Evora GT410 Sport launched

[blindside]

3 hours ago, JayEmm said:

My one real gripe is that I think for new people coming to the brand this naming convention seems to be even more confusing. I don't see why, like the 2017.5 Elise, this couldn't have just been the new 2018 Evora GT410, or Sport 410. Frankly given the heritage of the "Sport" moniker in Lotus history, I feel it is used way too liberally now.

I'm also confused by the naming approach. 'GT' and 'Sport' usually mean very distinct and different things. It will be interesting to see what the motoring press make of it.

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

The "old" 410 Sport is still a fantastic car, as is the "old" 400.

Please correct me if wrong but the Sport 410 only had a build window of around about 15 months or so. Longer obviously for the 400; from late 15/early 16 till now?  Buying anything brand new from Lotus currently is a very risky proposition. I bought my 410 to drive not as a 'garage queen' investment, but did not forsee this constant model tweaking kaleidoscope. With Lotus ownership It's clearly far more sensible to wait for nearly new/hardly used examples that either have not sold or rapidly been replaced within a few months. Although nothing new there.... and Lotus have their reasons.

Geely hopefully will start to exert a more stabilising influence but I hope that this latest move to GT Evoras by Lotus indicates a more strategic approach to the model range. The GT 430 is a fantastic car and it would be great to see it continue to get the attention it deserves at least for a little while longer.

[Likuid]

9 hours ago, blindside said:

  Buying anything brand new from Lotus currently is a very risky proposition.

I mean buying a new car always is, but I agree when I bought my 400 I did not see them changing the styling 6 months later since the 400 had only been out a few years and they had made the 410 Sport with the same styling. Especially since they kept the original styling for like 5 years.

I did buy the 400 new with the intention of waiting and seeing what Geely does with Lotus, which could be quite awhile., If I like it I will buy another Lotus and if I don't then I may look elsewhere. That is still the plan, but after this I will probably never but one new Lotus again. I do like the 400, which in the end is the most important thing, but this experience with these new models coming so quickly out of basically nowhere I have to admit has soured me a little bit.

[C8RKH]

I truly don't understand what the issue is here and why it has "soured" the ownership experience or the view of Lotus a little. Once you actually buy a new car, even before you have driven it, it is then a used model.  The key thing is remembering the reasons why you bought it in the first place surely.  The looks. The spec. The colour. The smell. The way it feels to get in to it. To drive it. the fact that it is a Lotus and that says something about you?

Why are we so obsessed with having to have the latest model?  We're falling victims to the marketing guff and paying through our noses for it too.

I went to my garage yesterday and for the first time in 4 weeks I opened it. Usual reasons for not doing it before (work, xmas holidays, work, shitty weather). I opened it up and there was my 2010 S1 NA Evora.  My heart actually fluttered as I had forgotten just how much I loved that car!  I disconnected the battery charger. I opened her up and jumped in and I felt like a child. My senses were in overload, full of the anticipation to come as I put the key in the ignition. She might be coming up to 8 years old but she smells like new thanks to the upgraded seats, interior re-trim and full length bespoke carpet in each foot well. I was truly back "home". Cradled in those venom red Recaro seats. I fired her up and she barked into life, first time. The hairs on the back of my neck stood to attention. All thoughts of swapping her in for a GT410 left me.  Nothing to do with how good the GT410 was or is. Nor the huge difference in the price that I would have to fill.  No, it was just that she was mine and we had unfinished business on new roads to deal with before we parted.

I love the new GT410 (and GT430's but they are way more than  I would ever pay for a car, great as they are). I love its looks from the outside. i think Lotus have done an amazing restyling job with it. I actually think at £85k in the UK (without options) it is a great price too to be honest and whilst it might be around £5k more than a base 911, well, the £5k would be worth paying knowing it was a Lotus, handmade in the UK, and not a mass produced German autobot.  But that is my view and I understand many would not agree and would be quite happy with the Porsche. That's fine, that's their choice.

So, again, I have no idea why Lotus bringing out the GT410 would or should sour your experience with the 400. You have the 400. A fantastic car to own. Go and sit in it. Appreciate it. And use it.  Are you married? If so, how did you feel a couple of weeks after your wedding night when you walked into a bar and clapped eyes on the upgraded version of your wife?  Yes, she caught your eye. But did it make you love your wife any the less? Did it sour the relationship? You were maybe seduced. You were maybe even tempted. But you didn't, as you knew what you had was great. 

2009 we had the Evora S1.

2015 the 400, the first major upgrade.

