Just Fitted Winter Tyres - thoughts and musings

[blueg33]

Looking at the weather forecasts it looks like my regular drive will now be in air temps below 6 deg C for the next few months.  As the MPSS’s were becoming increasingly lively especially on the white lines I have swapped them for my set of wheels with the Lotus specified Yokohama Wintrac’s. 

These fit on the smaller rims 18 and 19 inch rather than the 19 and 20’s for the summer set.  

Immediately I notice that turn in is faster, must be the smaller wheels, ride is smoother, (Better than my Audi A6 or the wife’s Octavia Scout).  Road noise is worse and the speedometer now over reads by 6-7mph rather than 2-3mph.

Grip in the cold is much better with the car feeling more stable especially crossing those white lines.  On a warm dry road the MPSS grip more but these winter tyres breakaway more progressively and with more notice to the driver.

i can vouch for them in the snow too as I used them last year.

The smaller wheels make the brake discs look bigger and in many ways give the car a lower racier look.

These tyres are narrower than the summers and the rears look a little stretched on the rim.  This means no protection for the wheel rim and one of my winter wheels bears the scars to prove it.

Conclusion, the winter tyres do their job and change the car a bit  I love the sharper turn in and got the less racy winter drives the more compliant ride is nice   But for me, you can’t beat summer temps and nice grippy MPSS  tyres.

 

 

[Steffen_Leitgeb-LSWGmbh]

Sharper turn in is due to reduced rotating mass (smaller rim diameter and weight, wheel weight of Lotus forged originals is 9,5 kg 18" to 10,5 kg 19").
A more heavy wheel with and even bigger rim diameter wants to go straight and doesn´t like to change direction.
Also the dynamic tyre radius at lower speeds or under (street) braking pressure is smaller with the 18"s vs. the 19"s.  
Even without loading up the front you can feel this in the Evora as the nose gets a little more more weight and the Evora feels more stable and at the same time more agile at the front.

But if you would increase the speed to higher speeds and more sporty driving the 19" would beat the 18" on turning in while braking due to the stiffer tyre, higher grip and higher steering precision and driver feedback.
This is shown in several press tests - street tyres (and most club sport tires) need stiff and low outside walls. 

If you want the car more agile, high grip and perfect feedback choose 19" and 20" then simply add lightness and camber.

Changing something simple like rims and tyres can change the whole car 🙂 

[jep]

Nick, what size of Yoko W Drive V902 (which in my handbook is the recommended tyre) have you fitted? For my 2010 Evora, the handbook lists 215/40/18 and 245/35 R19 but Yoko no longer do 245/35 R19. I would like to fit winter tyres but it seems very few owners do and Bell and Colvill said they have never fitted any to an Evora. If you travel in Germany Nov to Apr, it is law to have them fitted. And advisory in most Euro countries. I quite fancy a Euro trip early next year and having hit black ice in the UK last month, winter tyres seem a sensible option.

[Bravo73]

To @jep, plenty of us use winter tyres during the colder months. Here is a recent thread with recommendations:

The Yokos will be quite old tyre tech now (10ish years old). Personally, I would hunt down a set of the Continentals. 

[jep]

Thanks Jonny and noted on the Conti's, which on the video link is spoken about as good enough for all season. I did read that thread previously. I think where I am confused is the different sizes quoted in the handbook for winter tyres Vs summer tyres, and then matching the options to get the same tyre pattern for all four corners. I wondered which sizes of winter tyres folks had opted for (Steffen went 215/255). I may go the compromise route, all season in the factory fitted tyre size (225 front, 255 rears). Vredestein Quatrec 5 all season (Y rated=186mph) at £109 fronts, £161 rears. As I don't attempt to find the limit of traction on public roads, I am hoping the compromise will not be noticeable for road use. I have fitted Nankang winter tyres to other vehicles and have ended up leaving them on for summer as they are so good but I hesitate to alter factory advised tyres on any Lotus. Hence input from others much appreciated. 

[blueg33]

8 hours ago, jep said:

Nick, what size of Yoko W Drive V902 (which in my handbook is the recommended tyre) have you fitted? For my 2010 Evora, the handbook lists 215/40/18 and 245/35 R19 but Yoko no longer do 245/35 R19. I would like to fit winter tyres but it seems very few owners do and Bell and Colvill said they have never fitted any to an Evora. If you travel in Germany Nov to Apr, it is law to have them fitted. And advisory in most Euro countries. I quite fancy a Euro trip early next year and having hit black ice in the UK last month, winter tyres seem a sensible option.

