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Replacing pipes through the chassis on a V8... without removing the engine?


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  • Gold FFM

You ain’t getting them pipes out with the engine in. It’s out now - so pull them out 👍

Only here once

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You make a good point Steve, I will put on my big boy pants and get the old bus rolling.  

While out and about, you met Richard Hammond, who then made an offer you could not refuse to provide much needed spares package for his S350

That's the closest to deserving a beer.       It only went a passed an MOT !!! 🙃 I took it in to get a todo list without checking anything myself beyond the obvious and they g

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  • Gold FFM

Oh the pipes are coming out and so if everything else on the chassis (unless a spanner gets thrown into the works somehow). I’ll be interested to know how you get on with the stainless option, maybe I should ask you now to get two sets made? 
cheers

-Chris

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  • Gold FFM

On the S4s you have the following 

 2 fat ones. 1560mm long x 1.5”

4 skinny ones 1620mm long x 5/8”

I’ve looked at SJ - for a set it’s like £290 plus postage !!

i will let you know how I get on - but it’s likely my source wont be able to supply wholesale as these will be offcuts 😬 

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  • Gold FFM
On 17/05/2020 at 23:02, cweeden said:

So I guess it is time for an update and possibly change the title of the thread. I still don't know if the pipes in the chassis can be replaced without removing the engine because the engine is out again. I decided it was time to take the plunge and renovate as much as possible in one long concerted effort. The plan is to rebuild the engine, separate the body from the chassis and refresh all of the running gear, tackle the radiators and as may rusted brackets, nuts and bolts as possible. I am going to blame @Mightymetro for showing me up for my lack of effort and tenacity.

So far the engine is out, partially stripped and everything including the heads and sump are off. I need to gather the Lotus specific engine tools and a few more generic ones before I can continue pulling it apart. In the meantime I have measured the bores and need some advice regarding the serviceability of the liners (although I think I probably know the answer). One of the tools I need to purchase is a 75-100mm micrometer so I cannot measure the actual size of the bores to know if they are grade A or B but I have been able to take relative measurements and see the variation of the bores.

Following the manual I decided to measure at depths of ~10mm, 30mm and 60mm and at three angles across the bore at each depth leading to a table of relative measurements, on its own it was awkward to read so I created a second table showing the variations (in mm) more clearly (ignore the colours). As you can see they do not seem to be very round but are fairly consistent up and down the bore.

image.png.874e6f924bc6103321c119ea682c39ab.png              image.png.e55ab7bff6c5d8448284522299681872.png

Now the service manual states that A grade liners are 83.000 - 83.015 and grade B are 83.015 - 83.030, this suggests that the tolerances are very tight and seeing variation within on liner of over 0.030mm is not good and on that summation only liner #8 is worth saving. This is all despite the fact that all liners look really good with honing marks very visible and no ridges at the top of travel detectable.

So if I was just looking at them I would happily re-use the liners but on this evidence I don't think I should, what does the collective wisdom of the forum think, especially those with engine building experience ( @mike_sekinger, @CHANGES etc 🙂 ).

Many thanks. 

-Chris

 

@mike_sekinger do these liners look shot to you or is that variation expected on liners after a bit of use?

Thanks

-Chris

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Although you do not have actual bore measurement, I would not consider re-using those liners.  You appear to have some fairly signification variations both between and within the cylinders.

I'm assuming here that you are still planning to rebuild with a set of forged pistons manufactured for the low end of the bore range - meaning 83.000?

 

 

1996 Esprit V8, 1998 Esprit V8 GT, 1999 Esprit S350 #002 (Esprit GT1 replica project), 1996 Esprit V8 GT1 (chassis 114-001), 1992 Lotus Omega (927E), 1999 Esprit V8SE, 1999 Esprit S350 #032, 1995 Esprit S4s, 1999 Esprit V8 GT (ex-5th Gear project), 1999 Esprit V8SE ('02 rear)

1999 S350 #002 Esprit GT1 replica

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  • Gold FFM

Hi @mike_sekinger,

Thanks for the reply, I was afraid you would say that, such a shame as they look great. I had a chat with Phil at SWLC today about the pistons and he nearly persuaded me that stock would be fine but there is not point going into the engine and not doing the best I can. An old quote that gets banded about within my group of petrol head friends is "never replace, always upgrade", so yes forged pistons it is. Unfortunately SWLC are out of stock, having sold about 6x set since Christmas. Looks like I need to have a chat with JAE.