2016 we had the 410 Sport.

2017 we had the GT430 and GT430 sport

2018 we now have had the GT410 and likely styling refresh of the base 400.

Hardly a cascade of new Evora restyles is it really?  The perception is that they are coming out like bullets from a machine gun. The reality is different as really from a styling perspective, as opposed to special editions of the same shape,  we had the S1 in 2009 (original shape), S2 in 2015 (the 400 shape) and now the S3 in 2017 (GT430 shape).  Time we all got some perspective back in my very humble opinion and good luck Lotus in the sales.

[PaulCP]

I also don't understand what all the fuss is about. You can buy most cars in many different configurations and prices for the same brand & model and they tend to be updated for every new model year, or in some cases half year, so why not Lotus.

When I bought my S1, new in July 2015, I knew that the 400 was to be launched but was happy that I managed a decent discount on a run out model. I don't see it as an obsolete model = more rapid depreciation, and this is demonstrated by how strong S1 prices have remained.

My only concern is that Lotus are pricing themselves above what most people are willing or able to pay, and this is certainly true in my case. The thought of paying a "cost to change" which is equal or above the outright price I paid for new Evora S1 in mid 2015 is one that I'm not willing to contemplate. If that cost to change was lower then maybe I would consider it. 

I hope the current Lotus strategy is one that works for them, only time will tell if they've got it right or not. Selling 10 cars at a profit of £50k/car is not usually as good a business sense as selling 20 cars at a profit of £35k/car but no doubt they have done their market research and know exactly what their market is?

IMO, the Hethel Edn 400's are the ones that represented excellent value to the end customer but maybe they didn't to Lotus with many being sold at <£70k

[bosshog]

@C8RKH Simply because they bring out a new version, it's normally better (looks/performance/whatever). This for *some people means then end up comparing to their new model brought just a few months back which soures the taste somewhat and add some more depreciation instantly. If I'd brought a 410 recently I'd definitely be pissed.

I've been thinking about buying a new Evora, but I'm just not going to do it now. Too many price increase for just styling changes, too much fluctuation. I've been looking at GT4's instead.

[C8RKH]

4 minutes ago, bosshog said:

@C8RKH Simply because they bring out a new version, it's normally better (looks/performance/whatever). This for *some people means then end up comparing to their new model brought just a few months back which soures the taste somewhat and add some more depreciation instantly. If I'd brought a 410 recently I'd definitely be pissed.

I've been thinking about buying a new Evora, but I'm just not going to do it now. Too many price increase for just styling changes, too much fluctuation. I've been looking at GT4's instead.

I don't get this at all. You buy a new car KNOWING that it will be superseded at some point in the future - sometimes sooner, sometimes later. That is just a fact of life so why it should sour anything is beyond me. The alternative is NEVER to be a new car - which is what I usually do, then you do not get that issue at all.  First owner always pays a premium. That's just a fact of life and complaining about it is like complaining the sun goes down at night. Pointless.

You say too many price increases for styling changes but that is just pure bullshit in my humble opinion.

S1 - 400 - price went from circa £65k for a fully optioned S SR S1 to £75k for a fully optioned 400 - Hethel's were bought a lot at £68k-£70k. That brought a restyle, more kit, and more performance.

400 - 410 - £10k price increase included a whole bunch of carbon and a significant weight reduction with expensive wheels etc. A performance increase and revised suspension / carbon seats to give a more focused car

410 - GT410 Sport - no real price increase for a restyling (several 410's still for sale at £90k+ when the GT410Sport is based at £86k - £90k if you include ac and stereo)

400 - GT430/GT430 sport - a whopping £50k over the new 400 but as well as adding restyling, there is a huge amount of additional carbon, Ohlin adjustable suspension, titanium exhaust, massive weight reduction, massive investment in aero updates, etc etc.

In not one instance has it been "price increases for just styling changes".  There is a lot of stuff said even on here that reflects a persons point of view as opposed to the reality/facts in my humblest of humble opinions.

You can still buy a new stock 400 for around £70k I am sure right now (£76k list ish).  That is still one of hell of a car for the money. I am sure the "styling" will filter down to the base model but without the carbon and therefore I would expect the price to roughly stay the same. I'm sure we will see shortly either way.

No doubt we will have a 70th year set of specials for the Evora - when you look at the value of the Hethel then a 400 "70th" could be a real sweet spot in terms of volume, with more "upmarket" 70th year specials of the GT's I am sure.

