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is vegan now a race or gender


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Certainly beats a state pension.

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I am a vegetarian since 26 years ago, and also a vegan for a few months every year (for another reason), and I don't import all sorts of foreign stuff if I can avoid it, and I happen to like my Canada

If I cook quinoa I always use a non-stick pan. That way it slides much easier into the bin. 

I’ve recently put my dog on a Vegan diet - So far he’s eaten 3 of the basterds. 🍗

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So Vegans are now protected under law. Wait for the raft of demands "You can't wear leather shoes at work", "I demand you don't eat meat near me", "How dare you mention meat in my hearing" and the law will protect them the same as religion!

Well gosh darned diggedy! What is the world coming to.

I think we need to start the same for Meatism. Demand equal rights. I mean, if Vegans can get it on ethical grounds then Meat eaters should be able to or else its discimination isn't it?

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Just watching the news report on BBC about this case. Apparently the guy won’t even travel on a bus or train in case it hits a bird or animal whilst he’s on it!

FFS really? I mean just really??? Can’t we just shoot people like him and then throw them on the fire to keep us all warm? Would save burning fossil fuels and rid the world of idiots while you’re at it. Win win in my book!image.png.2ccd5c12d474bc757caaf727d6cc396c.png

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Irrespective of his beliefs he no doubt signed an employment contract which included a confidentiality clause which he broke when passing on the information.
Gross misconduct no matter what, he just wants the publicity.

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2 hours ago, Spinney said:

Just watching the news report on BBC about this case. Apparently the guy won’t even travel on a bus or train in case it hits a bird or animal whilst he’s on it!

FFS really? I mean just really??? Can’t we just shoot people like him and then throw them on the fire to keep us all warm? Would save burning fossil fuels and rid the world of idiots while you’re at it. Win win in my book!image.png.2ccd5c12d474bc757caaf727d6cc396c.png

What happens if he is at a salad-ecue and a mozzie decides to latch on for a feed, or if he is at the beach and the midgies decide to descend for a feed?

When he walks instead of taking the bus, does he watch everywhere he steps to ensure he does not stand on any ants?

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

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He can suck his own cock as well as avoid meat??

Only here once

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I think there is already a recognised religion which covers the things he does, its called Jainism. 🙂

It's getting there......

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We can mock but they are doing what they consider right. The problem is @jbuenavides in this country at least, is the constant preaching and telling meat eaters they are wrong and evil. I even had one say to me should would rather I die than a cow because I deserved it for eating flesh.

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23 hours ago, Kimbers said:

We can mock but they are doing what they consider right. The problem is @jbuenavides in this country at least, is the constant preaching and telling meat eaters they are wrong and evil. I even had one say to me should would rather I die than a cow because I deserved it for eating flesh.

The facts are that like every branch of extremism they only listen to, and believe, what fits "their" version of what is good! They ignore the downsides and brush them aside completely.

Some interesting reads that are not funded by the meat industry and provide some perspective are linked to below. The fact is that if everyone switched to a plant based diet it would be an environmental disaster, and, whilst plenty is mentioned about the health impact of animals being fed "medicines" the Vegans say little or nothing about the chemicals that are required to ensure that "their" plant crops are healthy and at the correct yield. Nor do they seem to think it is not an issue taking the crops that form the staple food of other countries populations (Avocado's in Kenya, Quinoa in Chile for instance), pushing them into starvation as they cannot afford to compete with the prices that affluent vegan westerners can pay. They also seem to completly ignore as well the environmental impact of transporting these foodstuffs half way across the world, as opposed to going to their local butcher to buy a few locally grown and slaughtered lamb chops! (to be fair, I never did understand why we imported so much lamb in the past from New Zealand when everywhere I went in Wales, the Lake District etc I saw hunners and hunners of sheep everywhere and no people!).

I have nothing against Vegans, and actually I give them no thought at all, UNTIL that is that they start off with the "activism" shite and try to force, coerce or scare people into their thinking. At that point I tend to look at wonder what they would taste like with a nice honey and sage glaze after a few hours being turned on the spit over a nice oak charcoal fire!    lol.........  (Obviously, for the easily offended I would never really consider roasting and eating a Vegan, it's just figurative thinking/speaking).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html

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3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

They also seem to completly ignore as well the environmental impact of transporting these foodstuffs half way across the world, as opposed to going to their local butcher to buy a few locally grown and slaughtered lamb chops! (to be fair, I never did understand why we imported so much lamb in the past from New Zealand when everywhere I went in Wales, the Lake District etc I saw hunners and hunners of sheep everywhere and no people!).

