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Grenfell inquiry


PhilW

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While on a very different scale, my son's house burnt down a couple of years ago, he made the front page of the local papers for dragging someone out of the fire and the red cross bought them pizza. 

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This was an absolute tragedy and I totally agree that those responsible for cutting costs and underfunding the renovation should be jailed.

Only......for me they are going after the wrong people. They are currently blaming the Cladding company and local Council, when they should be concentrating on the Govt Officials who are responsible for council funding. Central Govt first then local council planners who decided to use the little money they got to buy substandard materials.

Instead the Cladding company is being targetted, then the head of the council. Someone needs to answer at Central Govt level for underfunding local councils in the first place and then the people directly responsible for this decision, whether they be a bean counter or a planning officer. Except we all know local councils have to get approval from Finance for everything so make sure those in their ivory tower get held responsible as well.

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They had a guy on the radio the orher morning who had spent the lastyear looking into the Grenfell fire and he had cocnluded the council was not to blame and had not cut costs. After all £8.6 million seems plenty to do a decent job

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Some poor decisions made by various disconnected parties led to a perfect storm for unfortunate residents.  let's hope that the right lessons can be learnt - sprinklers and real time judgement on "stay put" or "evacuate" by the fire service?

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I am on the fence really. The human tragedy is just phenomenal and so difficult to comprehend.

What we are in danger of doing... and I say this carefully as I am new to the forum... is creating another "Hillsborough". 

The enquiry will sit, will draw conclusions, and there may be criminal proceedings. What I hope for at the end of it is some invisible line, where the dead are left to rest in peace and we are not perpetually hearing "justice for Grenfell". At some point in time it will have to draw to a close and be consigned, hopefully, to the history books, with appropriate lessons learned. I fear what we may get is a constant martydom by the survivors and campaigners that has no reachable end.

 

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I just heard on the news The Met are considering criminal charges against the fire service for the “stay put” this genuinely ridiculous I know two firemen and both have seen and done some horrific things, I couldn’t do it. There is no way they would have said stay put if they didn’t think that the building was meant to be constructed in the correct way. 

This is down to the council, the spec and building control who signed the work off. The contractors should know better but as @Barrykearley will confirm I don’t think I have ever seen a fire barrier not compromised in 30 years. 

Sprinklers are the only answer along with 2no escape routes. I was in a new refurbed building in Leeds yesterday full of staff ( I won’t mention the company, but we tax payers pay for it) fire doors wedged open with cardboard, risers with comprimised fire barriers which ironically looked like it was by the fire alarm company. 

I have said this before but during 911, I think it was City Bank but I might be wrong, got all their employees out because their fire Marshall was so anal about fire drills that at the first fire alarm they all left in an orderly manner. 

Any fire alarm anywhere and I promise you I am the first out every time. 

Just my two pennies worth 

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Yup - always compromised somewhere. And often covered in flammable material as well.

it is a joke - this would have been put out to tender - with a spec laid down in that tender.  The companies would/should have fitted to that spec.

this absolutely stinks. Local building control is ALWAYs a complete joke

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5 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Local councils are underfunded until the time comes for them to build or move into a new swanky office or headquarters.  The Councils are given money from Central Government and make money from their own activities, from parking, from council tax and the like. If they fooking choice to waste it on themselves (and oh please believe me they do with non jobs, early retirement packages and extended sick etc etc etc) and put their residents lives at risks by cutting corners they should be ready to take the consequences. THEY make the decisions at the end of the day and if they had not checked on the cladding or ignored the warning then they should face the consequences. 

As for going after the cladding company, as long as they can show they did not misrepresent their product, or falsify tests etc. they should be fine. It's a bit like going after a supermarket for selling a 25 year old a bread knife that they then decide to hack someone to death with?  The supermarket, like the cladding company, could not and should not be held accountable if a product they have sold is used incorrectly (unless of course they installed it!).

It's easy to blame it all on central government, who, let's be honest are currently the most feckless bunch of twits in existence. But often the blame IS more local as that is where the detail of the decisions / choices are made.

Go back to the OP's first post - the fooking local authority did not even know who the hell was living there!!!   Complete and utter shambles at best in my very humble opinion and the people who have committed fraud for personal gain after this appalling tragedy should be kicked out of the country, after they have repaid every penny in either cash or hard labour in a labour camp!

@C8RKH don’t even get me on the last bit, that is so disgusting I cannot even comprehend anyone who would make money out of other people’s death and misery, there are an awful lot of words in the English language but even the “C” word is not adequate. 

As Barry said above this building fire compartments is great but it only takes one wrong downright, a wrongly sealed fire break and you are truely f&#ked. This is passive fire protection, it will never work in reality. I once had the job of sealing the FT’s computer suite after it had been there for 6 years it took 4 Months and 5 blokes and god knows how many pressure tests. We got it passed but the next day one IT monkey wanting to get a a CAT 6 cable Through and you are back to square one. 

