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Darth Bruno

Ignition Warning Indicator… what to check? :-(

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I can't start my S2 (US specs) anymore :-( 
I suspected a battery issue because almost anything can be activated anymore (lights, air fans…), so I've just bought a brand new one, but it didn't help.
I didn't paid attention but a small "Ignition Warning Indicator" led on the dashboard is on! :blush:
Can't find in the manual what to check ?
I presume the first checks must be fuses or relay?
Here's, the ones I can access in my car  :
lotusrelay.jpg.c2631c48c20f30b338841d1db0f098e3.jpg
 

Is there some relays or fuses related to ignition in there?

Or the one(s) related to ignition could be somewhere else (and don't tell me to check inside the glove box like the manual said because there are no fuse/relay there).
What else to investigate on?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Edited by Darth Bruno

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So, you turn the key to position 1 & the ignition light comes on?

You then turn the key to position 2 & nothing happens?

With the key in positoon 1 nothing electrical (fans, puel pump, lights) works?

Check the battery & earth connections are clean, good & tight and the battery is fully charged. :thumbup:

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The ignition light indicates the battery is not getting charged by the alternator. So points to a problem with the alternator (or drive belt) or in the wiring.

If you get nothing to work with a new battery, that rules out the alternator so you need to look at cables and connections to the battery. Unlikely to be a fuse or relay, that would only cause some functions to fail, not all of them.

Answers to the questions above will point you in the right direction.

Bonne chance,

Filip

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1 hour ago, Escape said:

The ignition light indicates the battery is not getting charged by the alternator. So points to a problem with the alternator (or drive belt) or in the wiring.

I assumed the engine isn't running from his initial statement:

"I can't start my S2 (US specs) anymore 

 

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First of all, thanks for trying to helping me! :cool:

A bit of history, before having my 'Ignition Issue' related here. (sorry for my bad english… and the  lack of vocabulary regarding car/motor subject:blush:) :

18 months ago, when I had to drive my car (when not used for more than 2 or 3 weeks/cold start), when turning the key to position II, I had to wait few minutes before hearing the fuel pomp activating itself…. Once I could hear the usual 'tic tic tic' sounds of the fuel pomp loading fuel; I could turn the key to position III and start the engine… once started, no issue at all…
But times passed… and I had to wait each time longer before hearing the activation of the fuel pump… and after this winter, I had to wait more 15 minutes before hearing the activation of the fuel pump…
So two days ago, I waited 15 minutes for that, started the engine and went for my first ride after the winter…
15 km later… the motor, if I didn't keep it up than 3000 was about to stop… and the situation went worse… I had to keep at least RPM 3500… and 4000 otherwise it would stop with I though no option to restart it? So I tried to go back at  my home but because of the traffic jam, I had to stop … and as expected, no more possible to start anymore :no

So I guess the fuel pump is now death? But this is the part where things went worse : when turning the key to position III, nothing! The engine even not try to start (no alternator activity). I think I just could hear a 'click' somewhere (relay activation)? A friend came and linked its battery to mine… it doesn't help … but after few attempts, the engine finally started… but after 10 - 15 sec, even with putting gas, the motor stopped….and then nothing for 20 minutes…
But I took my chance during an attempt, which allowed me to start the motor and I drove few km to join my home (but I had to drive like a crazy man, hopping no traffic jam… and keep high rpm :ouch:)

Now I'm home and here's the status, and what I did ;

When I turn key to position II, when I'm supposed to use some electrical components like lights, fans… but nothing happens. Or course, nothing happens when trying to start the engine (position III).
I can see the battery indicator (VOLTS) going to 12/13V approx) and a small led on, between the 'Brake' and 'Ignition' led ->

battery2.jpg.fc1f1cfaf22a6d0042690811acc55fc2.jpg

 

But starting from this, If I try to turn the key to position III to start the engine, nothing (expect a tic sound that could be relay?) except the VOLTS indicator decreases!? 
And other test I've done, still in position II, If I want for instance to switch on the light, it doesn't work and the VOLTS also indicator decreases :no

Better than words, here's a video when I'm trying this last test


I know these symptoms cry for a 'battery issue'… but I don't think it's the case because I bought a brand new one, checked it's on fully charge and do the same test with no luck!
To be honest, when I changed the battery, the issues disappear right after… and I really thought the issue was fixed… but 2 hours later, still the same issue than showed in the video! :rant:

Would it be possible that my fuel pump is totally dead and 'vampirise' the available power, which is then no more available for other functions? But as you can see on video, I go to position II, where the fuel pump should be activated and the battery keep the charge?
And when I'm in position I on the key, the fuel pump is not supposed to be activated too… So what component could suck the power when I'm trying to -like I did in the video- to open the lights? :wallbash:

Well, I could combine several issues here… what are you suggestion to investigate on this? :cry:

Edited by Darth Bruno
correction

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Not yet seen the video, it's still uploading.

