Evora GT410 Sport launched

[C8RKH]

I really don't get this @jonnyboy as you seem to make a reasonable living out of selling Lotus special editions (and other Lotus cars)!

At the end of the day, the depreciation overall on Lotus cars is actually quite low and after 10 years they seem to start going the other way.  There is such a low volume of cars sold that you could argue that every individual car sold is actually a "special edition" as I doubt these days no two cars that come out of the factory are actually the same.

Special Editions and Lotus are nothing new. With regards to new models, well, we're actually confusing new models with cars that mostly have upgraded engines and new aero.  I mean, the latest 430 CUP shares the same underpinnings and chassis as the first V6S does it not? So it is not a new model, but a new variant.

When you compare to Porsche, their model numbers are for "platform" changes are they not?  Also, Lotus offers around a dozen "different" cars (e.g. 4 x Elise, 5 x Exige, 4 x Evora). Go onto the Porsche website and you will see a minimum of 23 different variants of a 911, before you think about any extras or customisation. Porsche never gets slated for that nor when they bring out the latest GT or whatever which extends the range - isn't that all that Lotius has done with the 430's? Extend the upper limit of the range as opposed to a new model launch. Most people expected a 430 based on the 311 engine at some point.

It seems that even people who buy and make a living out of Lotus cars still struggle to buy into the brand. I might be wrong though. I admit that.

 

 

[jonnyboy]

I don't think you are wrong about that but why was I in a Porsche in the first place? I should be easy to convert as you correctly point out I'm involved with the brand I love Lotus but forget about me I should have been converted ages ago. Success will come from converting people from making the mistake of buying something else but Lotus are unable to send out a coherent message about just what it is they offer. You only need to watch any youtube review or read and article and the whole press always makes reference to the xyz being the latest special edition with eyes rolling. I mean we had multiple special editions for Lotus having being in the same premises for 70 years. Whats that all about? Just have a range and get the message out there. 

In a nutshell I think people with previous experience of Lotus struggle to justify new ones for a couple of reasons:

The older cars are just so good they haven't really been improved upon in terms of driving experience. I mean how can you really improve on an Elise dynamically? Thats a tough tough nut to crack. 

The other reason is that on the face of it they seem expensive. I say on the face of it because this is something I was wrong about before I started shopping in the price bracket that the 410 is there isnt actually that much out there for people that like proper drivers cars. I just watched a review of the new Renault Alpine this morning. Its 60 grand specced up!  Why would anyone in their right mind pass a new V6 or 400 Evora over for one of those? Because people at large don't know about Lotus. The 400 is such a leap forward in terms of quality, fit/finish is all absolutely first class. Its the best car on the market that nobody buys. 

[jonnyboy]

Oh the other thing to do too would be to lower RRPs and at the same time drop heavy discounting.  That would build a bit of confidence. 

[The Pits]

I agree that the rate of updates is not doing much for the confidence of existing customers but I think keeping Lotus in the car mags with new models is part of a plan to attract new buyers with deeper pockets. It's unclear how successful that's been but I'm sure we all agree that it would be better to slow down the rate of new launches and invest in the brand. Funny though, Alfa axed the whole marketing budget and made the 8C instead and were widely praised for it.

But I don't think that the Porsche approach, which is regularly mentioned in these discussions, would have worked for Lotus. It's possible that without the recent levels of activity, the Geely deal might not have happened. Attracting new investment was always the objective. The Porsche practice of detuning perfectly good engines to allow for token 10bhp increases during the model life isn't something I'd like to see adopted, nor a design language so locked-in and conservative that you already know what the new version is going to look like. Did the Cayman GT4 surprise anyone? Did the gen 2 GT3? Lotus are perhaps too much the other way at the moment but better than being bland. They need to be bold to get noticed at all. It's much like the established Golf R versus the upstart Civic Type R. Golf has to be conservative to maintain the sales figures. Honda has to be outrageous to try and put a dent in them.