On another note I did also personally manage to shut that whole place down one Saturday morning which is another story and was probably my worse day at work in 33 years. Luckily managed to prove it wasn’t my fault 👍

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Did the local authority not know? Or was it that people had illegally sublet and thus they could never have known? I suspect probably somewhere in the middle. 

 

I totally agree as to Council's wasting money. In Doncaster they've just installed a big yellow "Y" next to a link road. Something akin to the angel of the north but nowhere near as big. That cost 60k reportedly. While that's a drop in the ocean of a council budget, it's still 60k of the resident's money effectively wasted. Now I love a good sculpture, but it's not really visible from further than say 200m and not that big really. 

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7 minutes ago, David85 said:

Did the local authority not know? Or was it that people had illegally sublet and thus they could never have known? I suspect probably somewhere in the middle. 

 

So the council DO KNOW who should have been in there!  Therefore they know who was illegally subletting and therefore you should be able to hit them with the full force of the law for subletting a substandard property!  I do think over time there are some residents (sorry, i mean people who had their name on the council rent book) who must be absolutely shitting themselves right now every time the door gets knocked or the phone rings. And if they are not, then the system is again failing.

We are too bloody soft in this country and people just take the Michael too much. It's time we reclaimed the streets and the Country and anti-social 'stewards like these should be locked up and the key thrown away.  I see the 100 year old Widow who was mugged has now died. FFS, what is going on in this country just now?

Let's put a few portakabins on one of the remote offshore Islands (about 7 miles out should do it) and then throw these scumbags on the Island and leave them to it.  Low cost option. Darwin sorts out the rest. Either way no one swimming back that 7 miles without any equipment. 

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Perhaps a follow up question for people a little older than me then... I now (at 33) see the country getting worse... Is it actually getting worse or do you only start noticing it when you get a bit older?

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1 hour ago, David85 said:

Perhaps a follow up question for people a little older than me then... I now (at 33) see the country getting worse... Is it actually getting worse or do you only start noticing it when you get a bit older?

Yes it is...This country has gone fecking soft. There are too many politicians and officials at local government level who pander to minority groups and the PC brigade instead of looking at the big picture. High level officials are scared to speak up in fear of recrimination, so just go with the flow, nothing gets done, the situation gets worse. Too many people looking after No1. Too much red tape and paperwork where it is of little importance, and the major issues like Grenfell slip through the net. 

So what's done is done, we know exactly what caused the problem, let's prosecute the person that signed off on the cladding...far too simple...instead let's have another fecking 5 year inquiry, let's waste another billion getting the thick twats who put flammable cladding around Grenfell to make their excuses, get a slap on the wrist and move on.

I could go on but the wife is looking a little pissy.... 

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25 minutes ago, Steve V8 said:

I could go on but the wife is looking a little pissy.... 

That’s the V8 ownership - I noticed the same 😞

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1 hour ago, Steve V8 said:

Yes it is...This country has gone fecking soft. There are too many politicians and officials at local government level who pander to minority groups and the PC brigade instead of looking at the big picture. High level officials are scared to speak up in fear of recrimination, so just go with the flow, nothing gets done, the situation gets worse. Too many people looking after No1.

I agree. Coupled with that is the fact we live in an unfortunate era of the early internet, where group social media outrage is enough to oust someone from a job. The protectionism needed then just exacerbates the problem. 

 

At the lower end of the spectrum, as someone mentioned above I think, there is no sense or personal/parental responsibility any more. There is a wide spread mindset that the country/governments owes people something from the get go. Every problem is the fault of the NHS, teachers, police, government etc. 

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11 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

There are too many politicians and officials at local government level

+1

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The idea of too many politicians/officials I think stems from the notion of social mobility/aspiration. It seems there is no longer any "honour", reward or respect for the mundane jobs. Everyone needs to go to Uni, and then coming out of Uni everyone thinks because they've got a Degree they are probably too good for an entry level position. So positions have been invented that are not required or are above what has been done in the past.

Don't get me started on career politicians.

I once had a short holdover job where I interviewed potential Naval Officers. I had one guy come in, whose name I forget, and he was on the local council very young, possibly 25, maybe nearer 30 but young nonetheless. On paper here is a guy who is flying. I asked why he wanted to join the RN and his reasons basically amounted to doing as short a time as possible in order to have "military" experience on his CV to then further his political ambitions. He failed the interview, not for the first reason but for the fact he was a whale omelette. 

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New Labour has an awful lot to be ashamed off. The legacy of their policies are killing us now. 

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The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Couldn't agree more. I am a Conservative voter, which is a strange thing having grown up on a council estate in Doncaster. I'm not a massive fan of the current Govt/PM, but struggle to imagine the chaos were Labour in power now.

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