Chernobyl innit? Even for the Lake District sheep that had a nice view of Sellafield as they grazed each day :P

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3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

.......Obviously, for the easily offended I would never really consider roasting and eating a Vegan, it's just figurative thinking/speaking.........

I'm with you on that, Andy. It's just not worth the effort - most of them will be so under-nourished that there wouldn't be any decent flesh to get your teeth into, just skin and bone. :sofa:

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5 hours ago, C8RKH said:

At that point I tend to look at wonder what they would taste like with a nice honey and sage glaze after a few hours being turned on the spit over a nice oak charcoal fire!    lol.........  (Obviously, for the easily offended I would never really consider roasting and eating a Vegan, it's just figurative thinking/speaking)

Make sure you take their pants off first :sofa:

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5 hours ago, C8RKH said:

 I would never really consider roasting and eating a Vegan, it's just figurative thinking/speaking).

 

Why not? It's the very definition of a vegan diet

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On 03/01/2020 at 15:41, Kimbers said:

So Vegans are now protected under law. Wait for the raft of demands "You can't wear leather shoes at work", "I demand you don't eat meat near me", "How dare you mention meat in my hearing" and the law will protect them the same as religion!

Well gosh darned diggedy! What is the world coming to.

I think we need to start the same for Meatism. Demand equal rights. I mean, if Vegans can get it on ethical grounds then Meat eaters should be able to or else its discimination isn't it?

@Kimbers it's worth calling out that it's a protection for religious beliefs, and that this case was only a relatively low court (if somebody wanted to challenge there are options in the UK legal system), and it's only ETHICAL Vegans /ETHICAL VEGANISM not Vegans/Veganism in general. So, if a person avoids meat & animal products for reasons such as environmental reasons that's not covered, it's only of they do so for moral/philosophical reasons.

Also, the case was in relation to an employment dispute, where both sides claim to be for the benefit of animals, so the point of law above, was only to determine whether there could be a case under persecution due to religious beliefs, if Ethical Veganism wasn't a religion/faith, then the case would have stopped there and then. The defendants didn't dispute whether Ethical Veganism is a belief, so there wasn't really any counter-argument, both sides just let it go the next point which is as somebody mentioned centring on alleged disclosure of information.

 

So it's not that Vegetarianism nor Veganism is a religion, it's that Ethical Veganism is (at present but could be over-turned by another court).

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@Jacques - well said.

I am not, and do not expect to become, a vegetarian but respect your choice to follow that path if you so choose. Even more, I appreciate the fact that you are not using this topic to proselytise your views. I draw a clear distinction between explaining one's position in a reasoned manner, as you have done, and taking a sanctimoniously dogmatic approach as many, although not all, vegans are wont to do. A zealot is a zealot, regardless of the cause espoused.

I agree with your basic point of taking a balanced and reasoned approach to the choices one can make. I follow a similar approach myself although I recognise that  some things I choose to do may not be considered by others to be an optimal course from an environmental or health perspective. Perhaps i can sum it up with a comment that drew a chuckle from my physician during my annual check-up last year when I said that my basic approach was "All things in moderation - and that includes moderation" 

 

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@Jacques - a very good response and well put.  The one thing I will say is that I am unsure how you can be a Vegan for part of the year only - after all, Veganism if I have understood it correctly is based on not using anything (food, clothing, other stuff) that has come directly from an animal. That does seem pretty binary to me, you are either Vegan, or, you are not. During your "Vegan" periods does that mean you don't use your cars that have leather interiors etc?  Not trying to be smart, clever, or intelligent here, just genuinely curious.

I respect the rights and view of vegetarians, vegans, "peskyterians" and any one else.  It is your individual choice and you should be allowed to follow that choice without fear, without hassle, or without abuse.

