New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[jonnyboy]

I see Lotus Silverstone have one in that looks the same as mine and the colour is quoted as Carpathian Grey. At this rate I might have to look at the colour code on the actual car. 

[Cypriot]

On 23/11/2018 at 20:28, pete757 said:

Any idea how they compare to the 'Pilot Super Sports' or the Cup 4's on the same tyre of roads?

MPSS are much much better than the Cup2s in the winter and cold.  Just to give context, by cold I mean 0 degrees plus, nothing too extreme.  They handle the wet weather absolutely fine, but obviously dont go driving like a hooligan.  One thing to avoid even the MPSS are puddles, especially on the motorway - the tyres are simply not designed to copy with that, so just keep an eye out for puddles on the outside lane.

[BatMobile]

1 hour ago, Whitey said:

Pretty sure its a Land Rover colour as I was looking at this car when it was on Williams' stand at Brands last year. They specced the colour, but I don't remember the name, just that it was a special order grey from LR - looks lovely!

If that’s the case then its carpathian grey, my wife’s Range Rover is that colour and it’s beautiful; I don’t normally like grey cars. 

[Bravo73]

On 25/11/2018 at 12:42, bosshog said:

@Bravo73 do you know of any winter tyres that will fit the standard rims?

 

Continental WinterContact TS860S are reckoned to be one of the best, if not the best, winter UHP tyre:

 

I don't know if they come in 400/410 sizes though. However, if you are searching for them, don't be afraid to go for a slightly narrower width (relative to the summer tyres).

[Julian73]

On 23/11/2018 at 17:18, au-yt said:

It depends on what they were trying to achieve and for what race series. I recon there is 500plus super charged with stronger internals

I'm not saying they didn't get to 500 Hp, power output is conditioned on purpose the 24 hr endurance engines down somewhat.  The is limited it the engine rpm, above 7200 the Toyota VVT valvetrain seems to blow apart, to increase rpms, engine builders including Cosworth and Swindon would need to provide new heads and valve train designs.  I don't think they had the market size to justify the R&D

[blueg33]

On 25/11/2018 at 19:33, Cypriot said:

MPSS are much much better than the Cup2s in the winter and cold.  Just to give context, by cold I mean 0 degrees plus, nothing too extreme.  They handle the wet weather absolutely fine, but obviously dont go driving like a hooligan.  One thing to avoid even the MPSS are puddles, especially on the motorway - the tyres are simply not designed to copy with that, so just keep an eye out for puddles on the outside lane.

MPSS are not great on damp white lines on a cold day.  My car feels much more secure on it's winter tyres than the MPSS

[jonnyboy]

So this is interesting. A while back I mentioned I would be getting a bit of a chance looking after a Cayman GT4 for a while well it arrived yesterday so I'll get some chance to get to know it a bit more following a short drive I had in it earlier this year.  Had another half hour in it yesterday in cold damp conditions and I must say it feels much more planted than the Evora. It runs the same tyres. One of my previous observations on the 410 Vs the GT4 is that the steering/chassis feel much more alive than on the Porsche I will have to have a little dig into the geo settings and see what the differences are. I should add that the Porsche has had a professional set up at centre gravity and it appears they know their stuff as the steering feels much better than last time I drive it. Lovely detail and real confidence to get your foot down where the Evora would be wanting to make a bid for freedom. I think the Evora's much higher low down torque will also have something to do with this. The top end fizz on the Evora tops it though and the Evora feels much quicker. 

So second batch of initial thoughts on the GT4 it's a lovely car. Sounds fantastic and I prefer the looks. It's so dinky!  Hate the  seats. 918 buckets as ever they are at the wrong angle. You do get used to this as I did in my previous 987 Cayman which had carbon buckets. 

[bosshog]

It's a nice car the Gt4. Love the size as well. Just felt a bit slow for the money and that long gearing is not ideal. If it was 50k rather than 80k and the fact you can't put any miles on them without losing too much  money just make it pointless for me.

[jonnyboy]

Prices have come thumping down this year.  The owner of this one was just offered 65k as a PX on a GT3 (GT3 prices have also dropped like a stone this year) this is a clubsport too although for a GT4 it has an intergalactic 29k on the clock not that you could tell as it looks brand new. 

