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Hi,

I have ordered the 6 point addition to the 4 point harnesses (I have a Schroth rotating buckle already). I need advice from someone who has done it already: where is the best place to attach them? I have ordered these: https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/harness-crutch-straps/schroth-twin-t-type-crutch-strap

 

Thank you

Samo

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You really need the proper FIA fixing Lotus supply to anchor the 5/6 point. However, you'll not be able to use the crotch strap you have bought with eye bolt anchors, you'll need wrap around ones.

These are the two items you'll need -

https://www.deroure.com/partinfo.asp?MAK=1&MDL=21&TBL=1964&SMA=0&SMO=0&ST=&SC=0&PBID=51977

https://www.deroure.com/partinfo.asp?MAK=1&MDL=21&TBL=1964&SMA=0&SMO=0&ST=&SC=0&PBID=51975

 

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@alias23 How is yours anchored?

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Bolt through the floor using the Scroth provided hardware

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Found photos: 

Doesn't look that great from below. I'll do it anyway :)

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Certainly not how would fix them and that method would not pass scrutineers if you were racing.

The floor panel is only 1.5mm thick aluminium.  Those steel plates would tear straight out in a accident.

The Lotus fixings attach to the main cross beam in the chassis.

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I have checked my 360 Cup and it actually has this wrap around thingie bolted to the floor on the driver's side :) So I might end up using it.

Most probably on the passenger side they were concerned about weight and they have decided not to install it. But if you look at how it is bolted it is not that much better than the "improvised" solution. And if they are supposed to carry a lot of load, this means you are doing it wrong - as on 4 point harness they don't even exist and it is basically the same thing. Still a solution, where the loops would be somehow connected to the runners would be better (also looked better) than the holes through the floor. Maybe just a "small harness bar" between the runners and make a wrap around installation?

 

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Lol, nope, you're suppose to use different types of harnesses for each type of installation. You obvioulsy don't know what you're doing and are just guessing at stuff which is a big mistake to make when it boils down to safety features.

Seriously, harnesses and the manner they are installed are only effective if you specify the right type of harness for the installation and install them in the correct manner they are suppose to be used.

If you don't follow the correct methods you'd be better off using the std 3point belts as they'll be a lot safer. I see so many people guessing how to install them and don't really know what they're doing and they end up doing it wrong. 

Just like above, attaching the 5/6 spreader plates directly to the thin Ali floor sheet isn't the correct method for attaching them and isn't safe. And again, youre now guessing 'why' they haven't fitted a 5/6 anchor point to the passengers side, weight has absolutely nothing to do with it btw.

And you couldn't be more wrong, the factory fit  5/6th anchor point is much more secure than the home fit one above, it has been through full FIA homologation and is recognised and fit for purpose to use in any race series. It is bolted directly onto the chassis cross beam and not just to the thin floor panel like Alias above (you really should look to change that). If you were to turn up to a race meet with them attached to the floor pans like Alias they'd send you home!!

You need to stop guessing and find out the correct info before you do anything!! Honestly, if you don't install (and use) them correctly you may as well not wear a belt at all...

Okay, ill try and lay it out clearly for you to understand. 

I presume you have the 4 point schroth harnesses that were installed from the factory on both the drivers and passenger side. If so, these type of 4 point belts are deigned to be attached to the seat frame by the lap straps and the shoulder straps attach to the harness bar.

The factory 4 point harnesses have a 'anti-submarining' device stitched into one of the shoulder straps (the yellow tag on the inboard shoulder strap of each harness).

If you're involved in a heavy accident, the yellow section on the shoulder harness is designed to tear away a little forcing your upper body weight to fold over the top of the lap strap and keep you in your seat. If it didn't break away and 'give a little', you could potentially slip out from under the lap belts.

You'll notice the yellow tear away tabs are positioned inboard on both the drivers and passenger seats, this is so that the drivers and passengers heads will rotate away from each other if both the yellow tags rip in a big accident.

So now you want to use a 5/6 point harness section on a system that was designed to work as a 4 point belt.

The 5/6 harness belt is solely there to stop you anti-submarining out of your lap belts. If you're going to use one, then then you should also look to change out the main harness above for one that doesn't have the yellow anti-submarining device stitched into it. You don't need 2 anti-submarining devices, you just want a plain set of 3" shoulder straps that are designed to work with the 5/6 the anchor point system. They only use the yellow rip tabs on 4 point belts, not 5/6.

