'how many left' I have one of the 15 manual Sport 410s currently registered in the country.  Hardly a big seller! So the new (better looking) GT version isn't going to do much to shift the basic supply/demand dynamic.  We are talking niche models of a niche manufacturer.  Consequently, I think any new models/variants that can persuade some new car buyers to jump into a Lotus is a good thing.  Having 'my car' replaced by a new variant after only being on sale for a year doesn't concern me.  

However, I would be interested to know how dealers are feeling about the current model roll out strategy.

I would imagine it will help shift the existing 410 stock. 80k seems a bargain.

[JayEmm]

Am I the only one wondering if JMG is planning to axe the base 400?

Having seen a few GT Evoras in the flesh, I actually really like the look, no complaints there at all. I also like that many of them they'll allow you to option up as luxurious or hardcore as you like (within reason).

My one real gripe is that I think for new people coming to the brand this naming convention seems to be even more confusing. I don't see why, like the 2017.5 Elise, this couldn't have just been the new 2018 Evora GT410, or Sport 410. Frankly given the heritage of the "Sport" moniker in Lotus history, I feel it is used way too liberally now.

I think it would have made more sense to have the 430 models combined under one name, with the option of a "touring package" a la everyone's favourite German Marque. But that's just me. 18 months on I'm still totally in love with my pauper's 400, so for those who commit to the new cars I am confident they won't be disappointed.

[C8RKH]

I can see the 400 staying with the new bumpers - the entry into the range with its spec and +2. Then, if you want a tad more hard core and carbon you can look up the range to the GT/Sport cars.

I think as a base package to rival the base 911 (which is £78k with no options) the 400 is an excellent starting position with the new bumpers. Without any carbon pieces I can't see the bumpers being that much more expensive that the current so Lotus just bolt them on, maybe a couple of interior tweaks, and voila, a cohesive model range for the Evora.

The "old" 410 Sport is still a fantastic car, as is the "old" 400. But then, I just fired up my S1 NA for the first time in a month and I still think that is fantastic too. It still smells like a new car too thanks to the interior upgrade I did.