The Evora 400 remains unchanged since 2015, at virtually the same base price too, Exige Sport 350 is also approaching its 3rd year unchanged. If Lotus had only stuck to that it would feel like stagnation, let alone soldiering on for another two years. I'm all in favour of a calming down the rate of model updates, especially with the Geely deal in the bag, but not in favour of copying what Porsche do.

Updating the Sport 410 rather than the Evora 400 is an interesting move for sure. No doubt the margins are better with the 410 so they're trying to tempt potential 400 buyers into a higher margin car by addressing all the things that stopped people going for the Sport 410. I can see the sense in that. I'm sure that if the updated 410 does really well (and once the dealer stock has been cleared) it will help firm up the values of the original one which is what most people seem to be most concerned about.

As for special editions, that goes all the way back to the Esprit S2! Moaning about special editions (from all brands now) started on Pistonheads some years ago and now it's just what people do. There have been some great ones - for example Elise Sportsracer, Elise Type 25, Exige Scura, Exige Type 72, Exige LF1 which command a premium in the used market so I just see this moaning as sheep-like behaviour. I think abusing the limited edition tag is another matter though. Many car brands do this, Lotus is an usual case in that they often make less than the limited number such as the 311! But once a gravy train gets going it proves irresistable for most car makers to not chuck out another 500 in slightly different form. All the companies should stick to what they originally planned which was the basis on which they sold the car in the first place.

[jonnyboy]

Yeah I'd certainly agree that the Porsche approach to the model lineup wouldnt work for anyone but Porsche. Its very clever how they do it and they must have a whole team of people working out what to take and add to the models. Each change is just nice enough to tempt you it really is very clever. 

 

[The Pits]

Doesn’t do much for me personally. Detuning the Cayman GT4 was so lame, especially when you hear it runs out of puff at high rpm. Should have had the 400 bhp Carrera S engine from the start. They actually paid engineers to take some power away! Balls to protecting the 911, Porsche should stop fannying around and put the 9,000 rpm GT3 motor in the Cayman. Now that would be some car. Probably just as well that they won’t!

Competence and capability are not all there is to a fast car. 911 Turbo is a great example of ‘fast but so what?’ Slower GT3 is a much more exciting, engaging car to drive. Similarly, the list of cars that are faster than an Evora Sport 410 is much greater than the list of cars that are more enjoyable to drive. Still a big fan of the way the original one looks too, especially in a dark colour.

 

 

[TheKevlarKid]

Makes me wonder with all the new releases of late if plans for brand new models has been brought forward now Geely have taken over.

What we would have seen coming out from 'old' Lotus over the next 4-5 years is what we are seeing being played out now over a much shorter time scale in a bid to eek as much out of the old stuff before the new arrives. ( I hope this is the case)

Certainly as an existing customer there is nothing that excites me enough in their current range to spend the sort of money theyre asking for new cars. I've pretty much done everything they've had on offer for the last 20yrs in one form or another, and for me to part with more cash it has got to be something new, not just a re-hash of a 10-20 year old design in the Evora and Elise.

[The Pits]

Second guessing Lotus is a favourite past time on here of late but I think we are at the stage of penultimate model updates before the all new cars arrive. So I think we'll see a last hurrah for all the platforms in terms of being lighter and more powerful. Then that's your lot.

Next gen cars might be the best things since sliced bread or they might be more ordinary. Most likely 4 cyl turbos with paddleshift autos and easier access, better visibility, TFT screens, interior tech, obligatory iPad sticking out of the dash. Probably better all rounders and easier to live with but also possibly less focused, less pure drivers cars as a result. I'll always wish Lotus every success but right now I've got my eye on the run out models of the current range more than the next generation cars. In order to get those right I suspect they'll have to do something that won't appeal to me as much.