As you said, " I think a little sensible thinking and acting is in place on both sides. Stupidity and ignorance never led to anything positive for both sides. Being a little considerate and mindful, certainly does." I totally agree with this statement. However, what I will say is that a lot of the reaction you have read on here, aimed at Vegans mostly, is as a result of some of them, by no means all, NOT following your sage and moderate advice. They are NOT being considerate and mindful. They are displaying some signs of stupidity and ignorance (they will never accept anything that contradicts their PoV) and they are not respecting the rights of others to choice, to follow their choice to eat meat in this instance, without fear, without hassle, without abuse.  Vegan activism is on the rise, and they seem to think it is OK to attack people and their property who work in farming, the meat industry etc.

I would also say that yes, there are people out there who eat too much and drink too much etc (oops, need to look in my mirror there!). However, I know plenty of "healthy" vegetarians who have more days off sick from work than the people who excess. Who complain about not having much energy. And, I know several people who did not over indulge, in drugs, in food or in alcohol who have sadly died much too young after long and expensive illnesses. Again, stones can be thrown from every point of view but a non balanced Vegan diet for instance can produce as many long term health issues as one stuffed with too much cholesterol from meat, animal fats and alcohol. Indeed, research tells us that one of the biggest influences for morbidity is our genes, our DNA. Nothing at all to do with life choices for many, though for many the life choices can accelerate or exacerbate (through negative ways) their predisposed conditions, and for some, the positive choices they make can decelerate the growth or commencement of predisposed conditions.

For instance, you would not be surprised to hear that meat eaters have a clinically proven higher risk of heart disease than Vegetarians/Vegans. But would you be surprised to hear that Vegetarians/Vegans have a higher risk of stroke? Both of these illnesses are expensive to treat so do we let the heart attack patients die as they did not look after themselves (according to your thinking in your post) and support the stroke patients to live as presumably they had tried to live a healthier life? (source BMA study of 48,000 people for up to 18 years)

Meat eaters "generally" have more healthy blood, brain,and nervous systems (including better "moods") as they get an abundant supply of B12, iron and choline, which can be lacking in a lot of Vegan/Vegetarian diets. But then meat eaters/non Vegans/Vegetarians are also more likely to be obese and get Diabetes.

So I guess the message for meat eaters and Vegetarians/Vegans is that whatever you do, whatever your beliefs, have a balanced and healthy diet that provides your body with the fat, minerals, energy and vitamins it needs, and the chances are you will, in all scenarios improve the quality of your mental and physical health. But just saying that one is better for you than the other as "blanket statements" of fact is untrue and wrong, as is berating, judging and shouting at one and other over differing belief or value systems.

I'm always up for a debate, but to be effective I find it's not best to take the morale high ground but to try to consider things from several points of view to ensure you get a full balanced picture.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Personally, I go see my family doctor once every 2 years and have blood tests etc done to see if I lack anything or some other things show up. Nothing. Perfectly healthy and not lacking any minerals, vitamins or other things. While I am a vegetarian, I think it's good for everyone to do so, no matter what they eat. For example I live in a heavily polluted (diesel) city. And by bicycling every day in this shitty air, I risk slowly destroying my lungs. Or at least there is a higher chance thereof.

you're right about genes, but let's just say very simplified, that many diseases are dormant, and need specific conditions to come into play, to develop. When for example the liver is cleaning blood for waste and toxins, is on overload because of air pollution, food, alchohol, tobacco, cleaning agents, impregnation agents, paint and so on (thousands), it will only work up to a point, and from there on it "recycles" toxins back to the bloodveens and they float around inside you and make deposits here and there, where the cells natural metabolism changes and there arise certain forms of cancer. There are several studies on the matter and books on the subject written by scientist and doctors. I have three friends who like me worked a lot on engines when younger, never wearing protective gloves for example. I was the only one doing that. Now, they all three have serious skin problems with the skin simply falling apart on their hands and fingers, not healing, or in any case, very very slowly. But we were young, couldn't die and didn't listen to the grown ups, shat on the warning labels and now they pay for their mistake. Or a friend of mine who, when young, wanted to grow muscles fast, so he could be a beach lion, taking pills and injecting himself with strange substances. He then sufered two heart attacks and stopped that. Now, the doctors told him that his heart have been damaged permanently, and that because he have a long line of heart problems in his family, he most likely will die 15 years or so, prematurely. Both his brothers and his farther died of a weak heart. While he did take the crap, his sister begged him many times over and over to stay away from taking that crap, but he didn't listen. He now have to take pills to stabilise his heart plus painkillers for the arthritis that was a byproduct of the original "smart in a hurry" pills, which again weakens his liver. Oh well, the choices we make... We all do it sometimes.