The geo setup has improved it a lot but it's not super quick. I still reckon the 410 is probably closer to a GT3 experience than GT4. The 430 seems to get grouped in that way anyway. It's mainly the torque I think that makes the Evora feel much mightier. Maybe the figures indicate otherwise.   

Still a fab car in it's own right no doubt. 

[EGTE]

Oh look, Porsche do paint blemishes, too!

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1784018

[jonnyboy]

Bookmarked that thread.  Let's see if Porsche do it or the cars owner embarks on a 6 month battle of wills with the supplying dealer and manufacturer and ends up without the car for 3 months.  My guess he'll be given a very nice courtesy car and a bunch of flowers for the wife and have it all sorted within 4 weeks. 

[EGTE]

Will be interesting to compare, yes.

[C8RKH]

Love the comment about it might rust. Can't ever see an Evora body panel rusting so one less thing to worry about 😁

[ByJoveByJingle]

Obviously a directly analogous situation to a carbon fiber roof that can’t be refinished and is epoxy bonded to the car frame.  

[jonnyboy]

So after a long wait for some dry weather I finally got a proper drive in this today:

Got to take in my long standing test route one which has made and broken many a car for me over the last 15 years. The route takes in mainly B roads of varying types some tight and twisty some at the top of 3rd gear lots of challenging surfaces. 

I'm getting used to the seats this was always a bit of an issue on my old 987 Cayman which had the Carbon folding buckets. The GT4 is a Clubsport with the 918 buckets so the seating position is "correct" but not immediately comfortable. By correct this means angling the arms to use your upper body to give steering effort which is right for race drivers but not really natural at first for road driving. They are supportive though and you really lean into them when there is some heat in the Cup2's. 

So really just putting a bit of flesh on the bones of what's been said before really I think I do pick cars up quickly as a result of driving so many for work you have to be very quick to pick up issues etc so I settle into cars very quickly. The GT4 has a superb chassis remember it's the only car they make with the engine in the right place! Having chance to really press on though exposed something I have seen before in one of their other products namely the Cayman R. It's a very flattering car to drive it tends to iron out all the rough surfaces to a point where other than the rear wiggling a little you do feel the sensation that the car is doing everything for you. I don't think this is a good thing for a drivers car. Also as the Cayman R was the front feels a bit aloof it doesn't weight up in the corners like the Lotus so you just kind of trust that the grip is there without getting any sensation of the limits building. 

One of the most surprising things is that it doesn't feel that quick. Doing a bit of googling I'm speechless to find that it has 10NM more than the 410. I guess the GT4 saves it for the top 1000RPM as it does feel quick right at the very top of the revs the 410 just feels quick all over in addition to having that little punch at the top. Still getting to grips with these numbers but I would have put the Evora 50nm up on torque by guessing. Genuinely amazed. 

In short the Evora feels like more of an event than the Cayman. The steering is next level in the Lotus it's just so much better. The Porsche is a bit more relaxed on the bumps but the Evora gives more feedback unsurprisingly and although firm the Evoras suspension on the challenging route I have was better than the Cayman in both of it's modes. The Cayman sounds amazing Lotus aren't quite able to supply cars with true race pedigree  just yet and the throttle response is typically NA really instant pickup. 

Could well have painted myself into a corner with the 410 it will make a future test drive of a GT3 even more interesting. Bearing in mind the price points of the GT4 have taken a bit of a tumble they are at the point where if you were so minded you could jump out of an Evora 410 into a GT4. I can safely say by some margin that for all it's annoyances this year the Evora towers over the GT4 where it matters and is in no danger of being replaced.  These Porsche guys dont know what they are missing. 

Interestingly the GT4's owner is pondering either getting a GT3 or chucking some money at the brakes and suspension on the Cayman. I will be getting him to drive the 410 as soon as we can manage it. I think a 430 would tick all the boxes for him. 

 

 

 

 

[tim_marra]

I don't know the gearing of the Pork, but i'll guess it is significantly taller than the Evora, which will dilute the impact of torque. Do you know what the official gearing of the Cayman is?

[Bruss]

Intersting write up, thanks. You almost only mention the brakes in passing. One of the biggest things I noticed on the other Tim's very well sorted GT4 was the 'average' braking ability compared to my S1 Evora. The rapid braking ability, along with the sublime suspension set up really seperates the Evora from the GT4. I would love to own Tims car but I couldn't prefer it over the Evora, even my humble model. As I alluded to elsewhere, just for a change, I am interested in a 'sporty' Cayman, but what stops me is the sheer joy of driving feel that the Evora gives. The Cayman is capable, perhaps even quicker round a track, but it lacks that 'something' that seperates a car from the the average.