A lot seem to assume that newer will automatically equal better. But does it? Is the 718 Cayman/Boxster better than the 981? Is the Ferrari 488 better than the 458? BMW appear to be losing something from a pure driving point of view with each new generation of M3 since the E46, some would argue the E30! The newer cars are usually faster but are they really offering more in terms of driving pleasure?

 

[C8RKH]

Biggest problem I  see @The Pits is that for the majority having the right badge wins over driving experience/pleasure/etc.

I do hope Lotus stays true to its heritage.

[TheKevlarKid]

@pits

Balls in Lotus court as they say. If they come out with new models that are exciting and desirable enough to make me want one then i'll buy one...  if they don't, I wont!! I truly hope they do, mind. 

[Bruss]

43 minutes ago, TheKevlarKid said:

@pits

Balls in Lotus court as they say. If they come out with new models that are exciting and desirable enough to make me want one then i'll buy one...  if they don't, I wont!! I truly hope they do, mind. 

Much the same feeling here. I get bored with cars easily and so have been looking for a change for the last 18 mths plus. I just can't find anything that is better to drive or is affordable to mod and take on track. A completely new, improved Lotus would get my money. I was almost convinced by the 430 concept but it really is not new. Yes it looks to be an improvement on mine, but it's not that different to justify an 80k cost to change. A new car with better weight distribution and drive train, learning from the Evora, would have me. 

 

[Chris J]

12 hours ago, The Pits said:

 

Next gen cars might be the best things since sliced bread or they might be more ordinary.

 

Hopefully they emulate the approach of the new Alpine rather than Porsche... 4 cylinder turbo is probably inevitable in the Elise but hopefully not in the Exige & Evora.

[C8RKH]

4 cylinder turbo served Lotus very well for a quite a while!  Just saying, it's in the DNA!   However, for an Evora/Esprit type of thing then a v8, v10,v12 with twin turbo's, twin superchargers and KERS and ERS and around 1,000 bhp per tonne would be OK. Oh, but as it's a Lotus can they make it for £50k as it's only plastic anyway and the interior will never be as good as a Porker.  People would still moan..........

[Snoopy1969]

On ‎24‎.‎01‎.‎2018 at 12:53, Bruss said:

Much the same feeling here. I get bored with cars easily and so have been looking for a change for the last 18 mths plus. I just can't find anything that is better to drive or is affordable to mod and take on track. A completely new, improved Lotus would get my money. I was almost convinced by the 430 concept but it really is not new. Yes it looks to be an improvement on mine, but it's not that different to justify an 80k cost to change. A new car with better weight distribution and drive train, learning from the Evora, would have me. 

 

@TheKevlarKid @Bruss

exactly this, the calculation of @bruss , Exchange Money needed for "upgrade" s1 - 430 meets my calculation ca. 80 K GBP / 100 K Euro........ to say it in a positive way: the original Evora S (s1) is too good to justify this huge amount as an additional cost for changing / "upgrading" (thinking of the red GTE of @TheKevlarkid I would also speak of an Change only, the GTE (no matter if ist an "original" one or not) has ist own character!

[The Pits]

Yes but your 'all new' car will also cost a huge amount more than an Evora S1 too and will never be enough of an 'improvement' to justify the extra cost.

What would a new platform car need to justify an £80k cost to change over an Evora S1? The equation always says the same thing. Keep your current car.

Being objective a fast Golf has most bases covered. Everything after that is subjective and to do with emotions. Just as well, you need those to cloud your judgement and make rational thoughts disappear!

 

[TheKevlarKid]

5 hours ago, The Pits said:

Yes but your 'all new' car will also cost a huge amount more than an Evora S1 too and will never be enough of an 'improvement' to justify the extra cost.

What would a new platform car need to justify an £80k cost to change over an Evora S1? The equation always says the same thing. Keep your current car.

 

 

???

Nobody would ever buy a new car in that case and we'd all be running round in Model T's still.. Things move on, people want the latest and greatest and are prepared to pay for it. 