I've contacted Westwood and they have a set of 83.000 liners ready to go. Do I remember correctly that you think the nip is different with the Westwood liners? In what way and what needs to be done to mange the difference successfully?

Thanks

-Chris

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Which version of the Westwood liner did you order?  L5188?

I've never heard of them having these on stock.  Usually it's 5-6 weeks waiting time-

1996 Esprit V8, 1998 Esprit V8 GT, 1999 Esprit S350 #002 (Esprit GT1 replica project), 1996 Esprit V8 GT1 (chassis 114-001), 1992 Lotus Omega (927E), 1999 Esprit V8SE, 1999 Esprit S350 #032, 1995 Esprit S4s, 1999 Esprit V8 GT (ex-5th Gear project), 1999 Esprit V8SE ('02 rear)

1999 S350 #002 Esprit GT1 replica

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  • Gold FFM

I've not ordered anything yet, this is what they wrote...

"We have made 83.00mm liners for the Lotus V8 for a number of customer in the past year.  We have a set in stock with a fully finished 83.00mm bore in our Ductile material @ £135.00 Each + VAT.

We have done 4 sets of these in the past year, so they seem to work!!"

Is L5188 the correct part number for the 918?

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L5188 is the design based on the standard liner - this will have some stand-in.

There's another version which eliminate that stand-in.

1996 Esprit V8, 1998 Esprit V8 GT, 1999 Esprit S350 #002 (Esprit GT1 replica project), 1996 Esprit V8 GT1 (chassis 114-001), 1992 Lotus Omega (927E), 1999 Esprit V8SE, 1999 Esprit S350 #032, 1995 Esprit S4s, 1999 Esprit V8 GT (ex-5th Gear project), 1999 Esprit V8SE ('02 rear)

1999 S350 #002 Esprit GT1 replica

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L5188 was used in Sacha and Simons engines.  That will be the version that Westwood have on stock.  Go for that.

Stand-in is a nip below the block face.

1996 Esprit V8, 1998 Esprit V8 GT, 1999 Esprit S350 #002 (Esprit GT1 replica project), 1996 Esprit V8 GT1 (chassis 114-001), 1992 Lotus Omega (927E), 1999 Esprit V8SE, 1999 Esprit S350 #032, 1995 Esprit S4s, 1999 Esprit V8 GT (ex-5th Gear project), 1999 Esprit V8SE ('02 rear)

1999 S350 #002 Esprit GT1 replica

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The coefficient of expansion for the ductile liner is less than the cast liners and the LM25TF alloy of the block/heads.  There is potential for a greater gasket clamp for higher boost applications.

You are running stock boost, so I would go for the standard design.

1996 Esprit V8, 1998 Esprit V8 GT, 1999 Esprit S350 #002 (Esprit GT1 replica project), 1996 Esprit V8 GT1 (chassis 114-001), 1992 Lotus Omega (927E), 1999 Esprit V8SE, 1999 Esprit S350 #032, 1995 Esprit S4s, 1999 Esprit V8 GT (ex-5th Gear project), 1999 Esprit V8SE ('02 rear)

1999 S350 #002 Esprit GT1 replica

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  • Gold FFM

Hmm, I do have the red code so boost is up a little, hopefully that won't be significant enough to be a problem. If installing the ones that eliminate the nip I expect different head gaskets would be needed or maybe some machining of the head? 😯

On another topic, I was advised that whenever the heads are removed they 'must' be skimmed before they are re-fitted. It was the first time I had heard that, what is your view?

cheers

-Chris

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