If you were to go racing , then you would not be able to use the anchor points for the laps straps that attach to the seat frame, you'd have to use eye bolts attached directly back to the chassis rail. (If you have the 5/6 floor anchor already installed in your cup car there is a good chance you may also have the 2 eye bolts in the cross beam behind the seat which are for the lap straps). 

The seat is only held in with 4x 8mm bolts, to this you attach the lap belts. In a forward facing accident, your weight and the seats weight are relying on those 4x 8mm bolts to hold you securely back to the chassis, you weight goes into the lap belts which in turn are attached to the seat which are inturn attached to the chassis by the 4 bolts. Acceptable for road use but to go racing then that isn't allowed. The belts all need to be anchor directly to chassis so that in a forward facing impact your weight gets transfer straight to the chassi mounting points and not through the seat anchor points. 

Your looking to attach the 5/6 point back to the seat frame also which in a accident just puts more load on the 4 bolts trying to hold everything down.

Either do one of two things, leave them exactly as they are with the 4 point harness with integral anti-submarining devices. If you really want a 6 point harness on the drivers seat then look to replace the whole harness for the correct one that uses the floor anchor points and doesn't have a secondary ASM device stitched in.

Do it properly or don't do it at all..

My personal thoughts are that unless you are going racing then 5/6 point harnesses are a complete pain in the arse, they are awkward to use, time consuming to get into and can be restrictive in the man area... for road use and occasional trackdays I simply wouldn't bother.

 

 

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I have mine setup in the same way as @alias23, as installed by Back on Track Motorsport.  You'd have to be in a catastrophically huge accident to rip the 6th point out of the floor (remember it's got reinforcement plates attached, so isn't just a bolt).  Personally I think this would be the least of my worries in an accident. I'd be more worried about the fact the car is made from plastic with an aluminium chassis that's glued together... Plus the fact that it's just 4 small bolts attaching the (shit) seat runners to the chassis of the car.

Personally I run my Harnesses as 4 point on the road and 6 point on track.   The 6th point for me is more to hold me in place, although with my new Tillett B6 Screamers I'm so well held in place that I pretty much can't move anyway!

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Well all I can say is Back on Track have not done the job properly then, sorry to have to inform you of that.

The 5/6th harness point is soley there to stop you from submarining out of your seat from under your lap belts. 

If you were involved in a accident where you do happen to slip under the lap belts then your whole body weight is now being loaded onto the 5/6 crotch harness points. I'd put a larger wager that even at slow speed accident (30mph), the average guy weighing 75kg is probably more like 1 tonne of loading back on those points coming to a dead stop. if you have them mounted through the 1,5 mm ali sheet floor panel they will rip out like butter!!

Also if you were to have a minor accidant at 30 mph say and you did slip under the belts there is a good chance you'd write the car off due to you ripping the floor panel through from the spreader plates.  If they are attached to chassis properly as they should be attached you wouldn't run that risk.

Sorry to seem so draconian but like I said, if you're going to install them then do it properly else you're wasting your time, money and potentially causing more risk of injury to yourself than if they were not installed at all.

Not my neck, carry on guys!!

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2 hours ago, GFWilliams said:

You'd have to be in a catastrophically huge accident to rip the 6th point out of the floor (remember it's got reinforcement plates attached, so isn't just a bolt).

Yes it does, but it's a reinforcment plate thats suppose to attach itself back to the main chassis structure and 'spread the load' into the chassis, its not designed to 'spread the load' into a thin gauge aluminium floor panel!!

3mm steel plate 'V' 1.5mm Ali sheet, I wonder which will win?

 

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I'd just like to add to this thread for anyone else reading it in the future thinking about fitting harnesses to their road car. There is so much mis-information out there that could have the potential to be extremely dangerous to anyone following it.

Installing a set of harnesses into a car is a lot more involved than just buying any old set you come across, bolting a bar in the back and drilling a few holes in the floor to add the attachments. It has to be done in the correct manner. Correct type of belt and belt fixing for the application, correctly placed fixings to the chassis/seat, correct angles of belt attachment, correct buckle placement etc etc, it's all in the instructions if you read them. 