If you look at the original S1 elise from over 20 years ago it still underpins 75% (not sure of the exact figure but I bet it's not far off) of their product today. Fair play for them to getting so much out of it, it is still  very modern tech in reality with its construction but it it's been done to death now. Again it's time for something new!! 

The comments above (all from evora owners )is simply because there is more in common between a S1 evora and a evora 410/430 than there isn't. 5yrs ago a fully spec'd S1 sports racer with custom paint would set you back 70k tops (@timmarra), a 430 to the same sort of spec today would be at least 55k more new (that's the price of a bum basics sports racer on top again). You wouldn't think about it had you not owned one before and wanted a new Evora today (of any type) but if you were already sitting on one it is very hard to justify the massive cost to change into what is essentially the same as you've got albeit a bit quicker, lighter, nicer to look at, etc. 

 

[C8RKH]

The cost to  change is no worse than a brand new Porker 911 owner trading in 5 years later for the top of the range model.

For some reason us Evora owners think that Evoras should have their own unique economic model.

We're nutters. It also explains why I bought my Evora at 5 years old and 15k miles. I saved around £30k in depreciation. Some people like new and are happy to pay for latest, greatest when new. That's ok too.

Anyone bought a Gt410 Sport in Ardent Red they intend to use lightly over the next 5 years yet? 

 

[jonnyboy]

I think inside every Porsche driver theres an Evora driver waiting to get out. 

I'm surprised at my own decision really. I love Porsche they ooze history and sound/look great. Underneath they are just a car that has issues etc like any other but they also suffer a little in my eyes from the same pricing issue as Lotus. Its a big old slab to outlay for a new one with even a regular 991S costing a six figure sum.  They lean heavily on the halo effect of the GT cars IMHO. 

It will be interesting to see what the fanboys on Pistonheads have to say as I have been wittering on about getting a GT car for a while but when it comes to actually laying the wedge down I can just about wrap my head around the fact that a new 410 can be compared to a GT4 or GT3 (this will make Porsche fanboy's heads explode)  but its approaching half the price of a 2 year old 991. Some may be sniffy about the badge but Lotus oozes its own history too and I dont think theres anything wrong about being a bit bullish about that as we do have proper heritage on a par with Porsche. I also like cars that are slightly unusual and no doubt the Evora is a bit less ubiquitous than a GT4 or 911. 

I'll reserve final judgement until I have had a bit of time with it but my old 987 is a big pair of boots to fill. 

[hosscartwri]

On 15/01/2018 at 16:15, The Pits said:

Now you can choose between +0 and 2+2 for all Evoras the debate is effectively over!

You can choose a softer, more road biased set-up with the touring pack or spec your car to hardcore trackday weapon precisely to counter the points raised against the Sport 410.

The Evora has GT capability compared to an Elise or Exige but really it's nothing like an Aston DB or Jaguar XK. It's a pure sports car, purpose built to devour corners and is never happier than when on a winding A-road. Many better cars for motorway slogs. It's really about compromise and where you want your car to be on the spectrum between stripped out racer and four wheeled sofa. The GT410 Sport offers more choice than any Evora before it in this regard. The difference between the most comfortable version and the most raw would be pretty sizeable.

 

A storey of one man's journey towards (not there - yet) an Evora GT410 Sport purchase.

Fascinating to read the comments and analysis on this thread. Three years ago I sold my 1 year old gen 2 Cayman S because, brilliant car though it was, it was too good for it's own good on UK speed limited roads. To generate any real feel, and to me this is the point of a sports/GT car, you had to drive it at lengthy driving ban speeds. Of course I took a bath selling it but to replace it I bought an Elise S and literally smile every time I drive it - a brilliant car with huge amounts of feel and feedback as everyone here knows. It doesn't matter how old the basic design or the chassis, it does what it says on the tin and does it wonderfully.