Mine are as per the handbook. I bought a set of Evora wheels with them already mounted. They were brand new about  3 years ago

[Dave Eds]

Mine too!

[Bravo73]

41 minutes ago, blueg33 said:

I bought a set of Evora wheels with them already mounted.

To @jep, if you chose that route, there are a couple of options in the classifieds:

https://www.lotusforsale.com/ads/full-set-18-prorace-1-3-alloys-with-winter-tyres/

https://www.lotusforsale.com/ads/forged-evora-wheels-with-new-yokohama-winter-tyres/

[jep]

Thanks re classified. It now depends if I go All Season or Winter. The All Season options are limited if you stick to 225/255. I am intrigued to see how an All Season tyre fares on a Lotus (without track use) so may give that a go, willingly knowing it could be a mistake. If it suits my driving though, it will save me switching tyres twice a year.

[Bravo73]

Any plans to track your car during the summer? If so, I would definitely recommend a UHP summer tyre (such as the Michelin Pilot 4/S). 

By the nature of its design, an all season tyre is going to be a compromise. Not quite as good as a summer tyre in the summer nor a winter tyre in the winter. However, it will be better than a summer tyre in winter and, obviously, vice versa. (I’ve got a set of CrossClimate+ on my M3. The ‘Beast from the East’ didn’t leave me stuck once last year, as I went sailing past SUVs on summer tyres). 

[jep]

No plans to track the car. I don't think Michelin Cross Climate+ all season are available in 245 or 255. Hence my Vredestein option. If the Michelin were available in sizes required, I would most likely opt for those over Vredestein (which surveys suggest are not class leading for an all season tyres in winter, as tread pattern similar to a summer tyre). Having said that, I don't need to use Evora in snow/ice deliberately, it is only if I get caught out and have no option. It is mainly to (a) ensure I can use in Germany Nov to Apr to comply with legislation (b) peace of mind as I do like to use the car during the winter months.

[Bravo73]

With the Crossclimates, I think that you will struggle with tyre diameter, rather than width. The last time that I looked, Michelin only did them up to 17”. 

[jep]

Correct re 19 but you can get 18. I was just abbreviating but you cannot get Michelin XC+ 245/35/19 or 255/35/19 from my brief research. You can get 225/40/18. And they are speed rated to 186mph. Conti TS860 winter tyres (which reviews say work well as an all season) are limited to 149mph.

[rallyesax]

All season tires would be a mistake to keep all year long on a car like a Lotus. It really kills the driving experience of a sports car with such a chassis when winter is gone.

It's great for a daily car (golf, opel....) but keep them or winter tires for winter time only on an Evora 😉

As you mentionned, MI Cross Climate do not exist in this size range. Only Michelin Pilot All Season probably do. It's a product developped for the US market (where they love A/S tires) but homologated worldwide. 

My 2 cents... Go for Winter tires, what ever premium Brand 😉

[122]

Has anyone noticed the mud flaps scraping on speed humps where the hadn't before, with the 215/40 / 245/35 tyres fitted?

Must have been marginal before as the sidewall height difference is only 4mm.

[jep]

I don't think Michelin Pilot All Season are available in 255/35/19. I have ordered the Vredestein Quatrec all season. This will do the job of complying with German legislation and MAY be ok for UK summers. I will keep my summer tyres in any event. I agree with sentiments about messing with the Lotus ride and handling by fitting All Season tyres. It is an experiment and one I am willing to concede is not the path to go. Time will tell. 

[electro_boy]

Anyone able to point me to a test done with summer tyres in cold buy dry conditions to see how performance carries with temperature? 

I’ve been looking at a few of the test results on tyrereviews.co.uk and looks like in dry and wet conditions the braking distance is significantly less with their control summer tyres. 

Its really just the snow braking and handling where the winter tyre wins out. Even the aqua plane test the summer tyre wins.

This seems contratry to the usual advice given of “if the temp is below 7c a winter tyre is better”

The all season tyres fair better in dry and wet tests than the full winters but still behind the summer tyres.

In the south of England we rarely get snow that lingers around on the road, maybe a few days a year.  So it’s cold days with either dry or wet roads conditions that I’m buying tyres for. I was thinking of getting some all season tyres or winter tyres but now I’m rethinking after seeing the test results? 

Anyone able to counter my train of thought? Or have I misinterpreted the data? 

[pete]

On 29/12/2018 at 20:48, Dave Eds said:

Mine too!

What they like on black ice😈

[Bruss]

23 hours ago, electro_boy said:

Anyone able to point me to a test done with summer tyres in cold buy dry conditions to see how performance carries with temperature? 