[jonnyboy]

Yep the brakes are typical Porsche. They are the but they feel almost unassisted so you really have to stamp on them a bit like the old Elises.  It's the bit that Porker people always bottle out of the cost of the PCCB ceramic brakes usually with some excuse about how they hold up on track but they are much better than the steels. I had them on my old 987 and although pads were expensive at £600 They are transformative for the steering. I don't know what the reduction in the weight is but it's significant.  

Certainly the Evora brakes are mighty and feel it with fantastic initial bite. The Porsche brakes are in reality probably as good but they take some tuning into.  They are probably easier to modulate on track. 

[EGTE]

Very interesting write-up. I actually prefer my previous Porsches' brake weights - much easier to heel-and-toe - but the Lotus ones feel far better otherwise, as does just about everything else about the car, so I'm not surprised you prefer your 410 to even the mighty GT4.

I was lucky enough to source some (second-hand, but entirely rebuilt) Exe-TC dampers on my previous 911 . They are other-worldly in terms of compliance and control compared to OEM Porsche. You know what? The boggo Evora damping is even better than that.....

[au-yt]

A bit left of topic and I'm not sure it belongs here, however watch this and tell me other than the comment about he Porkas interior, the comments about the two cars could be leveled at the EVORA 4XX family. As I watched and listened to their comments, I keep thinking my EVORA does or is like just that.

I love them to do a real life cost of ownership of these cars as a comparison however as for living with them as the EVORA to me is miles ahead.... I await to be chastised

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by au-yt

[jonnyboy]

Well I realised it's coming up to a year of ownership soon. Collection when I remember was delayed slightly as the 1st March last year we were in the midst of the Beast from the East and the country had shut down! I think I collected it about the 3rd or 4th of March. It still feels pretty new to me partly due to the time away from it and then we went into winter. In the end I decided to stick with the cup 2 tyres and park her up in the worst of the weather. Being a Yorkshireman I thought what I would do is wait for the fronts to expire first and then swap the tyres to PS4's I think. 

An opportunity may have arisen to stick a letter in to Porsche for a new GT4 and I'm in a genuine quandary about it. I would only want the GT4 if it becomes available with a PDK box but a bigger worry is the steering. The electric steering to me just doesn't work on the 981 GT4 so I would assume that a 991 GT3 has the same or similar components as will the 718 GT4. I'd be gutted to have spent such an amount of cash on a car not for it to be totally fulfilling as a drivers car. I think if the owners of these types of cars are totally honest with themselves they must miss the old 987 steering which was wonderful on my old Cayman. 

I may stick a letter in and if it comes off it comes off but I think other than that the 410 is probably one of those irreplaceable cars. The steering feel is I would say something you could now almost call "old school" in that nobody else really does it any more! 

As a side note whilst out car shopping yesterday (for the wife!) we saw an NSX in the Land Rover dealership I have to say it looked quite oddly proportioned. At £114k for a 2 year old car with 3500 miles I think I'd be swinging by to steal a 570 for under 100k!  Oh no...I said it...570... Too much choice! 570's have hydraulic steering as well! 

[mik]

Not sure if you are aware, but several GT4 have suffered failure of the offside front suspension turret.

I know Pete who owns this car - not pretty.

 

[au-yt]

I will say I’m shocked to see this sort of damage in any car but a Porsche. In the aviation world this type of structural damage would ground every  aircraft. 

Remember the issue with the first series AUDI TT’s they then issues compulsory mods, different springs and spoilers to stop them spinning off the Autobahn.

[tim_marra]

2 hours ago, jonnyboy said:

may stick a letter in and if it comes off it comes off but I think other than that the 410 is probably one of those irreplaceable cars. The steering feel is I would say something you could now almost call "old school" in that nobody else really does it any more! 

Hmmm, so you are considering replacement of something irreplaceable?

[jonnyboy]

1 hour ago, tim_marra said:

Hmmm, so you are considering replacement of something irreplaceable?

Tim it's a real shame that you are such a negative snipey person.  You bring nothing but irritation to this forum and to the playground. Why?