Still do not really understand what all the fuss is about. As I said at the start, the issue will always be the same when you are the first owner of a new car - it is immediately 2nd hand and no longer new and likely to be replaced with either a full restyling or, as mentioned before, a MY update.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

All the American car manufacturers have been face-lifting / refreshing their model lines every year, pretty much since the dawn of motoring. It's what their customers expect. When Lotus makes a few changes to its models, such action is apparently deemed to alienate their existing customers. 

[Stubox]

Equally I can't understand why not within 2-6 months of just spending over £80,000 on a product only to find it replaced and upgraded you'd not be a little pissed/bitter/annoyed.

I assume those that are not understanding this issue haven't just bought a new Evora 410 or Exige Cup 380 ,  unlikely to be discounted heavily too as the dealers were not aware of the new model either.... By all means express opinions of disbelief/surprise at some of the grumblings but unless you are in this situation you've no idea what it feels like.

However overnight your new 'old' car hasn't become redundant, its still rather good isn't it ( both 410 and 380 Cup getting rave press reviews) .....its just internally you've got to overcome that bubbling annoying feeling of injustice ...and go for a drive  accept that eventually it would have been superceeded anyway and you've probably saved some money for trackdays , holidays , hookers etc etc.... 

 

[The Pits]

My guess is that the feedback Lotus got from the Sport 410 was that it had a lot of appeal but buyers opted for the 400 in greater numbers because of the 2+2 element, more conventional seats, lower cost and greater perceived value. The GT410 Sport appears to be consciously addressing all these things. It has GT430 Sport looks for a modest increase in price over the Sport 410. For someone seriously looking at a 400 there are now fewer reasons to rule out the 410 and more reasons to throw the extra at Lotus. Perhaps then, Lotus will be shooting themselves in the foot to offer a 400 with the revised bumpers at this stage? 

I think how it's supposed to work is that a £10k difference doesn't amount to much on a 50:50, yet I'm picking up on a strong aversion to paying much over £80k under any circumstances. It's pretty clear that most here don't consider the extra 10bhp worth paying for. I'm not sure many are even particularly bothered about a few kilos here or there when it comes to an Evora. The power to weight improvement offered by the Sport 410 didn't seem to resonate with buyers, most struggled to see past the headline power figure. It will be very interesting to see where how this one goes. If it bombs I think we'll see an all grp 400 with the new styling before the year's out. If it does well the range will soon start with 410bhp.

[LF1]

7 hours ago, Likuid said:

I did buy the 400 new with the intention of waiting and seeing what Geely does with Lotus, which could be quite awhile., If I like it I will buy another Lotus and if I don't then I may look elsewhere. That is still the plan, but after this I will probably never but one new Lotus again. I do like the 400, which in the end is the most important thing, but this experience with these new models coming so quickly out of basically nowhere I have to admit has soured me a little bit.

This would be my concern right now for Lotus, the Evora is the car for the US market and already they are upsetting the people buying them with the crazy model launch/replacement "strategy". Regardless of the fact in the US cars are denoted by their year and this is perceived as a change to the car. Those are minor tweaks to styling and equipment, not the significant updates to cars we are talking about here.

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, Stubox said:

I assume those that are not understanding this issue haven't just bought a new Evora 410 or Exige Cup 380 ,  unlikely to be discounted heavily too as the dealers were not aware of the new model either.... By all means express opinions of disbelief/surprise at some of the grumblings but unless you are in this situation you've no idea what it feels like.

Your assumption is correct, I haven't bought one. BUT, and here is the rub, if I was to buy one I would be buying the car i wanted AT THAT POINT IN TIME and for the money I was prepared to pay. you make your decision, you pay your cash and voila, you have a beautiful Lotus to play with

I don't think we will agree on this one as we have different views that are nothing to do whether it just happened to me or not.  I might still buy an "old shape" but new 410Sport as the +0 and the little more rawness appeals to me more than the "softer" 400.  I'd probably pull up alongside a GT410 and go "wow, nice car mate", but then I wouldn't have a sour view or look on my face. 

Andy, if I really wanted to, in 3 months or so's time i could add the GT410 front and rear bumpers to my S1 NA and have the benefit of the car i love with the new look. That's the benefit of buying Lotus just now, the styling changes can almost all be retrofitted.  What is there not to like and who apart from you would really know?

@The Pits - I'm a bit flummoxed as to why the 410 Sport did not seem to sell. I thought and still do think it is fantastic looking car and proposition. Given the choice between a 400 and a 410sport it would be the 410Sport every time for me.  I think though for the majority of Evora owners it seems that +2 really is the only way they want to go.  I'm sure they would happily have a +0 Fezza, or Cayman GT4, or McLaren but for some reason they would never consider a +0 Evora. Another one of life's little oddities to me.....