Point is, to be a little bit moderate and take a little care. Personally, I have a lot of energy and restitute very quickly from say a long bicyclerace or up and down a mountain for many hours, or just long days of work. My twin brother eats lots of meat, less vegetables and drinks some alcohol, although not much. He is down on energy, fat, feeling big, tired and looses his good mood easily because of his general health. He also suffers from podagra (don't know the english word for it), and this is further promoted by his lack of excercise, too much meat, alchohol and lack of vegetables. His choice and free to do so. He get so pissed when someone mentions this to him, because he in reality regrets it, thereby making his mood less good, which again weakens his willpower to do something about it.

No, I don't advocate not treating patients of any disease just because they are obese, skinny vegans or what ever. Any person can fall ill, and anyone can change his or her mind and regret a certain choice and do their best to mend it futurewise. Everyone should have that choice. Everyone. My farther died of smoking. Yes, I know that there will always be someone who have a friend whose grandmother became 300 years old all while smoking a hundred cigarettes evey single day, wth no ill effect. You get the point. But the reality for all the rest of us is quite the opposite. So, he smoked 30 or more every day from 12 y.o. to 70. Then he had a heart attack and survived by operation. The doctors told him to stop now or die soon after. He stopped. But by that time, there were many problems with his body because of all these years of smoking, but the most severe or acute was that his lungs were so bad because of the chemicals in cigarettes making many small enfyseems that were very brittle and punctured, so his lungs collapsed one time after the other. He went through 5 major operations on both lungs and survived. Soon after he simply had no more lung capasity and sufforcated and died in terrible pain. He was able to speak up to about the last day before passing away. He made his choices and took responsability for them. But it's also fair to say that he was very sorry that he only saw one of his grand children, and that he now left his wife in great sorrow for years to come. I have seen that in many other cases again and again. I've wittnessed how people cough up parts of their stomach, lungs or part of the esophagus all while crying to their family that they were so sorry for the bad choices they had made in the past. All the family could do was telling their loved one, that they forgave him (or her) and shed some tears. As humans I think we can only inform and try to talk over other people by explanation and trying to appeal to their consciousness to be a little moderate and try to stay healthy and to make sound choices in general.

By stating I am a vegan, I have the following explanation of the term: eating habits. Nothing to do with having a leather interrior or what ever shoes I wear or the like. It's about what you eat only. On top of that may come other convictions about what one would like to do or not to do. If someone chooses to refrain from anything takes from animals, so be it, but it's not being a vegan in my humble view. It's a further standpoint. If one look it up, there are as many people writing about the subjects, as there are people on the Earth. That doesn't make any of it true. It's just oppinions. I have my oppinion, and it's about what I eat. I refrain from eating anything from animals and alchohol some 40 days a few times a year. I really like milk and used to drink a lot of it every day, plus yoghurt etc, but I try to keep it a little down, as I also do with fruitjuice, because all the acid that later item contains, is not very healthy for the intestines and the teeth.Now, drinking less milk but still enjoying it, I have less slime in the lungs and I am nearly never ill. Far less than any of my colleagues - we are around 70 persons.

Of course there will be plenty of health problems for vegetarians and vegans as well. It's only natural to get a disease and eventually some will die of it. I merely think about trying to give the best basis for all the systems in my body to function well, not working overtime or even being out of order/dysfunctional.

I believe there is enough problems in the world already. No reason to promote any more, because of ones wish to minimalise slaughtering animals or what ever. I don't think it helps anything to make a big protest in London some two years ago against Canada Goose clothing, physically attacking passers by, just because they wore a Canada Goose jacket. Same people who protest, also use plastic bags, eat meat, throw garbage in the nature, change their complete wardrobe every 6 months, and many many other things - choose yourself. It's not one incident. It's the sum of all things that make a problem. When it becomes excessive. A little mindfullness and considderation might be in order here. I don't mind other peoples chioces, as long as they don't put strain on or hurt other people. It's their free will and choice. I hope that someone will like me or you or whoever, not for what we eat, but for the humans we are.

Kind regards,

jacques

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Well it's started. Just seeing Vegan posts on FB blaming meat eaters for destroying everyone with Corona Virus! 
 

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That's OK. If the food shortages get really bad I'll just start eating vegans!

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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They hold no nutritional value.

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