New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[Simon Bateman]

49 minutes ago, jonnyboy said:

Clearly this is far from ideal.  That said, carbon fibre as a product is still a bit organic and I've seen greater weave variation, albeit on smaller surface areas.

The problem with a large panel like a roof, is that it's not only a big panel, but it's a focal point of the car and one that often seems to catch the sun first.  It's like a car park dent in that you can't seem to take your eyes off once you know it's there.

My 400 isn't perfect.  There are bits where the paint isn't quite right and very small finishing issues, but with my engineering background (rightly or wrongly) I tend to look at an issue and think through the implications of getting it fixed.  Often it's literally more trouble than it's worth and it would seem in the case of the roof, not really possible without almost ruining the car.

In my brief period of ownership I've sort of come to the conclusion that Lotus in their minds are first and foremost still selling 'drivers' cars, but as prices increase, so do customers expectations and they don't seem to maybe have fully embraced that.

I could be wrong of course, but although customers are still buying 'drivers' cars, they also want them to be perfect, or certainly a lot nearer to being perfect than the roof above. 

With the rise of McLaren in recent years, I also think customers are now also looking at Lotus in a more comparable light, particularly in say the 430 v the 540c and the future of Lotus rests on not only their existing customer base, but also attracting potential McLaren customers and also those looking for something different than Porsche.

I think Lotus are closer to getting things right than we sometimes give them credit for, but for me the next stage in their progress is more of a realisation of the standards that the newer customers will expect.

 

[Ratman]

the defect on your roof is due to trimming operation, not lamination.

when they went preparing the roof for the painting, they went too deep with sand paper.

it does affect only the look, but it should be rejected or re skinned.

where I work, we do carbon look parts for French-German cars (and others) and they are going to check every square mm. this kind of defect is not tolerated.

[jonnyboy]

42 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Jonny, I think you are letting the emotions take over here, understandable I know (as acknowledged before), but not fair. I was very clear about the failings not being acceptable and pointed out clearly the four "failure points"  that allowed it to happen and where the responsibility for each lay. I even declared that I had a similar issue on my roof (I never said it was OK, I said I could live with it - a big difference - I have been very clear that the major thing that has pissed me off hugely is the fact that the dealer screwed through my carbon lip at the front, 5 times to put a bloody number plate holder on DESPITE me asking them not to - see picture below of the vandalism inflicted! - so again, not blinkered, not hiding things).

I also did not suggest to sit on the issues - again the long term and future issue resolution is clear - the suppliers need to up their game, Lotus QC needs to up its game and the dealers need to do proper and thorough PDI's BEFORE the cars get to the customer. Get all these four things done and 99% of the issues you have raised will disappear. Again, this is not being blinkered nor throwing the issues under a rug to be ignored.

I get that you are pissed off. I truly do. I agree that @Bruss has hit the real issue on the head - they cannot change the roof - and also agree if they had just been honest about it with you, and come to a compromise (sounds like you are worried about future resale so money) you'd have been happy? But I do expect the Dealer to be dealing with this and keeping you informed and getting the answers etc. That is THEIR job.

My roof is not perfect but it is not bad. I'm hugely pissed off re the front lip. But, in the big scheme of things I love the car. I love owning it. I love driving it. I bought it for the long term, so, I live with it and I do not believe a couple of carbon weave issues below the lacquer will affect the future value of the car at all. But then I have written off the purchase price anyway. That cash is gone. It's dead to me. It's in the past - that is just how I am - I agonised for months re spending the money, but once justified and spent, well, decision made. Job done. It's gone. If I was worried about a return, I'd have kept it in the ISA etc. ISA's for savings, cars for drivings.  Simple life outlook. I'm happy with that. You might not be. But that is OK. i am not judging your stance or mine as the better one at all.

I've got no problem with you being a mouthy Northern Git either. I'm a fat grumpy foul mouthed big Northern Git and am quite happy to snap at stuff and point out the error of ways. However, I also like to think I bring a bit of fairness and balance to it too - pointing out the positives and the negatives rather than just focusing on the negatives - but then I have always been a glass half full type of guy. Life for me is too short to be anything but.

I do hope you get the issues sorted to your ultimate satisfaction. I can assure I really do. Not least because I think as a long term owner and a manufacturer/supplier you will probably build upon your eagerly awaited seat brackets and maybe come out with more useful stuff for the Evora in the future.

 

 

 

One of the settings is for audible warnings. if you look at the satnav you can set it up for all sorts of warnings including the signs - so if on, it will beep for:

1. Caution re sharp bends (the triangle with the curve on it)

2. Entering a school zone (the triangle with kids on it)

3. Caution deer (the triangle with the deer on it)

4. Beep when you are exceeding speed limit of the road

5. Beep for speed camera sites

6. etc etc etc etc.....