 

[21gg]

I need a +2 to throw my 7year old into at times ?. If I didn't have my GTE a 410 would now be on my radar as previously it wouldn't have been. Still  having to pay £3500 for the normal seats to get +2 does sting a bit. Shurley they can make a seat runner that can hinge forward to release the bucket seat to allow access.....Oh.......or maybe not!

Also if you want a 2 seat lotus track toy you get the exige, so the sport 410, although nodoubt a good car, was in a bit of a no-mans land.

Just my perspective, nothing against the 2+0 heathens 

[Bruss]

1 hour ago, 21gg said:

I need a +2 to throw my 7year old into at times ?. If I didn't have my GTE a 410 would now be on my radar as previously it wouldn't have been. Still  having to pay £3500 for the normal seats to get +2 does sting a bit. Shurley they can make a seat runner that can hinge forward to release the bucket seat to allow access.....Oh.......or maybe not!

Also if you want a 2 seat lotus track toy you get the exige, so the sport 410, although nodoubt a good car, was in a bit of a no-mans land.

Just my perspective, nothing against the 2+0 heathens 

Miserable old git here. Happy to have a plus 0. How do I remove the pax seat?

[bosshog]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

@The Pits - I'm a bit flummoxed as to why the 410 Sport did not seem to sell. I thought and still do think it is fantastic looking car and proposition. Given the choice between a 400 and a 410sport it would be the 410Sport every time for me.  I think though for the majority of Evora owners it seems that +2 really is the only way they want to go.  I'm sure they would happily have a +0 Fezza, or Cayman GT4, or McLaren but for some reason they would never consider a +0 Evora. Another one of life's little oddities to me.....

 

For me, the whole point of the Evora was its a GT car, i.e. air con, stereo , nice comfortable seats, +2, etc, otherwise I'd just get an Exige or Elise. The 410 is lightweight due to ripping out all the bits that make it a GT car. Nice carbon fibre, but thats its only +ve. So its 10K more expensive for a lesser of a GT car in my eyes. I suppose other people think the same. I'm sure its a lovely drive, but so is a Elise (more so IMO) at a 50% of the price.

 

 

[C8RKH]

The 550 and 575 maranello's were lovely GT's too. Both +0. 

The DBS was originally just a +0 and a truly magnificent GT car.

The AMG GT is a +0.

The R8 makes a good case as a great GT car and is also a +0.

Who decided that a truly great GT car had to be a +2? 

Let's be honest, 99% of the time they are never used for anything more than throwing bags on. 95% of the time I bet nearly every Evora is driven with only 1 person in it. 

The 410 is the only one out of all those above, and many +2's to boot, that you could drive from Dundee to Spa in a day. Spend the next day ripping the arse out of much more expensive cars on track. And then drive back home again.  The others would have shredded their tyres. Knackered their brakes. And burnt their clutches. So to ME (and that is the point I guess) the Sport410 is a truly magnificent GT car and is all the better for not having a stereo, though i would be weak willed and go for the aircon.

I'm also with @Bruss. How do i get the pax seat out?

Good job we are all brilliantly different as otherwise we'd be like sheep driving PVAG products.

[The Pits]

Now you can choose between +0 and 2+2 for all Evoras the debate is effectively over!

You can choose a softer, more road biased set-up with the touring pack or spec your car to hardcore trackday weapon precisely to counter the points raised against the Sport 410.

The Evora has GT capability compared to an Elise or Exige but really it's nothing like an Aston DB or Jaguar XK. It's a pure sports car, purpose built to devour corners and is never happier than when on a winding A-road. Many better cars for motorway slogs. It's really about compromise and where you want your car to be on the spectrum between stripped out racer and four wheeled sofa. The GT410 Sport offers more choice than any Evora before it in this regard. The difference between the most comfortable version and the most raw would be pretty sizeable.

 

[Likuid]

I never claimed to be the victim of any deception and that Lotus screwed me over. In the end I know the risks of buying a new car. Unfortunately for me exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen, did. 1 month later the GT430 was announced and it appears the new styling has already essentially trickled down to the 410, I wouldn't be shocked it it makes it to the 400 (sans CF). I said I would probably buy another Lotus, just not new. I also said I still like my 400.  Either way when I bought the 400 the plan was to see where Geely took them in 4 or 5 years. I just wish it was 4 or 5 years with the new styling. I like the 400 styling, but I really like the GT styling. I guess, here's hoping WinAce makes a good looking replica of the GT styling.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Likuid

[The Pits]

I guess then, that Russell Carr can be congratulated on a restyling of the Evora that everyone appears to like!