It's not just about doing the install right either, just as important is how they are worn. You could have the best installed harnesses in the world but if you're not wearing them correctly they can cause serious injury just from the fact you're not wearing them correctly. In which case the standard 3point belt system would be better employed. For instance,  anyone you see with a collarbone injury after having a accident with harnesses is more than likely down to the fact their shoulder belts weren't done up tight enough in the first place.

How many on here have harnesses and have done a trackday with them? Lots I imagine. You sit in the pit lane waiting to go out all strapped into them yet after a couple of laps of getting up to speed you'll reach down and pull the shoulder belts in a little tighter as they're not holding you in enough on full brakes. Well in a accident when you come to a much more sudden stop you don't have time to do that. I can almost guarantee most people using harnesses on the road won't be wearing them tight enough to be fully effective in a major collision and would indeed be better off wearing a 3 point belt.

The same goes for poorly installed harnesses being worn correctly. No good being strapping in correctly if what your strapped to is poorly done (cough). Both are equally as bad as each other, you need to ensure they are installed and being worn correctly at all times else they just aren't as good/effective as they could be when really needed. For road use that makes life quite difficult as you'll be pinned back to the seat having no forward movement for visibility or you'll be loosening off your belts each time at every junction giving more potential for you not to do them back up right again... they are really for track use only if worn as they should be worn.

Like I say, there is a lot more it involves regards to installing them and using them than you think. Certainly if you want to use them to their full safety potential anyway, which is why you're installing them in the first place isn't it?

 

 

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@TheKevlarKid, what are your thoughts about installing (and using) harnesses in a car without a full cage?

(I understand that in a roll over accident, occupants in harnesses might not be able to move away from a collapsing roof, hence potentially leading to head or neck injuries). 

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I have zero idea about race harnesses however as an addendum to the above... I'm a Chartered engineer and I work in the oil and gas industry in most places on the planet. Sometimes I am required to wear a scaffolding harness when I need to go up a column or such like, when working at heights. I have to agree with above, harnesses need to be tight to do their job, if they are not you may end up with worse injuries than with not wearing one at all. I have seem numerous HSE videos on badly fitted equipment. 

As for fixing strength etc. I would ask to see the "point load calculations" from the supplier of the equipment fitted for the particular application in which it is installed. If they cannot produce one then who knows if it will hold. Ask yourself a simple question.... "Did an engineer calculate the loads on a bridge you drive on a regular basis"?  The answer is 110% yes, safety first, last and always.

thanks

Mark

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@Bravo73 Don't see any problem. If there were the factory would not fit them. I presume we're talking elise and not just your everyday car?

The elise/exige does have a 'roll over hoop and back stays of sorts.

I fear in a rollover situation you wouldn't have the time or the ability to move your head out the way of anything that maybe heading towards it, regardless of what tpye of restraining system you're using. If anything though, harnesses (worn correctly of course) are going to keep you pinned into the seat far better than a 3point belt, which is more designed for accidents that happen with the car in a upright postion not an upside down one....

 

43 minutes ago, Mark030358 said:

As for fixing strength etc. I would ask to see the "point load calculations" from the supplier of the equipment fitted for the particular application in which it is installed. If they cannot produce one then who knows if it will hold. Ask yourself a simple question.... "Did an engineer calculate the loads on a bridge you drive on a regular basis"?  The answer is 110% yes, safety first, last and always.

thanks

Mark

Mark,

The Lotus FIA belt fixings and fixing methods back to the chassis have had all the load calcs done yes. It would have been part and parcel of the FIA homologation certificate when they applied for it.

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2 hours ago, TheKevlarKid said:

@Bravo73 Don't see any problem. If there were the factory would not fit them. I presume we're talking elise and not just your everyday car?

Nope, thinking about my Evora (which also happens to be my everyday car!)

Any idea about harnesses and airbags? I can’t think that it would be very nice having a airbag go off in front of you whilst being strapped back in the seat. 

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13 hours ago, TheKevlarKid said:

Mark,

The Lotus FIA belt fixings and fixing methods back to the chassis have had all the load calcs done yes. It would have been part and parcel of the FIA homologation certificate when they applied for it.

@TheKevlarKid Interesting and good to know. I did qualify my post with "I know nothing....:lol:" but I basically agrred with your posts.

cheers

Mark

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