You can have a play in the settings and switch these things on/off (even if you have satnav voice on) and between visible (shows the sign) and visible and an annoying little shit of a beep! (but you can ajust the volume of the beep too). So, all customisable to personal preferences. IF, you have the time!

 

Crikey that's a mess! Why is that OK? Why is the roof OK? 

It's not a question of being emotional over it I'm a car dealer we have extremely thick skin and I have a patience level that I doubt many regular punters would have. I just wanted it to be right that's all. Nothing more. There are a couple of other bits on the car I have never mentioned before. It came with a chip on the CF on the central access panel. It's not that noticeable I haven't even mentioned it. There is a small section of paint on the rear bumper where the body shop guys have over buffed it. Such a small imperfection and it's not visible so again I haven't mentioned that either. I would again come back to the fact the tailgate was swapped with no issue or pushback from the factory (easy job) the roof is obviously more of an issue as I feared (hard job) I must confess I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not checking over it more carefully when I picked it up as obviously this kind of thing is what I do for a living but new car..guard down etc never thought it would be a problem. The general standard of the paint and other fit and finish is superb so there was nothing on first glance to raise any suspicion to be honest. 

I have a suspicion they may have changed suppliers as the carbon on the GT410 I saw at the local club meeting last week was flawless and just had a slightly different appearance to mine in the weave.

I'm still really hoping we can get the roof replaced this would much be my preferred option. I don't know if there is any kind of conversation going on about it or not but I would really hope so. 

 

[C8RKH]

7 minutes ago, Ratman said:

the defect on your roof is due to trimming operation, not lamination.

when they went preparing the roof for the painting, they went too deep with sand paper.

it does affect only the look, but it should be rejected or re skinned.

where I work, we do carbon look parts for French-German cars (and others) and they are going to check every square mm. this kind of defect is not tolerated.

Interesting facts, thanks for this. i think the issue we have is that once the car is completed with the carbon roof you cannot take it off to replace. Could you confirm if you could rectify this with the roof panel retained on the car?

[jonnyboy]

11 minutes ago, Ratman said:

the defect on your roof is due to trimming operation, not lamination.

when they went preparing the roof for the painting, they went too deep with sand paper.

it does affect only the look, but it should be rejected or re skinned.

where I work, we do carbon look parts for French-German cars (and others) and they are going to check every square mm. this kind of defect is not tolerated.

I detailed in an earlier post the defects are due to the surface of the mould having a void collapse that the weave presses into in the autoclave. It's infused resin so when keying it in for priming if you sand it too much you would be through to the other side there is no "give" in a carbon panel you can't deform it in any way once its cured. The chances of sanding through a carbon sheet are slim to none as it would take a while too! I suspect these are different materials than you are using in a skinning operation. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by jonnyboy

[C8RKH]

1 minute ago, jonnyboy said:

Crikey that's a mess! Why is that OK? Why is the roof OK? 

 

Lol - it is not, which is why I am pissed off about it!  The front lip hurts me much more than the roof! :)

They have changed suppliers by the way for the rear hatches. I do believe "our cars" were done by a firm in the South East of the UK (I cannot remember their name) but they changed carbon supplier to prodrive and the carbon is more consistent. The rear hatches on the GT410/GT430 actually have a Prodrive sticker on the underneath and I am sure when you get your replacement Jonny it will be a pro-drive one.

I actually think we are agreeing Jonny on the important bits!  

[jonnyboy]

That's interesting. So given I could tell that the weave was different when I haven't seen my car for 2 weeks I probably now have a car where the weave on the hatch doesn't match the roof. 

Super. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by jonnyboy

[C8RKH]

Oh shit, I just keep on giving you good news don't I!

I do also think that as you are "in the trade" you are probably more critical than most as you point out due to being better informed as to what to look out for/spot - that is not a criticism of you by the way. Some of the stuff you mention I would not even know what it was (over buffering - thought that was an internet connection problem!)

[PaulCP]

Jon, given the apparent technical ability to be able to replace a roof once stuck on,  I guess you need to make a decision over how much compensation you think would allow you to live with it, assuming of course that the other issues are fixed and you enjoy driving the car.

Any question of compensation is one between you & Lotus and should remain so.

You say that you don’t have time for a battle, I can tell you from my experience of rejecting a Land Rover late last year that the rejection process can be time consuming if the dealer, backed by the manufacturer, starts to resist. The rejection process is against the dealer not the manufacturer, but I’m sure you will be aware of that.