I’ve been looking at a few of the test results on tyrereviews.co.uk and looks like in dry and wet conditions the braking distance is significantly less with their control summer tyres. 

Its really just the snow braking and handling where the winter tyre wins out. Even the aqua plane test the summer tyre wins.

This seems contratry to the usual advice given of “if the temp is below 7c a winter tyre is better”

The all season tyres fair better in dry and wet tests than the full winters but still behind the summer tyres.

In the south of England we rarely get snow that lingers around on the road, maybe a few days a year.  So it’s cold days with either dry or wet roads conditions that I’m buying tyres for. I was thinking of getting some all season tyres or winter tyres but now I’m rethinking after seeing the test results? 

Anyone able to counter my train of thought? Or have I misinterpreted the data? 

I've not run all season tyres on the Evora , and wouldn't. The Evora is a performance car. In the dry and in the tyres performance temperature window I want the best performing tyres I can get to reflect the Evora's sports performance.  If I want to drive it outside of the tyres operating window I put the best tyres on for temperature and that is 'winter' tyres. Don't forget winter tyres are NOT SNOW tyres, get some plastic chains if you want to hoon about in the occasional southern UK snow.

On the other hand my shopping BMW 1 series does have m&s tyres on all year round, but it's not a performance car.

 

 

 

[Techyd]

23 hours ago, electro_boy said:

Its really just the snow braking and handling where the winter tyre wins out. Even the aqua plane test the summer tyre wins.

Wow - I'd would think that can't be right.  I would have expected a winter tyre to a) have much greater ability to disperse water (and therefore resistence to aquaplaning is improved) and b) the tyre compound designed to provide better grip in lower temperatures.

For me that's the two primary features of a winter tyre; maybe have a look at some of the autoexpress reviews as well.

3 minutes ago, Bruss said:

BMW 1 series does have m&s tyres on all year round

Marks and Spencer? 😋

[Bruss]

52 minutes ago, Techyd said:

Wow - I'd would think that can't be right.  I would have expected a winter tyre to a) have much greater ability to disperse water (and therefore resistence to aquaplaning is improved) and b) the tyre compound designed to provide better grip in lower temperatures.

For me that's the two primary features of a winter tyre; maybe have a look at some of the autoexpress reviews as well.

Marks and Spencer? 😋

Only when I can't get Waitrose  (mud and snow)

[electro_boy]

Take a look at the results of the various test results for winter and all season tyres.   Often the tests are performed with a reference summer tyre and reference all season / winter tyre too.

https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2018-Autobild-UHP-Winter-Tyre-Test.htm

https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2018-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

https://www.evo.co.uk/features/13761/best-winter-tyres-2018

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/winter-driving-special/93097/winter-tyres-test-best-tyre-brands-reviewed

In dry and wet conditions the braking, handling and aquaplaning scores the summer tyre and all season tyre often score better than the winter tyres.  Summer tyres loose out massively in the snow and ice tests but the all seasons are mid pack.  Hence why I'm thinking of going for an all season tyre.  The conditions found in Hertfordshire are rarely snowy over winter so I'm happy to compromise on snow performance.  It's usually single digit temperatures with a mix of dry and wet, the all season tyre shows comparable performance in dry to the summer tyre and better performance in the wet compared to summer and winters?

I was set on getting a winter tyres but I'm now more confused than before and thinking an all season tyre might be better for me? 

[Bibs]

@electro_boy, have a read of this

https://www.thelotusforums.com/latest-news/long-term-tests/lotus-evora-long-term-test-winter-tyres/

Rather than being written by a journo, it's an interview with Matt Becker who used to be the Chief Engineer of Vehicle Attributes at Lotus and developed all of the ride & handling characteristics of the Evora.

[Bravo73]

4 minutes ago, electro_boy said:

Hence why I'm thinking of going for an all season tyre.

 

Personally, I would listen to the opinion of a professional:

 

By it's very nature, an all season tyre is going to be a compromise. It's understandable that winter performance could be compromised, but do you really want to compromise summer performance (vs a UHP summer tyre)?

If you want to drive your Evora properly during the winter, get a set of the Continentals. Then swap back to decent summer tyres (PS4S) when it warms up. (Don't think of it as costing you twice as much - think of it as your decent (expensive) summer tyres lasting twice as long).

[electro_boy]

Thanks guys will have a read of those links.

For clarification, I was always proposing running two tyres but was thinking of using an all season tyre as my winter tyre as its dry weather performance is far better than the winter tyres.  For sure when the temps warm up again I will be running my usual PS4.  Cost is not an issue its safety and performance that are my main objectives.