With the Cayman I could go away for weekends and not cook clothes, melt the wife's cosmetics and could get more than a toothbrush plus a change of socks and underpants into the car. Like many, I had lusted after a DB9 for years just for the looks of the car and the sound of the V12 engine. Warped logic, man maths, 2 + 2 seating (ha ha) and emotionally clouded thinking enabled me to "justify" a lightly used DB9. After all, we could go away for weekends! So I bought one. A lovely car, looks gorgeous, you feel like a million dollars, great sound, very comfortable, gobbles up the miles and has enough space for luggage but, in my opinion, it is much more Grand Tourer than sports car and lovely car though it is, it does not talk to you like a Lotus does. 

After a while real maths began to kick in alongside a niggling voice (mine, not the wife's!!) asking if I can really justify two toys just for my personal indulgence - answer - not really! So, along comes the Evora 410 and Jamie Matthews at Bell and Colvill. He had previously encouraged me to try the 400 (who said Lotus dealers have to be forced to let you test drive their cars and don't really want to sell you a car!!??) and let me loose in one for a while - I loved it but to me the level of real life practicality didn't really rise that much above the Elise S. Come along to our Goodwood track day and try the 410 - you will love it says Jamie last summer (the invitation was probably aided by the fact that my brother in law was looking at a track day car and the 3-11 was on his list and was to be at Goodwood).

How right he was. The 410 is a great looking car, fantastic grip, awesome brakes, good feel from the road/track, manual gear change lovely to use, sound track pretty good. I think this car had the touring set up and I am guessing was probably the one tested at Castle Combe against an Exige V6 Cup where it fared very well. Anyway, after my ham fisted two track sessions, Jamie invites me to be his passenger and, despite his feeling that the tyre pressures were wrong (later confirmed), I could not believe that a road legal car could slow down so rapidly without ever troubling the ABS and corner so hard as well as doing the basics of accelerating and travelling rapidly. This was really really impressive.  

At about this time Aston Martin began ramping up the teasing about their new V8 Vantage. No pricing was being talked about but the performance and driver focus was being pushed and much speculated on in the motoring press. A pipe dream or just might the man maths etc. PCP etc. etc. be made to work? Still don't know but an idea was beginning to to formulate - could I combine two cars in one. A manual roadster with weekend or longer capability, driver focus, feedback and comfort. If I could, the man maths may be simpler! 

It turns out that this is all rather academic as apparently first deliveries of the paddle shift coupes are due in April/May and no one seems to know when the manual will be launched or when the roadster/volante will come to market though guesses are that it will not be for 18 - 24 months. 

So, back to the drawing board in a way but the debate over selling the Elise and DB9 and, pricing aside, trying to combine the attributes of both cars in one replacement toy won't leave my head. Then along comes the Evora GT430 Sport. For me it seems very sensible of Lotus to offer this version without the spoiler as I am too old for that level of 'flash' no matter the aerodynamic benefits - not that I would drive fast enough to really feel them. Anyway, the looks do it and ramp up the above debate. 

Then Lotus produce what to me may be their master stroke - the Evora GT410 Sport - equally gorgeous but with a price tag which is psychologically a great deal better than that of the 430. A trip to Bell and Colvill beckons and on a Saturday with filthy weather, I head over there.

'The Pits' has it sport on - yes, you can have 2+0. Apparently it is best to specify the Sparco seat option - they tilt forward. The luggage area where the two rear seats would otherwise be is usefully large and includes a restraint. There is also still useful boot space behind the engine. Yes, you can specify leather and it doesn't have to be black. Yes, you can have the touring suspension. Air con - apparently Lotus now encourage fitting this as a cool driver is a better driver. 

Again as The Pits says, the Evora GT410 Sport has GT capability and whilst it is not in the style of a Aston Martin DB or Jaguar XK, for someone who wants a car to provide the feel and feedback of a sports car but to do so with a reasonable level of practicality and comfort, particularly if specified appropriately, I reckon Lotus have probably hit the spot.