[bosshog]

Yeah its a sh*t situation. I'd probably be a bit miffed as well if I had spent that on a new car. I brought second hand and there are some minor defects with the trim and some stone chips already, but as its second hand I don't really mind at all. I got it to hoon about and its doing a great job. Crap situation to be in thought. FYI - here's that video - you can see how impossible it would be to replace cleanly  

 

[Ratman]

21 minutes ago, jonnyboy said:

I detailed in an earlier post the defects are due to the surface of the mould having a void collapse that the weave presses into in the autoclave. It's infused resin so when keying it in for priming if you sand it too much you would be through to the other side there is no "give" in a carbon panel you can't deform it in any way once its cured. The chances of sanding through a carbon sheet are slim to none as it would take a while too! I suspect these are different materials than you are using in a skinning operation. 

no,

it is made with pre-preg for sure. carbon look parts can not be made by resin infusion. I'm sure 100% that it has been sanded.

by the way the res skin must be made on the roof w/o the car as it has to be put in autoclave min 6 bar

[C8RKH]

I could just paint my roof Fire Red. It is a great colour when the suns out. Problem solved.......  lol.

Couldn't you create a hardtop for it Jonny and just cut off the old one and use your new one with a go faster vent - a sort of Targa Evora 410?  

I'm not really helping here am I? 

[jonnyboy]

 

4 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Jon, given the apparent technical ability to be able to replace a roof once stuck on,  I guess you need to make a decision over how much compensation you think would allow you to live with it, assuming of course that the other issues are fixed and you enjoy driving the car.

Any question of compensation is one between you & Lotus and should remain so.

You say that you don’t have time for a battle, I can tell you from my experience of rejecting a Land Rover late last year that the rejection process can be time consuming if the manufacturer starts to resist.

 

I don't like the C word Paul   I would much rather have the car right I'm not angling for any deal like that to be done at all. Even if I was given 10 grand back it would still annoy me looking at it. 

Painting it might not be a bad idea but it just swings back round to the point of why should you have to? 

I think I've said all I can for now that's where we are with it. If anyone swings into action to save the day I'll be very quickly back here to report an improvement in the situation which of course would only be fair. 

[jonnyboy]

13 minutes ago, bosshog said:

Yeah its a sh*t situation. I'd probably be a bit miffed as well if I had spent that on a new car. I brought second hand and there are some minor defects with the trim and some stone chips already, but as its second hand I don't really mind at all. I got it to hoon about and its doing a great job. Crap situation to be in thought. FYI - here's that video - you can see how impossible it would be to replace cleanly  

 

My word. Well it's not surprising they won't entertain it in that case. Some degree of explanation would have gone a long way in my case. 

[andyj007]

hmmn  

you would think a small volume car manufacture like lotus would have far better understanding and management of its quality control than say a volume car manufacture like porsche.. or ferrari..  after all..

its easier to manage and deliver.. when just like in all other areas in real world... smaller outfits generally care more and provide better service than major corporations..

what i dont get is 

if say the carbon bit is made by contractors our sourced, then just reject it..  unless they are buying in grade b quality .. 

 

 

[21gg]

I belive a company called polar did some of their cf,  dont know if they still do or they are the 'old' company?

Gav 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Maybe the Lotus Goods-In guys don't open up all the boxes and carefully check each individual c/f roof for quality issues, so it just gets put into store until it's needed. The next thing you know it's on the Production Line and being bonded to a chassis, at which point it's too late to do anything about it.

[Ratman]

I thought that CF parts were made by Prodrive, am I wrong?

anyway, my suggestion is to cover with a sticker (something like a stripe, or similar)

[jonnyboy]

[tim_marra]

On ‎08‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 20:37, jonnyboy said:

 

Given the colour of your car, getting the roof painted body colour would be a good compromise (sorry for using that word). You could even consider leaving the central recess as exposed carbon. You could then add some yellow pinstripes along the entire length of the car to blend the carbon/paint interface on the roof?

Just a thought 

Edited July 3, 2018 by tim_marra

[C8RKH]

Lol @jonnyboy!

So, to summarise:

Carbon supplier has changed. Lotus goods in needs to do quality checks. Guys on the line need authority to reject substandard parts too.

As opposed to lotus being a small supplier and then take more care - well swings and roundabouts really. They are small so don't have the clout with suppliers (bear in mind there max order for the 410 carbon units was 150 units per year! - not the 30,000 - 60,000 porsche would order) and they are small, so don't have lots of spare resources doing nothing much to pick this up. Small can be an issue, not just an advantage.

[Bruss]

To summarise.

Don't expect pefection if you are only paying 80,000 pounds for a car.

 

 

[PaulCP]

Controversial post I know but -

I wonder if any of these quality issues are down to the JMG effect 😮 cost cutting and employees scared to question

[Bruss]

I doubt it. Lotus have struggled for years with qc and lack of parts, probably due to the small volumes and late payments, constantly changing suppliers etc. 

[Bruss]

2 hours ago, tim_marra said:

Given the colour of your car, getting the roof painted body colour would be a good compromise (sorry for using that word). You could even consider leaving the central recess as exposed carbon. You could then add some yellow pinstripes along the entire length of the car to blend the carbon/paint interface on the roof?

Just a thought 

Or possibly just get a sheet of stick on carbon effect plastic. Sorted.