You definitely need to check the fuel pump connections, it should start as soon as it gets power. If I were you I'd replace it.

The reason the engine will not turn over again sounds like an electrical connection problem, check all the battery & starter motor connections are clean & tight as well as the earthing connections to the chassis. :thumbup:

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Bruno,

I am sorry , but the video is not availlable. I cannot see it.

It would be good if you start searching in an analytical way.:

Fuelpump : The SU fuelpump is simple : Take a direct testwire to a good battery. earth and +12V : If it ticks , the fuelpump is good , if not , or hesitating, change te pump. Buy a new one with electronics inside instead of points : https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ075L0001.htm?currency=5

If the pump is good however, when connecting directly to the battery with a testwire, no need replacing it. Start looking at the wiring. Is it earthed correct? The positive wire should go to the inertia switch. Is this switch OK? You should measure if you get a +12V on the + side of the pump when turning the ignition switch.

This is the way I search for electrical problems.

Do you have an electrical diagram? i can email you one. On the other hand, I think your S2 is changed. The pictures show another configuration of the fuses and relays then in my S2.2, so I am not sure if all is original acoording to the diagram.

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Good info Bruno. It does sound like a battery or wiring problem. Which means checking all components methodically. Starting with the fuel pump, as stated, because this is known not to work as it should.

As for the LED light, could it be the bulb for the ignition warning light has worked loose and is shining between the covers?

Where exactly are you located? If not too far, I'd be happy to come over and help you troubleshoot!

Filip

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Good point to check and clean are the earth leads.They often cause a problem.

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Ok let me re-post the video link :

CLICK ME FOR THE VIDEO

or

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6i8jve

I would really appreciated if you can watch it first, as it really could help me to explain better than words my issues and test I'm doing. Let me know if you still can't Watch it, and I'll try to upladed it on YouTube also.

 

21 hours ago, jonwat said:

You definitely need to check the fuel pump connections, it should start as soon as it gets power. If I were you I'd replace it.

The reason the engine will not turn over again sounds like an electrical connection problem, check all the battery & starter motor connections are clean & tight as well as the earthing connections to the chassis. :thumbup:

Hi John,
Yes, checking the fuel pump connection is something I'll do as soon as possible (I do not have access to the bottom of the car yet), but I stll believe I've an another issued ahead, which is : why in position I (where the fuel pump should not be activaded) the battery indicator go down as soon as I try to switch on something? (like windows control, or switching on the light) ? 😣
How can I check this earthing connections to the chassis ?
 

20 hours ago, gvy said:

Fuelpump : The SU fuelpump is simple : Take a direct testwire to a good battery. earth and +12V : If it ticks , the fuelpump is good , if not , or hesitating, change te pump. Buy a new one with electronics inside instead of points : https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ075L0001.htm?currency=5

If the pump is good however, when connecting directly to the battery with a testwire, no need replacing it. Start looking at the wiring. Is it earthed correct? The positive wire should go to the inertia switch. Is this switch OK? You should measure if you get a +12V on the + side of the pump when turning the ignition switch. 

Do you have an electrical diagram? i can email you one. On the other hand, I think your S2 is changed. The pictures show another configuration of the fuses and relays then in my S2.2, so I am not sure if all is original acoording to the diagram. 

Hi Gvy,

Fuelpump seems to do the job when I go to key position II... but because I've a problem ahead, I do not have to possibility to swith on the engine anymore. Every attemps to use Something that consume power (and so the engine starter) lead to what you see on the video (the needle of the battery decrease).

Where is located the inertia switch?

 

9 hours ago, Escape said:

Good info Bruno. It does sound like a battery or wiring problem. Which means checking all components methodically. Starting with the fuel pump, as stated, because this is known not to work as it should.

As for the LED light, could it be the bulb for the ignition warning light has worked loose and is shining between the covers?

Where exactly are you located? If not too far, I'd be happy to come over and help you troubleshoot!

Filip

Hi Filip, I don't think the ignition warning light is on now... see the video... it looks like a small led that light when I insert the key.
Damn, I would kill for having someone experienced close to me to help me... but I guess you're very far from me... Im in South belgium. But thanks anyway.