The price? Well, it ought to have a decent ICE unit and aircon as standard but leaving that aside, what is the competition? Porsche 911 - pre electronic steering they gave good feedback at sane speeds but not any longer and the more driver focused variants cost considerably more than the Lotuses,  McLaren 540 or 570 - I've not driven one yet but they are reputed to offer good driver feedback etc. but they are in a different league price wise and are, apparently, expensive to maintain, Ferrari - again in a different league price wise, Aston Martin - the base new V8 Vantage is £120,900 though it does come with a good level of high quality standard kit but you probably wouldn't be offered delivery before the end of this year.

So, to my simple mind, whilst the price points of the Evora GT410 Sport and GT430 Sport are undoubtedly high, particularly compared to Lotus' other offerings, when you look at the competition, the performance on offer, the real driving pleasure and feel combined with a reasonable level of practicality and comfort (particularly if you go for the heretic options!) these Lotuses seem to me to be in a league of their own.

Very sadly, what Lotus have continued to fail to do is make enough noise and/or educate/convince a sufficient number of influential journalists to really understand and write about where Lotus outscores the opposition and why, in sports and GT cars, what Lotus offers is important and why the P marque singularly fails to match up where it really matters in these types of car - feel, feedback, cornering pleasure . Granted they compete well on pure acceleration and speed.   

If you are still awake - thank you - and minor rant over.

   

[Bruss]

42 minutes ago, hosscartwri said:

The price? Well, it ought to have a decent ICE unit and aircon as standard but leaving that aside

This is the point about Lotus and GT cars. It really really ought to be complete at this price point. Most can't and shouldn't have to 'leave this aside'.

 

 

[hosscartwri]

Bruss - I do not disagree at all! What I ought to have added is that the lack of aircon and a decent stereo etc. have correctly been highlighted but have been done to death on this thread hence my inclination to leave it aside.

[The Pits]

You've clearly put a lot of thought into the whole process and come across as very considered, rational and fair, it didn't read like a rant at all. Not by internet car forum standards anyway!

Great post. 

GT410 Sport will be very special, and will look amazing for sure. Pictures just don't do the revised Evoras justice. Did you price up a GT430 Sport for comparison?

 

[hosscartwri]

Thank you.

No, I haven't fully priced up a GT430 Sport in comparison because the starting point is a £20,000 difference which clearly equates to £1,000 per BHP. Whilst I am one of those sad people afflicted by the desire to tend to want the top model or top variant in a range, I reckoned that £20,000 for 0.3 of a second difference in 0 - 60 mph times is money I could put to better use elsewhere as, in real world use, the difference is minimal and the number of times I would rag the car out hard to its limits would be relatively few and far between.

To be fair, I have not compared torque figures and I don't know whether a 430 is going to pull significantly harder than a 410 will from lower down the rev range and/or at the top of the rev range but looking at the 0 - 60 times where I assume 60 mph is hit after one gear change and well up the rev range in 2nd gear in both cars, I think it is unlikely that I would feel cheated in the 410. If anyone out there knows any different then I would be interested to hear your thoughts.    

[The Pits]

I was interested to know the difference between them once spec’d, I had imagined it might be closer once you start adding the options.

Having been fortunate to have driven both,  the 430 engine is definitely worth paying something for but of course nowhere near £20k! The main benefit comes from a broader spread of torque but the more peaky 410 engine counters by being fun in its own right. The last 1500rpm are the most exciting so you have a terrific crescendo in power and noise. For two cars of equal weight I would expect the 430 engine to be worth a bit more against the clock than the 20bhp difference  suggests because it feels like it makes more than that in comparison in the mid range. But I’m only going on feel, I have no figures to back it up. 

In reality it’s not a great difference of course both are very quick cars for sure.

Bibs will soon be the man to talk to about the GT410 Sport, he has one on the way very soon.

[jonnyboy]

Price of the 430 was another nudge for me on the 40. If thats going to be the pricepoint they are aiming for its starts making these special versions look like a bargain and the standard 400 is a steal.