In truth, any of the current range is something incredibly rare and special. A guy posted on Facebook that there were only 36 Elise Cup 250's produced in 2016. That's worldwide! Some of them may begrudge the new Elise Cup 260 launch but everyone else, including me, is still going 'Wow a Cup 250!'. I feel much the same about the Evora 400. Such a rare and cool sight, it makes my day to see (and hear) one. I'll never forget the moment I first saw an Evora Sport 410. Breathtaking presence on the road. Looked truly amazing. Otherworldly. Hardly anyone else could have known what it was but most would have guessed 600+bhp Lambo or something of that nature.

We're dealing in very fine degrees of awesomeness between a Sport 410 and a GT410 Sport.

[Whitey]

Is the 20bhp and torque increase in the 430 over the GT410 Sport just down to mapping or are there any hardware differences to hit these figures. Could you upgrade (in power terms) from the 410 to 430 easily using Lotus soft/hardware as opposed to going to 3rd party tuners.

Not that I would find a 410 lacking at all, just wondering for the future

[Julian73]

2 hours ago, Whitey said:

Is the 20bhp and torque increase in the 430 over the GT410 Sport just down to mapping or are there any hardware differences to hit these figures. Could you upgrade (in power terms) from the 410 to 430 easily using Lotus soft/hardware as opposed to going to 3rd party tuners.

Not that I would find a 410 lacking at all, just wondering for the future

 According to parts list and Tech Center, a baffled oil pan and mapping.  Now I highly highly doubt that you will get the TC software to load as teh VIN number would not match, thus a need to go 3rd party.

[The Pits]

430 has different cam timing too so it's not just a simple boost increase. Komotec can take any of the chargecooled engines to over 470bhp without difficulty for those out prepared to take a chance with their gearbox and warranty if they still have one.

[andyj007]

"GT410 front and rear bumpers to my S1 NA and have the benefit of the car i love with the new look. That's the benefit of buying Lotus just now, the styling changes can almost all be retrofitted.  What is there not to like and who apart from you would really know"  

surely an S1 either s or na (2.0 only mind its a sports car after all)  with the above said bumpers, and a complete re trim of your choice  and a few noise mods, all for under 40K...  evan a rear spoiler for 2k...  

could be a very very nice car.

S1 GT280 or GT340  hybrid

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by andyj007

[Gadzooks]

Just to add to the debate over Evora = GT and Elise/Exige = track.  I spent several happy days at the Lotus academy ragging all the cars including the Sport 410 that they had used at the launch in Geneva.  For me the most competent car on track was the Sport 410.  It felt more stable under braking and you didn't have to man handle it through the corners.  The fact that it had enough luggage space for a weekend away (even with golf clubs) and you could get in and out of it and maintain your dignity sealed the deal.  I tried hard to love the Exige but I couldn't.  For me the Sport 410 is perfect.

[JayEmm]

On 1/15/2018 at 10:00, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

All the American car manufacturers have been face-lifting / refreshing their model lines every year, pretty much since the dawn of motoring. It's what their customers expect. When Lotus makes a few changes to its models, such action is apparently deemed to alienate their existing customers. 

I think the point there though is there was a schedule, and a predictable one. Apple do exactly the same. That's good business, from their perspective.

I believe people's issue with the recent Lotus launches has been a totally inconsistent release strategy - could not one of these cars have waited for Geneva maybe? Will they even be there?

There was what, two weeks between GT430 and GT430 Sport release. That in particular made no sense - release simultaneously, or a very long time apart surely?

 

As an aside, I did some looking earlier over Ferrari and McLaren price lists. You can add an entire Evora 400 in options to their cars. 

[C8RKH]

44 minutes ago, Gadzooks said:

Just to add to the debate over Evora = GT and Elise/Exige = track.  I spent several happy days at the Lotus academy ragging all the cars including the Sport 410 that they had used at the launch in Geneva.  For me the most competent car on track was the Sport 410.  It felt more stable under braking and you didn't have to man handle it through the corners.  The fact that it had enough luggage space for a weekend away (even with golf clubs) and you could get in and out of it and maintain your dignity sealed the deal.  I tried hard to love the Exige but I couldn't.  For me the Sport 410 is perfect.

Best post on the forum for ages. Thanks @Gadzooks. Sums up why I would have a 410.