8 hours ago, Gotti said:

Good point to check and clean are the earth leads.They often cause a problem.

Hi Gotti,
I'm already re sealed the (new) battery connection. What it the final point on the car where the earth leads is supposed to be attached on the car?


 

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It looks like to me you have a bad positive or a bad negative connection somewhere.

Disconnect both wires from the battery first.

Then follow both wires from the battery to the connections on the car.Clean every points  where the wires are screwed on. I had  an S2 Esprit European spec,maybe the connections are differnt on an Us spec.

069.thumb.jpg.658040146bca4bc0b21b212e1a05ce80.jpgThe earth lead on my s2 was screwed to the coolant expansion tank(chassis) and to the gearbox bellhousing (near the starter) you can see it on the photo.The positive wire goes from the battery to the starter and then to the alternator.Check all the other wires in the engine bay too for a bad or loose connection .A multimeter will be fine whe you have one at home.

Do you have a photo from your engine bay?

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Bruno.

I think Filip is right. The small light you see is the bulb of the ignition warning light that came out of its housing and is now visible  as a small shine between  two warninglights.

The ignition warning light should be on when putting the key in position II and the engine not turning. So it is normal that this light is on. Just put it back in its housing. In normal condition this light will go out ones the engine is turning, because then the alternator is giving power. The warning light gets 12V from the battery and the other side goes to the alternator. So once the alternator is giving power there is no potential difference to make it light up.

Second: Your problem :

It seems that you have a massive drop in voltage as soon as you use a powersource. ( lights, windows....) I think there is an earthing problem. The first test you need to do is measure the voltage with a multimeter direct on the battery terminals. When you put on the lights, the voltage drops in the car on the voltagegauge , but does it also drop on the multimeter on the batteryterminals? If not and the voltage on the batteryterminal stays 12V, you have a bad earthconnection between the batteryterminal and the chassis or engine that will lead to these symptoms. Normally you should have two thick black wires that start on the negative terminal on the battery. The thickest is connected to the engine, the other one goes to a chassis point on the tubular structure . On a polyester car the earthing is very important because the car itself is not conducting. It is difficult to measure because sometimes you have a small wire that is still providing the earth, but if it has to draw power its resistance gets so high that the voltage drops. That wire will burn eventually, so it is important that the heavy earthwires are all wel connected and all earthingpoints are clean. There is an important earthing point for the cableloom under the front bonnet. Have a look if all contacts are clean and well earthed to the chassis there.

 

Geert

Edited by gvy
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Bruno,

Belgium isn't that big, so hard to be very far from a fellow countryman. 😉 I'm near Louvain, pretty close to la wallonie.

It does look like a problem in the wiring, causing a massive voltage drop. So all the wires and connections need to be checked, earth as well as main power feed.

Filip

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12 hours ago, Darth Bruno said:

I would really appreciated if you can watch it first, as it really could help me to explain better than words my issues and test I'm doing. Let me know if you still can't Watch it, and I'll try to upladed it on YouTube also.

Hi John,
Yes, checking the fuel pump connection is something I'll do as soon as possible (I do not have access to the bottom of the car yet), but I stll believe I've an another issued ahead, which is : why in position I (where the fuel pump should not be activaded) the battery indicator go down as soon as I try to switch on something? (like windows control, or switching on the light) ? 😣
How can I check this earthing connections to the chassis ?
 

Yes, now seen the video, I suggest you follow Fillip & Geert's instructions to the letter. :thumbup:

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Thanks to all, I'll do these actions these coming days, and of course let you know the result. 

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On 23 avril 2018 at 22:51, Gotti said:

It looks like to me you have a bad positive or a bad negative connection somewhere.

Disconnect both wires from the battery first.

Then follow both wires from the battery to the connections on the car.Clean every points  where the wires are screwed on. I had  an S2 Esprit European spec,maybe the connections are differnt on an Us spec.

The earth lead on my s2 was screwed to the coolant expansion tank(chassis) and to the gearbox bellhousing (near the starter) you can see it on the photo.The positive wire goes from the battery to the starter and then to the alternator.Check all the other wires in the engine bay too for a bad or loose connection .A multimeter will be fine whe you have one at home.

Do you have a photo from your engine bay?


Just couldn't wait to investigate on this… so I'm just back from my garage in order to take a full picture on the engine bay :

bay1.jpg.19982cdb31846c0c5efdced78b7272fa.jpg

And during a closer examination, I see this! ->

bay2.jpg.a81f054c60083d8da288a497077f82d3.jpg

It looks like we just found the guilty!
What is that component? (white arrow).
So obviously I just have to plug the connector into that component? (red arrow). (I don't see anywhere else where this could be plugged anyway):)
I guess this is it… but I prefer to ask you first. 

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Thats the ignition coil.It looks like the pin where the cable is attached is broken.I hope your problem is now solved !?

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Bruno,

The component is your High Tension Coil.

In the middle is the thick high tension lead that goes to the distributor.

On the right side (picture)of the coil(+) i think you have two wires connected : A pink/white and a white/yellow. The white/yellow is a direct +12V from the startermotor solenoid. It gets 12 V when you turn the ignition key to position 3, when starting, but the 12V disappears when the engine is running and you loosen the ignition key to position 2. The pink/white is a resistive wire coming from the inertia switch and because it is resistive it delivers only about 8V to your coil when the engine is running and the ignition key is in position 2.  The idea is that on starting , the coil gets the full12V but ones started it goes to 8V. Depending on the type of coil this is needed.

On the left side (picture) of the coil (-) you have a black/white wire together with a screened cable . The black/white wire comes from the distributor(points) . The screened cable ( inner wire is slate or dark gray, outer is screen) goes to the tachometer into the dashboard. The screen of that cable should be connected to the earth, the inner dark gray is connected together with the black/white (from the points) to the + terminal of the coil.

Because your coil is covered with some sort of rubber cover, I can't see what is underneed. ( remove it and take picture) but anyway, that screen should just be connected to earth somewere. It is clear that it broke off but I dont think that you have found the real reason yet.

The fact that this screen is not connected can never be the cause of a massive voltage drop. It is only there and connected to earth to protect the tacho signal from interference.

 

You should investigate your main leads from the battery. What worries me is the way your battery is connected. It seems as if there is only one thick black lead is starting from the - pole of the battery ? Please follow it . Where is it connected to?

As I said , mine has 2. One big lead is connected to the engine directly. The other one is connected to a chassispoint ( next to the base of the watertank)

 

Edited by gvy

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11 hours ago, gvy said:

Bruno,

The component is your High Tension Coil.

In the middle is the thick high tension lead that goes to the distributor.

On the right side (picture)of the coil(+) i think you have two wires connected : A pink/white and a white/yellow. The white/yellow is a direct +12V from the startermotor solenoid. It gets 12 V when you turn the ignition key to position 3, when starting, but the 12V disappears when the engine is running and you loosen the ignition key to position 2. The pink/white is a resistive wire coming from the inertia switch and because it is resistive it delivers only about 8V to your coil when the engine is running and the ignition key is in position 2.  The idea is that on starting , the coil gets the full12V but ones started it goes to 8V. Depending on the type of coil this is needed.

On the left side (picture) of the coil (-) you have a black/white wire together with a screened cable . The black/white wire comes from the distributor(points) . The screened cable ( inner wire is slate or dark gray, outer is screen) goes to the tachometer into the dashboard. The screen of that cable should be connected to the earth, the inner dark gray is connected together with the black/white (from the points) to the + terminal of the coil.

Because your coil is covered with some sort of rubber cover, I can't see what is underneed. ( remove it and take picture) but anyway, that screen should just be connected to earth somewere. It is clear that it broke off but I dont think that you have found the real reason yet.

The fact that this screen is not connected can never be the cause of a massive voltage drop. It is only there and connected to earth to protect the tacho signal from interference.

 

You should investigate your main leads from the battery. What worries me is the way your battery is connected. It seems as if there is only one thick black lead is starting from the - pole of the battery ? Please follow it . Where is it connected to?

As I said , mine has 2. One big lead is connected to the engine directly. The other one is connected to a chassispoint ( next to the base of the watertank)

 

Bruno.this is what you should do.gvy knows what he is is talking about!!!My english isnt good enough to discribe all this things.Hope you get it sorted...

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OK guys, just fixed back the 'loose' connector (which wasn't broken by the way) :

 

coil1.jpg.db429e9fcfbe05f8324ded685299f2e3.jpg

…and moved a little bit the black connector coming for the negative pole of the battery, hooked right there (to the earth I would say) :

coil2.jpg.1250b4007b523ef465038bcb6dcc17d6.jpg

It looks that the 'massive drop voltage' is fixed :-)
I can now activate lights, windows or other electrics parts : the volt indicator drop a little bit (from 12,2v to 11,8v…I've used a multi meter hooked to the battery), but I would say it's normal..

But can I start now the engine?

Well, the starter does its job… but the motor doesn't start …. I can hear every minute one 'tic' coming from the fuel pump… should this one be more noisy when working? …maybe there is already enough fuel in the carburetor and so no more fuel is needed? How a fuel pump can detect if fuel must be sent or not?

But If you go back to my very first post on this topic, I explain issue I had with I believe the fuel pump, so I believe it's time for a new one!

Here's a picture of it :

fuelpump.jpg.26b41c4c8785d442ede6739ef878dca8.jpg

Is it an original one? What reference should I buy in order to match the current one and avoiding as much as possible adaption if the new one is not the same model than this?

Sorry, maybe I should open a new topic related to fuel pump? Let me know.

Thanks again for your precious help so far guys :-)

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25 minutes ago, Darth Bruno said:

I can hear every minute one 'tic' coming from the fuel pump… should this one be more noisy when working? …maybe there is already enough fuel in the carburetor and so no more fuel is needed? How a fuel pump can detect if fuel must be sent or not?

When the carb float chambers are full a tick a minute is what you would expect to hear from the pump. :thumbup:

You now need to check you have a spark at the plugs.

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Those fuel pumps are pretty sturdy, as long as you hear it ticking, it should be fine. It works on pressure, if the float in the carburetor reaches its level, it will close a valve, pressure will rise in the feed line and the pump will stop until pressure drops again as the valve opens.

It's good you got the voltage problem sorted! That was the main problem, and could have caused the fuel pump being slow to start because of low voltage.

Next take out a/the spark plug(s), both to check for spark and to verify fuel is reaching the cylinders.

And charge the battery, 11.8V to 12.2V is quite low and you want to make sure you get a powerful spark and good rpm from the starter motor.

Filip

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Bruno,

Regarding the fuel pump, please read my earlier post.

You have an original SU fuelpump. Those pumps do break eventually. Mine did last year near francorchamps, so I had to be towed home . In my previous post I gave you the reference of the pump you need as a replacement. This is also an identical SU fuelpump, but with the difference that the points ( contacts) inside are changed by a transistor. This is much more relia. ble. No need to change anything and on the outside they are the same. This is the link : https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ075L0001.htm?currency=5

To test if your pump is OK : Disconnect your fuelline on top of the first carburator. Thake a glass jar and put the fuelline in there. Now put the ignition contact on ( position 2) and the pump should start ticking in a very persuasive manner, pumping fuel in the jar. If you let the contact on it will fill up the jar in no time. If it isn't doing that, change it.

On your car this pump fills up the carburator bowls.The floater in the carburator is going up until a needlevalve shuts down the inlet and the fuelpump does sense resistance and stops filling automatically. The ticking stops.

Putting the fuelline in an open jar, makes the pump ticking and pumping until your gastanks are empty....It should tick(pump) in a rithm of at least 3 to 4 ticks a second and please let it fill up the bowl to make sure it is doing its job proper. I first tried to clean contacts inside an all sorts of stuff. It worked, but some days later, problems again so I decided to renew it with a transitorized one. The ticking and pumping is much stronger now.

regarding your earth.

Well done. Make sure that the negative and positive poles are always making very good and firm contact. I see that the one thick cable from the battery is connected to the usual point on the engine. On mine there is a second thick cable going from the battery to the chassis. This is really important, because most electrical negatives in the car are connected somewhere to the chassis and so the chassis needs to be connected to the - pole of the battery ( as is the engine). Maybe on your car there is somewhere a connection between engine and chassis, but I really do advise you to connect a second thick wire to the chassis.

20180426_080114.jpg

20180426_080259.jpg

Edited by gvy

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Thanks for all these information.

I've just ordered the new fuel pump, but in the meantime I'll check what's wrong with the current one (or something else that stop the motor to start) , but to be honest I don't trust it anymore… but at least investigating on my current issue will teach me a little bit about my car :-)

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OK, I've just done some test yesterday : no spark at the plugs. :blush:

1. I presume I've to check what's outgoing from the 
High Tension Coil. Is there a way to control that? I'm not sure as it is supposed to be HIGH voltage?

2. I've use a not so good tool to remove one plug (removing things is alway easy…), but now I have issue to put it back : it fall too easily and I'm not sure to bring correctly the plug in the hole. Because of that, I do not dare tighten the plug, I'm afraid to break the thread :cry: …any good tool/advice to do it easily/safety?

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